I think it's time I upgrade the injectors and get the s-AFC. So you know, I still run the supplied billet FRP from HRC, stock internals and running 8psi max. I run the HF inline Walbro pump. I was thinking about the Hahn/Accel 500cc for my set-up. If you guys have suggestions or recommend differently let me know. TIA.

Why? Your fuel should be perfect. That is the setup it was intended to run with. Unless you want to up the boost to 10psi then you don't have to address the fuel. Also without a built bottom end and higher boost you don't need anything close to 550's. From what I understand with your fuel setup and the afc running injects that big your car would pull alot of timing and make you go boom. That is not a "fact" but from all the avail info it sounds like a really likely possibility. I think the Safc has a celing to how big your injects could be. And with that big an inject and only 8psi you would have to lean like 80% or something crazy wich would screw up your timing. Correct me if I'm wrong here guy's.... What it all boils down too is it would be WAY okerkill right now even if it didn't end up destroying the engine.

If your not on stock internals then please disregard this answer and update your sig with mods. Also up the boost if your rebuilt!!

well you really dont NEED the injectors or s-afc but they def help. and yea 500's are kinda to big for only 8 psi. get 440's thats what im running on stock internals. and the s-afc only leans a max of 50% so i dont think would 500's wurk. i allready have to lean mine out 40% just to idle. i can imagine how much 500's would need. so ya if you really want injectors get some 440's for the mean time. i got mine for 200 bux. o and go to www.jdmspecperf.com for the s-afc. 285 shipped. thats where i got mine. good luck :thumbsup




-mitsuman
95 gs 5-spd
hrc stg 2 turbo kit
440cc rc injectors
Apexi S-afc
Blits-ss bov
Greddy PE exhaust
HKS TT
Walbro intank fuel pump
Vortech S-FMU
Corbin's A/F guage
autometer pyrometer EGT
Test Pipe
H&R sport springs
17" Motegi MR7's
CF hood
235/45/17-R yokohamas
sony x-plod head unit
2 10" 800 watt visonik subs
audiobahn chrome amp
custom sub enclosure
window tinting

4sale: blitz front end 200bux

How much timing are you guys advancing with your Safc and the 440's? What is normal and what is overkill?
Im going with the SMC and 440's with 7psi and stock internals.
Thanks guys,
Nick
97RS

im not running any ignition system. you dont need it for 7psi.




-mitsuman
95 gs 5-spd
hrc stg 2 turbo kit
440cc rc injectors
Apexi S-afc
Blits-ss bov
Greddy PE exhaust
HKS TT
Walbro intank fuel pump
Vortech S-FMU
Corbin's A/F guage
autometer pyrometer EGT
Test Pipe
H&R sport springs
17" Motegi MR7's
CF hood
235/45/17-R yokohamas
sony x-plod head unit
2 10" 800 watt visonik subs
audiobahn chrome amp
custom sub enclosure
window tinting

4sale: blitz front end 200bux

Thanx so far. I really need a better fuel system. See I run into fuel cuts at 4k in 4th and after. Can't seem to go past 130mph without getting it. According to recent post you need 110psi of fuel to run safe at 8psi and that is over the limit for the fuel pump, stock injectors, etc. So that's why I want to upgrade. I don't plan on doing a rebuilt for years, if all goes well, so if the 440's are enough to hold fuel for now and up to 10psi then those are the one's I'll go with. Anyone else with opinion, please post. Thanx.

>Thanx so far. I really need a better fuel system. See I run
>into fuel cuts at 4k in 4th and after. Can't seem to go past
>130mph without getting it. According to recent post you need
>110psi of fuel to run safe at 8psi and that is over the
>limit for the fuel pump, stock injectors, etc. So that's why
>I want to upgrade. I don't plan on doing a rebuilt for
>years, if all goes well, so if the 440's are enough to hold
>fuel for now and up to 10psi then those are the one's I'll
>go with. Anyone else with opinion, please post. Thanx.
>
>

You shouldnt be hitting any fuel cuts really. What kind of fuel cut defensor do you have? If you dont have the Missing link, get one now! It just sounds like your map is seeing too much boost, and giving you fuel cut. Also, fuel cut should be like the car hitting a wall, it should buck and stutter really bad. Maybe its not fuel cut you are getting? Check it out.

