THANK YOU VERY MUCH GREG (992GNT) AND CHRIS (KLIPZRACER). You dont know how much I appriciated your help :thumbsup

Well..... I finally got my hrc stage 2 kit on this weekend. Now I think I might have some problems.

Note: Stock exhaust, stock injectors, and vortech s-fmu with the disk that came on it, and the 'optional' hard spring.

Running about 6-7 psi.
Idle fuel pressure is bewtween 55-60. good
WOT fuel pressure is over 100. my gauge only goes to 100, and the needle goes over it. but i should have about 110-115.
My pyrometer - About 800 at idle. I think its ok, but im not sure. Ill explain later


Well... after we get the kit installed and running, we take it out for a drive, and start tuning it. At this point I have half a tank of regular gas. I got some detonation. So we go to the gas station and fill the rest up with 93. Test it out, still get detonation. Tune it a little bit, still detonation. My fuel pressure seems good, and my temp seems good. It was reading 1200 at wot. Humm...... So I start driving home, and I get down to 3/4 tank of gas. Cool. So I fill the rest up with 94. Start driving again, seeing if that helped, and I think it did. I didnt hear anymore detonation. Sweet. So im about 25min from home and call my buddy and he wants a ride in it. By that time im down to 3/4 tank of gas again. So I fill the rest up with 94. Try it out, I dont hear any detonation. Cool. My temps at wot are still at 1200. That doesnt seem right? We went to some store, went to start my car, and it didnt start. So I tried again, then it started up. Humm.... ? So we go back on the freeway, get on it a decent amount, and I tapped my pyro gauge a little. Jumps to 1400, jumps to 1500, Shit! So I back off, still watching my gauge, and it jumps back to 1400, then jumps back to 1200, then it smoothly goes back. Huh? So I try it again. Get up to 1200 and sticks there. It seems like it get stuck there or something. So Im still on it, and start tapping my gauge. 1200, jumps to 1400, jumps to 1500, then almost gets to 1600 and I back off. Fuck! Then jumps back to 1400, jumps back to 1300, jumps to 1200, then cools down a little more before I put my foot on the gas pedal. WTF?!? But the whole time, I was getting enough fuel, and didnt hear detonation.

So...... Was the regular gas the cause of my detonation? Was it the vortech s-fmu? Whats goin on with my pyrometer? Why do I have to tap it to get it to work correctly? Are my temps good, cuz now they seem high? Fuel is good right? My car didnt start the first try 2 times now. Why is that?

Please help, and give any advice/info you have. Thank you.

you should have been using 93 weeks before the install.:nono
plus you seem to be running rich.... go through another tank or two or 94 and then tune the car... just drive normal right now and try not to boost it till you get all the old gas out and have nothing but high octane gas in there... you could also add octane booster or put a gallon of 112 in it to help....IMO

I have to agree that octane 93 should have been used from the start. Personally I used Sunoco Ultra 94 and have never heard audible detonation from my car. Higher octane may be more expensive but since our cars don't handle detonation well it is worth it.

Do you have an air/fuel guage? I would be curious to see your o2 voltages under boost. If it is lean, it could be a number of things. If you don't have one, I would seriously recommend getting one. It would be able to tell you if you are running high EGTs because of being overly or high EGTs because of running lean. Some items to check to see if you are getting adequate fuel flow:

1. Vacuum leak somewhere. Your vortech SFMU may not be seeing enough pressure to raise fuel pressure to the proper stage II levels. (115+)

2. Inadequate fuel flow. Dirty injectors or dirty fuel filter. Before I began boosting, I ran a bottle of fuel injection cleaner and began running 94 octane fuel two weeks before the install.

I am also curious about the mounting location of the pyrometer. Is it located in the exhaust runner (more accurate) or the downpipe (will be off 200 to 300 degrees). Also, I hope you did not cut the wire that hooks from the probe to the gauge as the lenght of this wire is calibrated for the specific probe/gauge. I would definitely look into checking for a loose or improper connection as this gauge it key to safe engine operation.


What type of spark plugs are you using? I would recommend the NGK BRK7e11 which are one range colder than stock. These should be gapped to .032 to .035 for a stage II. A colder plug helps to remove heat from the combustion chamber quicker so that pre-ignition does not occur (detonation - forcing the piston back down when it is on it's upward stroke).


