Hey everyone

I was recently considering purchasing the stage 1 turbo kit from HRC for my RS, but I've talked to some mitsubishi techs and they said i shouldn't. Seems, according to them, that the stock internals won't last long under the added pressure. Also, I live in South Florida and they said that with the already steamy conditions that detonation is a major concern without an intercooler. They said that when turbocharging you need to take into consideration the limits of metalurgy. Basically, they'd do it for me, but don't recommend it cuz my engine wouldn't last long. Is this true? How are all your engines holding up (420a, Stage I owners)? Anybody live in florida or areas with similar weather conditions? I'd like to hear some feedback from everyone here. Thanks!

David

Well, in a nutshell, that is correct. With stock internals, it's not a matter of IF it will blow up... it's a matter of WHEN it will blow up. Some motors last 2 years and some last 2 days. It's HIGHLY recommended to rebuild with forged internals. An intercooler is a must for any turbocharged engine, IMO.

Not true at all. it's all in the TUNING!

Stock internals (rods AND PISTONS) have been proven to take upwards of 350 crank HP! However, tuning to that point is far beyond your weekend mechanic (and 93 octane gas). With a bone stock 420a and an HRC stage 1, if you follow their tuning specs and run ONLY their recommended boost, yes, your motor will last for the life of the car.

it's only a matter of WHEN for the HP junkies like me, who want to push the limits and see just how much they can get for the least amount of money - trust me, you always lose. (but you end up with a really fast car in the end!)

i agree with dino its about tuning. i have been doing 9psi with some other crap done to my car some tuning, and my car has lasted me a while. right now im asking for it at 12psi on a stock motor etc..
hehe
Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2 @12psi :D
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

whoa ^^^! what kind of times are you getting at 12 psi and auto mike?

yeap, 12 psi is askin for it. if tuned right, and running the HRC specs the stock motor should be ok. pretty much exactly what dino said.

When you all say tuning, you just mean leaving the psi alone right? Don't go tweaking it myself. Duh! So, if I just don't do that I should be fine right? Anybody know where I could get forged pistons and rods for the 420a, cheaper than HRC. Also, how about some good FMIC's cheaper than HRC too? Only reason i'm going with stage 1 is money reasons, other wise i'd go straight to stage III, but if I could get the internals and intercooler elsewhere for less, then maybe we might be talking. :thumbsup Thanks again!

David

don't worry, you'll get power hungry and have the engine torn out in a few months anyway.


Jon

1997 Eclipse RS

14.21@101mph 10/4/02

here are my plans for my car cause i'm in the same boat as you.
yeah i know that i can run my turbo right now but my goal is to make it safe for about $2000 (not including the turbo of course).

first get the sfmu from vortech($200 used), then get a digital af guage (60 new$), 30lbs injectors(around $100-200), egt (150 used with probe), missing link (new 60), hrc custom head gastet (70 new-i think), (350 new) pistons, (400 new) rods, then get a used hrc smic for about 300 (hopefully)...

from the guys on this board, stock internals are safe. but imo, dino and all these turbo gurus know their 420A shit but for me who's new to the turbo thing, i want reliability and spending the extra $2000 is worth it imo... plus the strong internals will help safeguard against boost surge. of course, tuning is still key here, but as long as your getting enough fuel and the gauges are say everything is cool, then your good to go.

^^^the above are pretty much things i've learned from this site and this superstreet turbo edition mag...

I do certainly agree that tuning is the key, but you must recognize that the HRC stage 1 kit has very minimal tuning capabilities. Especially with inaccurat components such as the Cartech FPR and FCD.

IMO, that kit alone will NOT last the life of the car. We've seen blown engines running the HRC stage 1 kit time after time on this board.

I would not recommend it for an amature mechanic. At least invest in some pistons.

