Ever since after the engine rebuild, the car has been idling like shit.

Ford 315cc ===> car will not even hold idle at all. STFT-25%,
LTFT -25%. Thought the computer is not able to compensate for injectors that are 25% bigger...fine switch to 270cc.

RC 270cc ===> car idle way better, but still get the same CEL code, that bank 1 is too rich, hence misses and stalls at time. STFT is in the rance of 4 to -4% while LTFT is -14% at idle.

Current set up is 3.62" with 270cc at 40psi fuel.

tonight I will get with jamesman to see what the hell is going on here. and post some better data to analyze.

Bad O2? Just a guess, but it sounds like it should have ran with the 315's.

40 psi of fuel on 315's is way to much fuel. I need about 25 psi of fuel at idle on my car for my fuel trims to look good with the 315's..try lowering your fuel pressure a bit..you will have to if you are not using the SAFC to lean it out.. for some odd reason, some can run large injectors with 40 psi of fuel at idle, and some cant..its wierd..my car runs great though at 25 psi idle fuel pressure

Yes you need to lower idle pressure.

maybe its a sensor dude.. even with your 315cc injectors your car should have idled fine with the correct fp etc your car does not love you man hehe. now you got 270cc injectors and its getting there.. well i just called james, but no answer so if he calls me back before i might come see whats going on also..
cool



Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

Ok, four of us couldn't figure this out last night. Can someone help?

Problem: Car starts perfect. o2 pegs at 1v but idles perfect. The SECOND the car goes into closed loop (o2 voltage starts going up and down) the thing starts idling like crap, RPMs drop, and it even stalls after a minute. Smells PIG rich and CEL is "o2 too rich".


Troubleshooting steps taken:
Turned idle fuel pressure down to 25, 23, 21, 20, and 15- No change. Works best between 25 and 30psi @ idle.

Reset the ECU and ran lower idle FP- no change. CEL came back on the second it went into closed loop.

Replaced PCV - no change, BUT if you disconnect it and make a vacuum leak, it runs perfect.

Replaced O2 - idles slightly better but still in limp-home-mode with a CEL.


Stats:
Injectors: RC 270cc
Fuel Regulator: SFMU, 3.62" disk, 30psi idle pressure.
STFT: -4%
LTFT: -14%
RPM @ idle: 600-900
Timing advance @ idle: 15*
Upstream o2: .43-.96 in closed loop

THANKS!

did you guys swap ecus after i left james place?... i would also just for kicks check all the wires for the ecu to make sure none is cut or so.. and the o2 sensor i would re check all the wires to make sure none are cut etc... to bad it was getting late and it was raining last night...all i can think of is check the timing to see if its lined up.. its odd no cel besides to rich...



Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

The ECU on kaisers 98? didn't match up with my 99. We're both auto and they look very close, but there's 4 aligning rails on each plug that wouldn't match up. Other differences were that one ECU had grey terminals and one had black ones. Also his had a small ground plate? with fins that press down between the heatsink fins.

So, no, we couldn't swap ECU's. We did try my o2, and that helped a little.

We will have to get together during the day time and check things out i want to be able to see all the hose routings to the fuel pressure regulator i think maybe something is jacked. One thing also try to disconnect the A/F guage from the ecu and see what happens. I really want to find out what the heck is wrong with your stinking car! we need to get a new ECU maybe we can borrow Karl's and see what happens. One more thing is check the ground to the engine. that may make a difference if it is jacked.
maybe sometime this weekend.
gimme a call.
lates
james

is kaiser car a 97 or 98?.. well kaiser when you meet up with james give me a call. james has my # i forgot to give it to you last night.. the sun is out now hehe .. i hear this weekend its going to rain?... give me a call when you guys meet up...
cool


Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

i would check out your idle air control valve, and your TPS sensors and wiring...the fact that when you make a vacume leak and it ran better, doenst make much sense. I would also check the map sensor and its wiring, that can cause it too, as the map is what controlls most of the fuel mixture in closed loop. You replaced the o2, but did you reset the ECU after doing so?

we put DSM 390 cc/min injectors in the 2.0 turbo talon..