As for the hard to start problem, many of us turbo guys turn the key to the on position, let the inline pump prime the fuel lines (wait until it stops pumping), and then turn the key to start. This works for me everytime and the car starts right up as if it was stock.


These are the ideas that I could think of. I can not pinpoint the problem you are having from the description so I tried to think of all the possible scenarios that could occur. If these are not the cause, hopefully some other 2gnter's could point you in a better direction.

Hope this helps,
Kurt

Well, detonation is gone b/c of the gas is out. Did you buy a new pyro or used? New probe? Make sure that that you have NO loose wires to meter ect... If you tap on it and it moves around, it's either shot or shorting. Get another one and then try to tune again. For the meantime, just drive normal. The hard start might be too much fuel on start, but that will change once you get everything under control and tuned. You might want to pull your plugs and read them to make sure everything is on the up and up.

if you pull your plugs don't regap them cause that's a no-no... just replace them if the gap is off

it is a new pyro guage me and greg installed and we put new NGK's 1 range colder and we gapped them at 32 thousands. and all the connections on the pyro gauge are good cause i put them on snug. greg also tapped it under the number 4 cylinder. :thumbsup

oh yeah he does have an digital a/f gauge that we didn't install....at least i didn't cause i had to go home to a mad girlfriend. :thumbsup hehehe. but yeah, hook up that a/f gauge offa the purple wire in your a-pillar gauge pod and give us some readings. greg said 3rd gear WOT is what's important 'n' $h!t. oh and no problem for the help. glad to help out a fellow DSMer.

Alright. I went out and hooked up the digital a/f gauge. Got it to normal temps then went out for a drive. In 3rd gear at WOT, the gauge read .893 Good or Bad?

>Alright. I went out and hooked up the digital a/f gauge. Got
>it to normal temps then went out for a drive. In 3rd gear at
>WOT, the gauge read .893 Good or Bad?

I believe that's the verge of leaning out, the bottom end of being rich. I'd stay outta there in my humble opinion. A month before the install, I've used nothing but 93 octane for mine to make sure all that 87-89 crap is gone. Also, you might wanna do a compression test. Our motors don't respond too well even with mild detonation. Good luck!!!!

Beware of the HRC fuel mapper if you're using it.

Check out your MAP sensor voltage with an SAFC or a multimeter. That's about the only way I've EVER had any detonation, even in the leaner periods of tuning I've ever endured.

I agree with the previous post. I don't have any experience with the HRC black box as I have never used it from the start but have seen numerous complaints about it on this board (such as how it just all of a sudden stops working and causing all sorts of problems). I have a missing link which was well worth the $45 dollars.


--Kurt

We put the Missing Link on during the install. I think the detonation issue was resolved with the gas. There is PLENTY of fuel pressure, maybe even too much. At 7 psi we were seeing 115+ psi. The a/f is a little low, but every car/o2 sensor is different. I would double check the egt connections (should be fine) and then call Autometer and get a new gauge. Bad wiring won't make it stick at 1200 degrees, it will either make it read 0 or 1600+ (open or shorted). A good egt reading means WAY more than the a/f reading.

I didnt get to read the last 3-4 posts made, but I tried it again and my a/f readings are at about .893 It might change slightly, but its still .89 then maybe the last number is a little different.

I got my gauge at summit racing. Do you think I could exchange it there, or should I just call autometer?

IMO, i would get a whole new probe and gauge. And at least use the fuel pressure gauge that the HRC kit comes with, and put the gauge under the driver wiper to monitor your WOT fuel pressures. .89 o2 volts is very LEAN, assuming your o2 sensor is working properly, and the gauge is reading properly. You want your o2's to be around .93-.94 in 4th gear WOT full boost. This gives you a slightly rich A/F ratio, but leaves enough room to run 5th gear at WOT without running lean( thats going pretty fast though). Lower gears results in lower loads on the engine, so you will notice that your o2's will be more rich in lower gears. I agree with the above too, pay more attention to your EGT's than your A/F, but both go hand in hand. I like to see around 1550 degrees MAX at WOT full boost. If its higher than that, you need more fuel. If its lower than that, its ok, but is slightly rich, which is good for safety. Sounds like you have an issue with your EGT gauge itself, but i suggest getting a whole new probe and gauge just to be sure.