12psi feels great. still got some tuning to do at 12psi, my timing looks cool, got enough fuel, and i only do 12psi with 100 octane. and 9psi with 91 octane... i can still lean a bit more at 12psi in certain rpms, i did a few highway long pulls last night and the car kicked ass, but i was running pretty rich at 5,000rpm+ .98-1.0v so i can lean a bit.

Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2 @12psi :D
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

heheh, my stock motor ran great at 12lbs...for about 3 monthes ;)#3 finaaly went after 1.5yrs of boost (albeit, 8-10psi for ~6-8monthes, and 10-12 for 3)

was also @ .98-1.0v on the a/f gauge w/ same egts i had always seen


stock motor will last forever at recommended boost levels and proper tuning...but things get a little sketchy when you start upping the boost

(edit: and no, i was not using the hrc fuel setup. ditched the stock injectors and craptech fpr long time ago, and never had a fcd (95) )

agree 100% with dougie.

Basically, if you never, EVER detonate then yes, your 420a will last forever on stock pistons. But the HRC fuel system, with it's pushing-the-limits-just-to-get-the-bare-minimum specs plus the flaky components will almost guarantee you detonation.

I'd be willing to bet that most stock engines that aren't dead after several months of HRC turboing are simply not using the HRC-supplied cartech, FCD, or stock injectors.

i agree with dino,,,,,,,, the hrc stage 1 won't mess up your car if you leave it alone... if you start playing with the boost or lean out the fuel then you will have problems... but if you just leave the kit the way hahn set it up then it should last the life of the car with out rebuild...........imo and with knowlege of everyday boosting

>I'd be willing to bet that most stock engines that aren't dead
>after several months of HRC turboing are simply not using the
>HRC-supplied cartech, FCD, or stock injectors.

Probably a very accurate statement, dawg.

In fact, for reasons associated with leaning out, erratic fuel pressures, and even detonation, I had to change all of the above or add something to the equation that I've ended up passing along to the board in some manner or form.

Many people who have been here for a long time know I was one of the first generation of people to turbocharge. I made my decision back when STAR had just come about, and Wyatt had turbo'ed his car maybe 3-4 months before I did with one of those early STAR kits. I was probably a month or two behind Corbin, and perhaps a year or longer behind Murix and Joe A. So for all that's worth, I've been turbocharged since the summer of 2000. We probably had like 5-10 people on the board TOPS that were turbo'ed.

I've accumulated over 35,000 miles on the stock internals, and had a couple of bouts of detonation and leanness due to different instances of a bad Cartech and failing HRC fuel mappers. But after changing out FPR's, and the last year, switching over to the 8 injector setup, it's been nothing but smooth sailing. (Thank goodness for all of Corbin's tireless quests for seeking better fueling systems, so I could follow his lead.) I probably post to these sorts of threads each time to try and dispel fears of people blowing up their cars for merely adding a turbo kit.

Those of us who've been here for a while, KNOW the classic story of why 420a's blow due to boost. It's almost always the same, and can usually be easily pointed out; OVERBOOSTING due to the owner's attempts for more power without having anything but a FPR, or due to some problem with a wastegate or boost controller.

I concur Dino's thoughts about these engine's ability to hold large amounts of boost. Even the old turbo Mopar's hold 20 psi of boost on their stock internalled rides, but I think are more careful with their tuning and fueling than many of us are/were (even though their internals are more stoudt). I'm of the opinion that someone could probably reliably hold 12-17 psi pretty reliably if the fuel was there, and the timing could be pulled back on the top end.

The problem is, most of tax those little 235's WAY too much.

well not all engines were designed all alike, for some gay reason mine always had lower compression then it just got lower and lower but man it was fun blasting it haha.

