The car idles like it is stock, but...it hesitated really bad above 3500 (and the safc is -50 across the board) and unfortunatly..i had a dyno scheduled today..so i had to dyno with no revs above 3500 ( i did get 200 at the wheels) and then we got back to the shop..relized that there was alot of oil on the plugs..so we cleaned them off..and cleaned the wires..and now the car runs really strong..till about 5500 where it is hesitating now...there still may be a lil moisture on teh plugs..and i might need new plugs and wires..but any ideas? wasnt idle the only problem we would have with 550+cc's?

You sound about right.... The idle *should* be the only problem with bigger injectors... And anyway at 5500rpm you should definitely be under full boost, so your car will need all th extra fuel.

What boost are you running though? If you are running too little, then there may be a problem... But I really don't think its that..

Put new, clean spark plugs and keep us updated! Good Luck.

Say, what Injectors are you using??

Guy
RS_Guy



Damn the waiting..... It Sucks! 6.5 months counting...
GTuned.com is Basically Ready!!!

rsXboy99: What FMU are you using???? If it's the SFMU what fuel pressure curve disk are you using in the SFMU?? have you checked your fuel pressure under boost???? how much boost are you running??? I bet it's an easy fix :)

IM using the one that came with the star stage 2 kit ? It is still stuttering pretty bad even with new plugs and wires..i just dont no whats up with it..it idles like stock..and my damn alternator belt broke again!!! for the 3rd time in a week..what is up with this?!?!

You really have to turn down the fuel pressure down.
Running 12:1 FMU and 600cc injectors will cause a really
rich mixture. you said you hit 200hp @ 3500rpm ?! what was
your boost setting ?

with those 600cc injectors you only need a 1:1 or a 2:1 regulator along with your s-afc

Good luck!

You have WAY WAY to much fuel with the Star FMU! You need to get the Super FMU from Vortech! It's adjustible and you can turn it down! That's your problem, the 12:1 FMU :(

so i have 12;1 W/ star kit? and all i need is some new regulator..and ishould be ok? how much are they.

Wait! Why does he even need a Fuel Pressure-Riser??? Isn't the stock one good enough???? I know that my car has a stock one... or is it just 'cos its a '95?

BTW I am never ceased to be amazed, 600ccs AND 12:1 fpr... and the car STILL idles.. man....

Guy
RS_Guy



Damn the waiting..... It Sucks! 6.5 months counting...
GTuned.com is Basically Ready!!!

well the 12:1 FMU aint doing jack at idle and the AFCs at -50% so thats why it idles. The SuperFMU is about $300. At one time Wyatt ran 440cc injectors/12:1 FMU with the AFC set at -30% and that seemed like pushing it. Look at it this way with 320cc injectors a 4:1 regulator is ideal. You have nearly twice the injector size and a regulator with 3X the ratio.


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

So what do i need then? should i take the 12:1 off? or just i get a 2:1 .. 3:1 what? and if i just need a set amout like a 3:1 do i need to get the adjustable one..or can i just get a 3:1?

the star kit comse with a vortech 12:1 fmu..if i am not mistaken, so then could i buy the "recalibration" kit that drops it to 3:1? which would save me alot of money...also..isnt leaning out the afc to -50 and dropping the fuel pressure kind of defeating the purpose of larger injectors?

The 3:1 with the AFC should do you fine to a limit (dont know how high a limit that is). I dont know how much savings it is though if you factor $300 (MSRP so less if you shop) for the SuperFMU and $100 if you sell your FMU you probably come out at around $200 or less to change over. The recal kit is cheaper (about $50-70 if I remember) but you'll still be running high fuel pressures at 10+ psi without being able to turn down the base fuel pressure (75psi fuel pressure at 10psi with the 3:1 regulator. Assuming you want to run way more than that with 600cc injectors). I'm going the AFC, 440cc and 4:1 recalibration route myself as I dont plan on running much boost but would like to run a small shot of nitrous. If it doesn't work out I guess I'll be getting a SuperFMU too.