OK. WOW. Somethings not right. I got out of work, checked my oil, almost gone??? WTF? I hate this thing. I wish I would of just bought something else. AHHH!!!!!!!!! And if you cant tell, yes Im pissed off. I loved my car just a day ago, and now I hate it. You do anything to it, and 40 other things go wrong. Im gonna blow it up. I dont care anymore.

dude check your compression. that little bit of detonation is a little bit too much. you could be getting massive blow by now. that means the pressure that leaks out of your cyl will presureise the head and push oil out the breather. do you have oil coming out your air filter? replace your pcv, its only like $3.

well when we were under the car we noticed it has the infamous headgasket leak and that probably why he's loosing so much oil. dood, get the headgasket changed and have them do the timing belt while they are at it. with a good headgakset you WILL notice an increase in horspower cause you loose compression with a bad one. if you go to a decent mechanic it shouldn't run you over 500 to do both at the same time. or you can find a knowledgable 2gnter and bring him some beer and get it done cheaper. :9 hehehe.

There was '0' blowby when he left my house. The detonation that I heard was not enough to do any damage, as confirmed by having no blowby. My original 420a sucked oil a bunch after I kitted it as well, but had perfect compression and is still running strong in NA form.

>My original 420a sucked oil a bunch after I
>kitted it as well,

what?!?! the GS used to have a body kit, greg? which one the blitz or the buddy club? :D :P

headgaskets + timing belt should not equal more than $80 for all the stuff you need. a headgasket from satan should cost about $50, and i bet a timing belt should run around $30. don't really know for sure though. it's pretty easy if you do it yourself, you'll get it done inside a day for sure. besides, while you're at it you can poke all sorts of neat engine stuff. you'll be able to take off the black POSPITA plastic death timing belt cover thing too. makes the engine look a lot cooler and there's no chance of it rubbing up against the cam gears like mine used to do.

Man i wish i could do a headgasket and timing belt for 80 bucks! :)
Lets be more in depth with the costs for sake of discussion.

You will need more gaskets other than the head gasket when doing the job. Headgasket, VC gakets, water housing gaskets, cam seals, and a few others. The upper end gasket kit at the dealer comes with all the gaskets needed, which runs around 100 bucks. Timing belt, for a good one, OEM replacement, runs around 75 bucks. Dont skimp on a cheap belt. You will also want to change out the timing belt pullies, which includes the idler pulley, and the tensioner pulley. A new waterpump would also be a good idea to do since you are right there. 20 bucks at Napa for that. Plus a good oil change, and misc items, i would suggest having around 250-300 dollars just for parts and misc items if you do this yourself. Do it right while you are at it. Most shops will just replace the timing belt and thats it.

Humm........ While I was checking my oil, I noticed by the oil fill cap, it looked kinda wet. Like maybe the oil was coming out of there? So I replaced the cap. Hopefully that was my problem. But probably not. So you guys think I should replace all my gaskets? Oh God. Ill just take it to the dealer. I dont feel like screwing with it. Well, shit, maybe not. Cuz now the turbo kit is on, and theyll freak out cuz its on, or theyll F it up putting it back together. AHH!!!!!!

Ill prob go up to summit racing tomorrow morning and buy a new egt gauge.

How low was the oil level? Is there any oil in or coming out of the breather tube (the one hooked to the valve cover)? Also, pull your pcv valve off and make sure it rattles when you shake it. If not, replace it. I think the head gasket oil leak is just that - an oil leak. You won't get any more power from fixing it and the compression in any of the cylinders is not being compromised by it. There are tens of thousands of these motors in service with very few having the MLS gasket 'fix' done to them. Keep the oil topped of and you won't have a problem. If you don't trust that method, then get it changed. It is not an $80 job though, unless you do it half-assed. Since you just had the 60k service done, I would wait to do the head gasket until later. That's just my opinion though, weigh it against the opinions of others on the board and make the decision that suits you.