Safc -46% idles just fine.

james changed the map sensor, and changed the o2 sensor same crap.. when we changed the o2 it idled fine for about 10 seconds then it comes back to the mess up idle.. james just did a looky of the wires, it was pretty dark and it was around 1am when we stop.. we should check the iac and tps, but we did not pull it out, but it was connectedd right...
and to this post:
"we put DSM 390 cc/min injectors in the 2.0 turbo talon..
Safc -46% idles just fine."
my bud kaiser does not have a afc and you dont need a afc to run 270cc or 315cc injectors unless his car is so freakin special. i have 315cc injec and i just turned the fp down and it idled fine, but i use my afc to tune it a bit... but with 390cc you might have to use a afc to idled right.
oh man...



Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

Special thanx to James, Dan, and Mike for lending a hand during the hardship. Ya'll the best.

James, I can't this weekend, gotta work...How abotu next friday or next sunday. I'm scheduled off. I will try to get the new 02 sensor in the car, and tune the bitch with 2.72" at 30psi to see if it clear up a bit.

With dan's O2 last night, it ran a bit smoother. We'll see.

Anyways thanx to all that are helping out.

Went down to Ontario Mitsu to pick up my Mopar O2 sensor and was talkign to one of the mechanics.

His theory is that since my car is still in its break in period (70 miles on rebuild block), I may not be pulling enough vaccum, or have what he calls an "internal vaccum leak".

his advice was for me to drive it some more and see what happens when the rings and valves finally seat in.

Any thoughts about this? also the coil pack, might be starting to go...?

car has 57k on stock coil pack, and 70 miles on rebuild head/block.

thanx.

i don't know if that is possible, what idle vacuum are you reading Kaiser? should be like -15 to -17 in hg. but I don't know. next weekend 28th and 29th should be fine. i'll be back from vegas on the 27th. OH i got the videos back they are pretty large so i dunno how we can distribute it. maybe I'll share it on morpheus or KAZAA.
lates
james

that very well could be if the rings aren't seated yet it may not be broke in enough to be nice and strong i know my motor wont boost at all for atleast the first 1000miles when i build it cause i want them to seat nicly,

my vaccum at idle is only 10 inHg.

Funny thing though, while driving home from jame's the other night, at 50 MPH my EGT read 1400-1500 *F. the freeway was smooth. I thin kI am running too rich.

definitely on the 29th James. I'm going to install the new O2, and swap the disk to 2.72" @ 35psi static and drive it around a bit tonight to see if things get better.

I think the motor break in deal and things not seating right could be a valid point.

Where is Dino? I want his input as well...:(

Hey Keiser, If your EGT is high, wouldn't that mean that you're running lean?
I am not positive now that you posted that last statement, but, i was thinking that too much fuel keeps the EGT lower cause fuel cools the air??? However not postive :?:

High EGT can also mean that too much fuel is being ignited in the manifold causing a rise in temp.

James, if you aare out there...IM me. Need to get with you this sunday if possible. Cyndi promises to occupy Kathy...:P

Also, would a SAFC be useful in all of this?

kaiser, this sunday will be cool,
if you wanna buy an afc that would be okay, but i really do not hink we should be installing an afc until we find out the real problem.
lates
james

Cool thanx you much James. this sunday for sure.

I'll try to get ahold of an EGT if possible as well as Mike's 235cc if he will let me borrow them. Might need to put them in for comparison. I use dan's shit but you know...lean at 7.5psi racing M3 equals to ...hehehehehe

I swapped the disk to 2.72" and set idle at 23psi, car seems to liek that spot the most. EGT are some what normal at 1300* at 60mph. It idles better than it has before, but still rough.

VAccum at idle is about 10-12 inHg.

STFL and LTFL are very close to 0, depending on where the Fuel pressure is set at. 23psi was the closest for both side to reach zero. higher pressure, the LTFT rises.