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

-OR- for $30 you can call up Vortech and order a re-calibration kit for you existing FMU which will drop it down.
Available kits: 2:1, 4:1, 6:1, 8:1, 10:1, 12:1

Later!

rsXboy99: Where did you get your injectors and how much?? What brand are they??

i believe they are the same as yours...i called the harvs performance center..and had them custom flow venoms for me at 600cc's ... and should i have them send me a 2:1 recalibration kit? will that allow me to run like 20psi ?

600 cc saturated injectors??????/ sounds fishy........

Bring it on............

OK, I'm still a bit confused when it comes to fuel pressure-risers...

Here's my question: Don't people buy BIGGER injectors, in order to NOT require the aftermarket fuel pressure-risers?

I mean *ideally*, I want to run stock fuel pressure with bigger injectors and use the SAFC to tune the mixture... Am I missing a point somewhere?

Personally, in my experience, the less I rely on "mechanical" devices (like a FPR) the better off I am in terms of unexpected failures. I know that electronics CAN fail too, but I thoroughly believe that my engine went ka-boom coz of something mechanical...(not sure what though...)

Guy
RS_Guy



Damn the waiting..... It Sucks! 6.5 months counting...
GTuned.com is Basically Ready!!!

LAST EDITED ON 07-May-01 AT 09:50 PM (PST)

Even the stock turbo cars have a FPR (for that matter, so do we, 'cept it works on a vacuum based system) The point isn't to "avoid the use of a mechanical ", the point is to reduce the duty cycle of the injectors you're running. On the stock 235's, at 120PSI, you're WAAAAY outta line the the 80% duty cycle mark. With 600's, you will likely blow something up before you hit the duty cycle those of us with stock injectors do.

To sort of shed a bit of light on this subject, you have to understand how a fuel injected system works. You have a system with a set injector size ( call it S, because X is overrated) that functions at a specific pressure (call it Y, cuz i said so.) Now, with injectors of S, and pressure of Y, you will push Z amount of fuel (say gasoline, in this example, duh) through those injectors. Now, what can you do to the system to get more fuel when it is needed? Injector sizes are static and cannot change on the fly (visct? variable injector size control timing? the new vtec? LoL..) thus, the most logical way to increase fuel flow is to increase Y.

For every increase in Y with a constant S, Z is increased proportionally to the value of Y.

The answer to your question, simply .. No. it is generally to increase the flow potential of the fuel system, and to reduce the duty cycle of the injectors in the fuel system. Anytime you ever drove your car NA, you were relying on a FPR. The ONLY way to get more fuel into your motor is to increase the pressure behind the injectors, so that more fuel is forced through them every time they open. Our cars don't have a boost sensitive way of increasing pressure, not from the factory. Thus our reliance on boost sensitive fuel pressure risers. The big blue FMU is no different in operation (other than the difference in atmosphereic pressures, boost or vacuum) than the little black nub on your fuel rail that has worked perfectly since the day you bought your car. In my opinion, the IDEAL setup would be a 1:1 fuel pressure riser, with injectors (and pressures to match) that would allow for enough fuel for the amount of air whatever turbo you've got will produce for a specified boost level.

IMOHO, i don't trust the SAFC enough to supply fuel under boost without some mechanical way of increasing fuel pressure that is dependant on boost. The bigger the injector, the less you have to raise the pressure under boost, but the sloppier the whole equation becomes. THAT's what the SAFC is good for, fine tuning the variables introduced into the mechanical system. There (as far as i know) isn't a point in "For every increase in Y with a constant S, Z is increased proportionally to the value of Y" where Z increases without the coresponding increase in Y, and our stock regulator can't do that.

I love making simple answers in to page long dissertations on bullshit.


______________________________________
-Dino Yancey
I'm so bad, i should be in detention.


Get the Mitsubishi Technical Information manual for the 95-99 Eclipse HERE!
http://www.heavenz-not-0verflowing.com/files/dsmmanual.pdf

Umm..that's nice and all, but when are you gettin your ass to Beaumont? Shaun said you wussed out on us this past weekend ;-) I dont believe you. Sure..sure.