Take the EGT gauge back to Summit, they should replace it for you.

greg, i don't understand. when i had a headgasket leak i noticed a lose in power because when it finally blew i put a 95-96 motor in it and notice a power increase. how do you explain that. if the bolt around the number four cylinder isn't machined deep enough the head's gonna come up around that corner resulting in compression lose in that cylinder, right?

If compression were being lost in that cylinder, you would have low compression numbers, possibly coolant being burned in the combustion chamber or pushed out of the water jacket. I don't know exactly what happened on your car, but I've worked on several 420a's (60k to 125k miles) in the last couple of months - all with the infamous headgasket oil leak - and all have decent compression across all 4 cylinders (within 5-7psi of each other). That's what I know about it.

The oil level was at MIN on the stick. Like right where the line was. But I filled it back up and since I have changed the oil fill cap, Ive put quite a few miles on it, and the oil is still the same as when I filled it back up. So far, so good.

I couldnt get the pcv valve off, but there were no signs of any oil comming from it, or the line from it.

I took my gauge back to summit and got a new one. Did the install in the parking lot haha. Went out on the freeway, and it works!

1st try - slowed down a little, dropped it into 3rd and floored it. My egt's went up to 15 and the fuel dropped to about 100 at the very end of the pull.
2nd try - from a stop. took 3rd gear to the top. my egt's got to 14 and my fuel didnt drop any.
3rd try - same as 1st try, but my fuel didnt drop.

My a/f gauge was in the high .7's. Like .79 Yesterday it was .89's. I dunno whats goin on with that.....?

You think I should give it some more fuel? How would I do that with the vortech s-fmu? I didnt get a chance to watch greg adjust it.

Should I adjust my greddy type s or leave it alone? When I let off the gas, without getting back on it (like to slow down), my bov will go off, pssssssssssh then it makes another sound right after it. Kinda sounds like the same thing but alot quieter, and it kind of sounds like maybe its sucking in air? I dunno. Im not sure how to describe it.

Your EGT's seem a bit rich to me. What kind of A/F gauge are you using? A digital one? Some digital ones need to be calibrated before use. If your EGT's are around 1500 at WOT, then your A/F will most likely be around .95 or close. Its slightly rich, but safe. If you have one, or you can buy one cheap, hook up a digital volt meter to your o2 wire(positive lead to the o2 wire, ground lead to ground), as that will give you a good reading at WOT. I think there is a problem with our A/F gauge..Your wire connection to the ECU's o2 wire is good right? Should be soldered and taped up good.

EGT's seem rich? I was just nervous that I would be too lean, then ka-boom! Thats good then if Im on the rich side. I have a gadgetseller.com digital a/f gauge. Its not hooked up on the ecu though. Dont know where or how. But I have it hooked up underneath, in front of the car. Which now that I think about it, probably isnt really accurate because I think my neon wires interfere with it. Because when I had my old autometer a/f gauge, hooked up to the same spot, there would be like 2-3 led's lighting up at the same time. Then when I turned my neons on (neon wire is ran right by it) there would be like 5-7 led's lit up at the same time. So I think my neon wire is screwing with the gauge. Even if I dont turn them on, beacuse I didnt have them on when I was testing this out. But if im getting enough fuel, and my egt's are reading rich (alot or a little BTW?), but my a/f gauge is reading lean, I think Im going to trust the fuel and egt gauge over the a/f to tell me whats goin on.

So you think Im ok and to leave it alone? No more adjustments and tuned pretty good? Am I too rich, or is it fine? Thank you.

Yeah, i like to trust the EGT gauge more over the A/F gauge, but both go hand in hand(assuming they are working right). Like i said though, get a digital voltmeter tester, and try that out. Grab the o2 sensor wire at the ECU, solder it, then tape it up good. You also want to use the ECU ground wire. I have heard if you use a ground like in the car, it can cause inaccuracies, because of the resistance from the negative ground cable through the body of the car, You will see a ground wire going to the fender right by the ECU. Use this grounding point for you A/F gague then run into the car. Use a ring terminal on the ground wire, and be sure the metal on the car where it bolts to is nice and clean, and bare metal. Then tighten the bolt down good over both the ring terminals.