Anyways once agian thank you guys for all of your help durign this season.

well i decided to remove the fooling afc mod since james said his car ran better. well i did.. guess what? i set afc all to 0 on my 315cc injecs. and after awhile my car wanted to die. i took a looky on my ob2 program and ltft was max -25 stft was ok. that was with 44psi static. so right now im just playing with it, got it to 35static and both fuel trims look ok, but its to freakin loud with idle at 25psi for me. so i brought static to 40 and idle to 30 and it runs fine, but my ltft was around -18 stft was ok.. hmmm so i just leaned out my idle so my ltft is around -13 now... well just thought i would let you know kaiser whats up ... well ill save sunday for you, around what time shall we meet at james place? james? ...... well ill look for my 235cc injecs its in my garage somewhere... james you still got your 235cc just in case for kaiser?...
see you then


Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

just food for thought here, but if you are breaking in a new engine, you definitely DONT wanna be as rich as you sound like you are running. this can wash the cylinder walls with so much gas, and make it were the rings dont seat correctly. and to the guy that said he was gonna take it easy the first 1k miles to seat the rings...the rings seat in like the first 30 minutes of driving it, and you shouldnt be very easy on it to seat them, you wanna go from 30-50mph in 3rd gear pretty steadily numerous times and let off the gas, letting the engine slow itself down back to 30mph. way i see it, if something is assembled wrong its gonna break wether you baby it for 2k miles, or 20 miles. go semi-easy for 500 miles, change the oil and filter, then drive normal. switch back to synthetic after 3k miles or so.




www.TeamKLR.com
1997 Silver RS
12.3@118mph,20psi, race gas(drag radials)
Wiseco 10.5 Pistons
Eagle Rods
Started as a manufactured turbo kit, now its a custom one!
Vortech FMU
Greddy Exhaust
440cc Injectors

Waiting on the EVOlution!

I'll be busy building my car this sunday, but let me know if you guys need any spare parts ;) I might also need a hand dropping the motor in if I get that far.

Looks like this is a So Cal 2gnt build your motor weekend. I too, am rebuilding this weekend. Cyl walls look good, so no machining there, only machining i am doing is to the head, porting the exhaust ports, polishing them up a bit, and had it re-surfaced yesturday. I should be back in buisness this weekend hopefully.

that soo many of us is having engine trouble. I think we need to start a support group :P

Dan, we will see if we could figure this shit out in time. I believe the meet is also on the same weekend. But woudl rather get your car up and running first.

Danny, yeah I kinda wish I did the rebuild myself. I atleast could sleep better knowing that everythign was done right. Oh well.

James, drop me an email when you get back from your minivacation getaway. Eclipsekaiser@aol.com or catch me on AIM friday. I'm off.

merry christmas everyone.

kaiser

Just because I am doing the work myself, doesn't make me feel that it is done all right. I still have to trust the machine shop with my crank and head and block boring!! hehe,
Well I will let everyone know how mine goes as well! I havn't taken enough pictures though... Sorry :(

I noticed you said that your egt's were around 1400-1500 degrees at about 50 MPH?? Thats pretty high for cruising at that low of speed IMO. In 5th gear on the highway, at 80 MPH, my egt's are around 1400-1425 degrees. I suppose at 50 MPH, it will be around 1275-1300. Something just doesnt sound right...i highly doubt its your engine not being broken in...esp after how much you have driven it now. You may want to put the stock injectors back in and run stock idle fuel pressures to see what happens. You could have one or two clogged/dirty/malfunctioning injectors..

After spending sunday with Jamesman, Pnoymahal, TheDawg, and Karl...The problem points at the cam timing being off. James found the intake timing to be one tooth off from the exhaust timing causing the intake valve to be retarded, hence no complete combustion leading to the o2 sensor reading rich codes.


what do you all think? will this solve my problem?

thanx.

Well that makes alot of sense... I can definatly see how this can fix the rough idle problem.

yeah that sure will cause your problems. I'm surprised you didnt get a CEL for a skipped tooth???

according to james, it will only set the cel off if the intake or exhaust ( only one not the other ) is not set correctly. which makes sense. on my car my timing was off and i got a cel but for the opp i think. jamesman know which one is off, i forgot already.


Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

i called the mechanic today and explained the recent findings of a non aligned cam sprocket, immediately the response was " thats impossible, I already check the timing....blah blah blah".