I'd say mine lasted a good year and a half b4 it totally went dead, hell I could still drive it, just only 1 cylinder went bad and its still got compression. That was with autocrossing, track drifting, mountain running (yep as fast as you can push it hehe), drag racing, highway racing, haha damn now that I think of it its been through a lot.

but yeah its all in your tuning and your driving. Driving is part of the tuning, you gotta test drive it make sure all your gauges are reading safe readings. Crap my car always ran hella rich but I'm guessing its because the engines compression was weak. Also it depends on how hard you drive it, if you drive it like a mad man all the time something is bound to break sooner or later.

but if you do decide to get the the stage 1 non intercooled I highly suggest you get an intercooler, any intercooler will do get a DSM sidemount, Saab 900, etc... whatever you can get your hands on and put it on. The intercooler makes the car run much more happy hehe.

does ne that's had a star for more than a year noticed you get a lotta boost spikes when you first drive the car? I remember sometimes it spiked to 10 or something one night I even got it up to 20 GASP (boy it felt good though). I always figured that I was never excercising the wastegate enough but its started doing it often and it never did it b4.

Alright, so basically you're saying that I can get the kit just as long as I don't mess with it? I'm still learning about turbos's, this is relatively new to me. I've been reading for about half a year now about em, but some of the "jargon" is a little hard for me to follow. I was wondering, if I could find pistons and rods from a GS-T at a salvage yard, would those work? My goal is to eventually have my internals upgraded, plus an intercooler, preferably FMIC. I mean it'll cost about a grand at least to upgrade my bottom end, unless i can find some good quality used parts. Also, what kind of compression ratio should be used? 9:1, 10:5.1? Like I said before, some of the jargon has me confused. What does running lean mean? I see stats like .98v, what does that stand for? I really feel like an idiot asking all these questions, but in all honesty this is the only place where i can really find my answers. Thanks!

>if I could find pistons and rods from a GS-T at a salvage
>yard, would those work? My goal is to eventually have my

No. Different motor entirely.

>internals upgraded, plus an intercooler, preferably FMIC. I
>mean it'll cost about a grand at least to upgrade my bottom
>end, unless i can find some good quality used parts. Also,

Used internals aren't the best thing to use. Always buy new.

>what kind of compression ratio should be used? 9:1, 10:5.1?

You want lower. Most people run 8.8:1 or 8.6:1.

>Like I said before, some of the jargon has me confused. What
>does running lean mean?

Lean is the opposite of rich. For a given mass of air (o2) you need a specific amount of fuel to be able to burn all of the available fuel, and all of the available oxygen. In a rich mixture, you have more fuel than you need for that given mass of air. In a lean mixture, you don't have enough fuel for the given mass of air. Lean mixtures run hotter. and heat can cause the air/fuel mixture to ignite before the sparkplug fires, or to ignite from a point that is not the plug, and so you end up with an unstable flame front. That's one form of detonation, and it breaks shit.

>I see stats like .98v, what does that
>stand for?

Voltage reading from the stock switching O2 sensor. In open loop, it cycles from high to low as the ECU trims fuel. At WOT, the ECU goes into closed loop, and just gives fuel by its builtin maps. At wot, the voltage stabiizes. The higher the voltage at WOT, the richer you are. it's not the most accurate method to tune fuel, but wideband sensors are expensive.

>I really feel like an idiot asking all these
>questions, but in all honesty this is the only place where i
>can really find my answers. Thanks!

Welcome.

>Those of us who've been here for a while, KNOW the classic
>story of why 420a's blow due to boost. It's almost always the
>same, and can usually be easily pointed out; OVERBOOSTING due
>to the owner's attempts for more power without having anything
>but a FPR, or due to some problem with a wastegate or boost
>controller.

Oh yes. Same old story, just the names that change. :)

>of the opinion that someone could probably reliably hold 12-17
>psi pretty reliably if the fuel was there, and the timing
>could be pulled back on the top end.

Lower.. maybe 12-14lbs. Stock rods will break roughly 16-17psi.

Wasn't there an Eric from way back when that was running 12-14lbs on stock internals for a year with upgraded injectors, and a little ignition timing management via an MSD?