"Yes, thats Shaun shooting the finger"

LAST EDITED ON 08-May-01 AT 08:24 AM (PST)

THIS WEEKEND!!

My car was acting up Saturday night... Needed to be worked on!

Was having fuel pressure issues since I upped the boost.

Should i come over on Friday and stay the weekend? i've got places to stay out there... Or woulds just sunday be better?

Ummm... maybe i should go ask my GF.. LOL!!

Well shit me.. she just called.. Said cool... See ya then!!

Finally called the guys at Hocus Pocus, too.. $125/hr for tuning time on the dyno, no extra charge for tuning the SAFC. Not too bad... Feels like rape, though..

______________________________________
-Dino Yancey
I'm so bad, i should be in detention.


Get the Mitsubishi Technical Information manual for the 95-99 Eclipse HERE!
http://www.heavenz-not-0verflowing.com/files/dsmmanual.pdf

I personally dont trust Hocus Pocus. If all goes well (which it will) I'll be seriously boosting before the Mobil 1 World Import Challenge in June, and hopefully I'll get some dyno runs. I'd like to go to Alamo Motorsports/Autosports if I could and hope on their dyno. Dunno though. Also, anytime is a good time to come down. We like to sit around and bullshit, which I'm sure you do too.





"Yes, thats Shaun shooting the finger"

Dude, my DAD lives like 5 minutes away from Alamo Motorsports in the Industriplex in Baton Rouge! if i had known they had a dyno....!!

______________________________________
-Dino Yancey
I'm so bad, i should be in detention.


Get the Mitsubishi Technical Information manual for the 95-99 Eclipse HERE!
http://www.heavenz-not-0verflowing.com/files/dsmmanual.pdf

Damn Darkone, wanna write some help files for my website? (full credit will be given to you of course...)

Umm, Just avoid the Y, S, Z stuff... :-)

"For every increase in Y with a constant S, Z is increased proportionally to the value of Y"

Try, "For every increase in fuel pressure with constant injector size, fuel flow is increased proportionally to the value of the fuel pressure" :-)

But seriously, I actually understand what all the fuss was about. I guess what I was intending to say was that, I want 550/600cc injectors at STOCK fuel pressure (so I STILL need a FMU huh..).

Guy
RS_Guy



Damn the waiting..... It Sucks! 6.5 months counting...
GTuned.com is Basically Ready!!!

So what do you guys think..once i get the 3:1 fmu..what kind of boost sounds safe..it was crazy though, w/ these injectors the egt only reads like 650 C when i boost (though i havnt driven it very much because it stutters? i want like 20psi.u think its safe?

With injectors of that size, i wouldn't go 3:1... i'd get the SFMU with the 1.5 riser and lower my base FP to like 20PSI...

Just my opinion..

______________________________________
-Dino Yancey
I'm so bad, i should be in detention.


Get the Mitsubishi Technical Information manual for the 95-99 Eclipse HERE!
http://www.heavenz-not-0verflowing.com/files/dsmmanual.pdf

Whoa. You guys are getting crazy with these injector sizes and how you are handling them. Am I the only one who thinks these are too big? I still am stuck on the idle and what fuel pressure you would have to run. 20PSI just seems too low. 25PSI is really pushing it IMO too. I think it will seem OK at first, but then cause problems. Such low pressures can effect the spray pattern of the injectors during idle and they may fail to atomize the fuel properly. My understanding is that the injector spray pattern, like at very high psi levels, gets nasty at low psi levels, squirting large gobs of non-atomized fuel into the combustion chambers which doesn't ignite and gets passed out the tailpipe. If you have to bring the pressure that low, then your injectors are too big. The idea behind the Accell is that you swap to a 1:1 regulator and idle at a sane level, like around 45psi on more accurate faster reacting injectors.

MuRiX
97 Eclipse GS HRC Stage II
And a whole lot of other mods...
A.D.P.
http://murix.home.icq.com/index.html