I swear some people are too smart they are arrogant and careless.

tomorrow I will bring my car down first thing in the morning to show him. Anyways i have my fingers crossed in hope that this will solve my problem.

If he refuse to fix it, do you think I should sue his ass. bring my car to mitsu, and then have the lawyer send the bill?

thanx.

kaiser

if the shop says the timing is correct tommorow tell them to write it down signed by then if you can. then bring it to mitsu or whatever and if its the timing then go ahead and sue them or bill them for the cost of it.
that is if its the same problem. hehe...
let us know what happens



Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

HAHAH next he'll tell you it "must have skipped a tooth!"

What an ass... lawyers are too good for these guys. I'm thinking lets just turn The TorqueMaster(tm) into a mechanic realignment adjustor.

I'm not violent Dan, I just like to cut things/peoples...:P

After only getting 4 hours of sleep the night before, I drove down this morning to the shop with a prayer hoping that my car will be fixed.

Upon arrival, Ernie (owner) and I had a conversation about cam timing. Once again he indicated that it is was impossible for the timing to be off, once main crank pully was at TDC, and that it was normal for it not to line up ???. After a slight argument, he made me a deal. He will tear down my TB and recheck everything. IF everything is aligned, then he will charge me 230$ for the tear down fee. If it was not aligned, then he will fix it for free.

Going on James 90% chance, and self doubt, I went for it. Man was I nervous, knowing that I could lose 230$ on a hunch.

Anyways after 3.5 hours later, it was concluded that the intake cams were retarded by one tooth. Hence the low 10 inHg of vaccum, and shitty idle.

After the mechanic re-aligned the timing. VAccum is now at 15-16 inHg, idle is smooth as hell, and stop and go traffic is more pleasurable.

I am soo glad that everything turned out all right. Now I wil have my fingers crossed, hoping that my car stays this way.

Moral of the story, RST (Danny) said it best. It pays to know your local 2GNTers. Without the help of local SoCalers ( JAmes, Mike, Dan, Karl, Kathy, and Cyndi), and Team 2GNT, I probably would have sold my car for WRX, or even a (GASP) HONDA.

Once again I would like to extend my deepest thanks to all that has helped me through this whole ordeal.

Sincerely,

go rack those miles on and get back to me.. ill race you on those 4psi of yours.. hehe.. or you can be a crazy man and crank it up to say 12-15psi and ill still race you hehe...grrrr.. hehe...i wanna have a built engine now =(...




Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

Ok, well I'm built now too... just finished... its 3:fucxing:30 in the morning. Bitch wont start... no fuel... arg. losing sleep... lost sanity goddam car *kick*

But yeah, kaiser we can do 0psi drag racing now... stupid breakin period. I wanna melt pistons NOW.

we can be Team DisConXtedWasteGayte...

Glad to hear that! Well today we are gonna drop in Danny's engine, hopefully we can do a better job than that shop's mechanic :P

dan I would make sure your fuel lines are not clogged. Beside you have got some old ass unmoved fuel in there. make sure your spak plugs/wires are secured. i didn't tighten them when I dropped them in. You'd say you would do it.

EZ, danny...good luck with your car. Hope you guys get it up and running without a hitch.

yah, tighthen those spark plugs, and if your fuel lines are hard, might want to also replace them. so do you got spark atleast? make sure you plug in those relays near the battaryyyy..
cool


Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

Yeah, everythings cool wiring wise, I have spark, just nothing squirts into the cylinders. The relays are connected and go click, but I suspect that's where the problem is. Gonna go out and voltmeter em.

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcforum/DCForumID13/7619.html

Danny's down in San Diego right? Oh well, if you guys need any freaky tools or parts, I gots em.

Danny's here in Redlands, right next to san bernardino (where I am). we got pretty far yesterday, should be running by tonight. thanx for offering to lend your tools, but after looking at the tool set at Danny's house (I'm in awe!) I don't think he'll need anything

can I just say that cam gear assembly cover can go to hell? bolts are like 4" long and you only have 1" of space to put them in. I swear, when I have to do my timing belt change I'm just gonna pull out the whole engine, it'd be easier that way.