Also, what kind of compression ratio should be used? 9:1, 10:5.1? Like I said before, some of the jargon has me confused. What does running lean mean?

compression ratio should be either stock or lower.. not 10:5.1 because detenation... even though i know of 2 peeps that have run this type of set up... one was stan and the other guy is 1997nitros (i think that's his name he's got the silver eclipse w/ big FMIC and runs 12's........
as what is running lean? it means you don't have enough fuel to air ratio.. if you run too lean you melt pistons and cause detenation inside the engine...
this below is cause by running lean and too much boost

hrmm. Sounds like the stock internals can do the job for me. I would like to get about 12 psi going this spring. But my car is my baby, i dont want to blow it up!! I think doing the pistons and rods myself is a little over my head at this point.

From everyones posts it sounds like i could hit the 12 psi point with my stock internals if i ditch the crappy HRC fuel system. The other day i was reading Corbins writeups about running an 8 injector setup. thats amazing stuff! I would like to get that running. I have the missing link check valve installed. So if i went with the 8 injector setup i think that would make my fuel system happy. Anyone have one of those modified intake manifolds they want to sell? }( Or a stock one? Mabye ill goto the salvage yard and grab one, then take it down to the machine shop and have them do it up for me. Anyone have any idea why corbin used epoxy and didnt have it welded? I think i could have the machine shop do that for me. I have a lot of connections at ford and msx, i think I could get it done for almost nothing. And if anyone else is interested mabye we could get a batch of em done. This 8 injector setup looks great!!!

I really need to get this speed monkey off my back before he blows up my daily driver! :o

I hope to move soon and start working on my 1g talon to scratch my speed itch.

Any recomendations on keeping my 420 happy at 12psi with stock internals? -etx

Well you will have to find a way to pull some timing in addition to the fuel, IE crane or MSD ignition, or greddy e-manage. For the 8 injector setup you have to buy a new regulator for the fuel system. Not only that but you really have to tune this 8 injector setup, it's not plug and play. Now I will say this, if you don't feel you are ready to rebuild, and don't know the basics of a turbo 420a, 12psi on stock internals is probally not for you,.....yet. You need to stick with the basics for now. Go with stage 1 or 2 until you learn everything you need to know, then think about turning it up. It's going to take a lot of tuning to push the envelope like that, and it will have to be DEAD ON. IMO, just from what you have said here, you are not ready for that. Slow down a bit and go in stages, because if you try to go 12 psi on stock internals at your current level of knowldge, your going to blow it up.

Cool! Would the Apex-i SAFC do the trick? It looks like the e-manage needs to be hooked up to a PC. I already have a obd2 datalogger on my pc, and i really dont like always having it in there. Im going to get some 330cc injectors and throw them in. Also i picked up a Vortech super fpr today. Currently I have a hrc stage 2 w/ fmic. I would be really happy with 8 psi of boost but i want to be sure my engine is happy at the same time. What do you think? Thanks for the help and honest advice! -etx

Well from personal experience now, DONT GO PAST 9 PSI if you are not ready for a rebuild. TWICE now i have cracked piston ring lands with good to perfect tuning. The first time was somewhat hard to dertermine what exactly caused it. I still think it may have been detonation, but if it was, it happened at 10+ psi. This was with 93 octane fuel, but may have run a hair lean, which is what i will account for that time. This last time, this past weekend, i was tuning my fuel pressures again when i went to a higher rise rate setting on my fuel pressure regulator. Every thing was perfect- WOT in 4th gear, 10.5 psi boost, egt's were no more than 1500 degrees, plenty of fuel pressure, and o2 voltages were .96. The car did not detonate at all(detonation will crack stock pistons without a doubt). The car was fast. Very fast. After that 10.5 psi pull, came to a stop, and the car idled off, and 2 hg's less in vacum. Pulled the oil dipstick, and puffs of vapor were coming out. Low compression in #3 cylinder reveals the damage- cracked piston ring land. The stock pistons will not tolerate detonation, and high horsepower outputs. Peroid. If you are willing to push the edge, like many of us, and are fully aware that you will need to rebuild in the near future, boost away!

You are suggesting some higher psi's than what i have been reading.. i mean.. some have said do not go past 7 psi if you dont want to blow.. but you are saying you can push it more on stock internals if the fuel is there and not worry. now.. my kit will be here soon, and I've already bought a vortech sfmu and a walbro 255 intank. since I've bought those components, could I reliably run more boost (how much)?

>You are suggesting some higher psi's than what i have been
>reading.. i mean.. some have said do not go past 7 psi if you
>dont want to blow.. but you are saying you can push it more on
>stock internals if the fuel is there and not worry. now.. my
>kit will be here soon, and I've already bought a vortech sfmu
>and a walbro 255 intank. since I've bought those components,
>could I reliably run more boost (how much)?

It seems to me it has been proven from many, many people with turbos on stock engines, that the motor will hold 8 psi without any problems, asssuming good tuning without any detonation. I ran 8-9 psi for a long time without any probs. I beat on that motor too. If you are really worried about the stock motor, then dont push 8 psi to be safe. You must tune it good, and take care of it though.

I understand.. everyone says tune it and you'll be okay and treat it well. What exactly does everyone mean "tune it" Just make sure you arent running too lean or rich? does it every fluctuate and need moderate attention? I've ordered every single goodie that people highly suggested getting for the HRC Stage 2.. now what? what tuning gear is needed to run 8-9psi with ease.

I have read all the post on this thread,and I have a question for all the people that have been runing turbo's for a while on 420a engines? All I want to know is what will I need for a hrc stage one to keep my engine safe? I WILL NOT be going over 5 psi for the time being,cause I live in England and, its not like I can just go to any mechanic and get my car fixed if I have a prob. I eventully will go stage 2,but that won't be for a while from now. I am ordering the kit this Friday and, I want to know what I need to replace to have a sound kit! Thanks in advance

hey! that looks JUST like the piston sitting right next to my monitor!

EDIT: http://129.63.64.48:443/gallery/engine/MOV00337.MPG is a short movie of me holding the most fubar piston in my old engine with my sister saying "that's what nathan did"

To those who have replace pistons, rods and rings: How hard is it to do yourself? How long does it take? Weekend? ... and I've heard different stories on whether the engine needs to be pulled or not, what's the truth?



WTB: 1/30/03 - Rods/Pistons/Rings

I left my block in the car. You need a good 3 days I would say if you have never done it before. Now that I have done it, and know where every little bolt is, and know in exactly what order I need to do things; I think I could do a piston, rings, engine bearings, headgasket jobber in 18 hours, one day straight pounding thru it, with one helper. However, if you melted a piston like that, you would want to take that block out for some machining.
Now that I have done the job as well, I would seriously think about doing the clutch at the same time, it is like an extra hour or so once you have all that extra stuff out of your way.

Now in my original quote of 3 days, I am leaving time for you to run back and forth to the parts house, parts cleaning time, honing your cyl. time, reading for torque spec time, figuring out what it is going to take to get your crank shaft pulley off time/running to get the 5 ton 3 claw puller from the parts store time, adjusting the jack from the extreme up to the extreme down to get the 3 bolts off for your engine mounting plate time, kicking random things in your garage, calling your buddy who is helping you figure out how to pull the timing belt cover off so you can get to the engine mount plate an "idiot, and how can you call yourself my best friend when you arn't solving my problems!" Time to run back to the liquor store to get a couple more 18 packs, 2 sandwich breaks, 4 pizza breaks, little time to sleep, 24 bathroom breaks, and last but not least; a couple hours for right after you start your car you realize it is idling like shit because your timing is one tooth off!!!!

So all in all you need 3 consecutive days :9

^^^^^^ heh, sounds like you have pleasant memories of your engine rebuild.