If you only plan on running 8-10 psi, get the 310cc (30lb) injectors, use the SFMU, and that is all you will need to run up to 10 psi safely. I am currently running this setup and it works great. You dont need any SAFC to run these injectors, you just run lower fuel pressures on the 310's to get proper fuel trims. Once you get above 9 psi, you want to tune the A/F ratio very rich, around .95-.97 and go on up with boost. I ran too lean and detonated with around .93 o2's and cracked a piston at 10 psi. I needed more fuel. Keep in mind, you will want more than 8 or 10 psi in the future also, so go with a setup that can support that, like 440's. I'm almost certain you can run 440's without a SAFC, and run even lower fuel pressures with that to get it running proper or very close stock fuel trims, and at the same time, you have enough fuel for 15 psi. IMO, stock ignition will be fine for up to 15 psi, and no timing retard needed until after 15 psi. Think out what you want to do, then go from there. If your're never going to high boost, then just get the 310cc injectors and the SFMU. Good for 10 psi easily.

>You shouldnt be hitting any fuel cuts really. What kind of
>fuel cut defensor do you have? If you dont have the Missing
>link, get one now! It just sounds like your map is seeing
>too much boost, and giving you fuel cut. Also, fuel cut
>should be like the car hitting a wall, it should buck and
>stutter really bad. Maybe its not fuel cut you are getting?
>Check it out.
>
>If you only plan on running 8-10 psi, get the 310cc (30lb)
>injectors, use the SFMU, and that is all you will need to
>run up to 10 psi safely. I am currently running this setup
>and it works great. You dont need any SAFC to run these
>injectors, you just run lower fuel pressures on the 310's to
>get proper fuel trims. Once you get above 9 psi, you want to
>tune the A/F ratio very rich, around .95-.97 and go on up
>with boost. I ran too lean and detonated with around .93
>o2's and cracked a piston at 10 psi. I needed more fuel.
>Keep in mind, you will want more than 8 or 10 psi in the
>future also, so go with a setup that can support that, like
>440's. I'm almost certain you can run 440's without a SAFC,
>and run even lower fuel pressures with that to get it
>running proper or very close stock fuel trims, and at the
>same time, you have enough fuel for 15 psi. IMO, stock
>ignition will be fine for up to 15 psi, and no timing retard
>needed until after 15 psi. Think out what you want to do,
>then go from there. If your're never going to high boost,
>then just get the 310cc injectors and the SFMU. Good for 10
>psi easily.

Oh it has to be fuel cut. It won't go. Shakes like I have a flat, or like when you are learning to drive 5-speed and let the clutch out fast in 1st. Only thing I can think off. I now run only 65 psi of fuel. Where can I get the 440's? Hahn/Accel only sell 415cc then the 500cc. I think I'd feel safer with the s-AFC. Also I have the supplied small black box FCD, so the missing link should be my next mod. It's good to know I don't need a more powerful ignition now. Also 10psi would only come with the 104 octane. Right now a rebuilt is not in the picture so I have to do with what I can and make sure it's reliable. I can spend a $1000 but not $3000. Thanx again.

I agree with XtremeRS completely. There have been a lot of posts addressing the safc lately and its advantages and drawbacks. It certainly does give you the ability to control larger injectors because it reduces the MAP sensor voltage to decrease the injector duty cycle. This is an effective means of reducing fuel flow, however, by droping the MAP voltage you also increase timing. You DO NOT want this if you have a turbo on your car. After viewing a data log sheet of timing vs. MAP pressure, I have come to realize that the safc just plain isn't very safe under closed loop boosted conditions. The sheet that I saw showed 40 deg of advance at 13 psi of boost. That is absolutely insane and not safe at all. You are just asking to break something with those numbers. The reason that person got 40 deg of advance was because the safc droped the MAP voltage to 2.25 volts when it should have been at almost 4.5 volts. Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would buy the sfmu and a set of high impedance 440 cc/min injectors. Then tune your motor based on fuel pressure alone. This is the only way to add fuel without increasing timing with the exception of Corbin's 8 injector setup or a standalone system (i.e. Haltech).

I think people are led to believe that the safc is safe for our cars under boosted conditions because it works so well with other boosted cars like the 4g63 eclipse guys. The reason why it works so well for them is because they have a mass air sensor. The safc doesn't wind up adding timing to their cars like it does to ours. You can get away with using one obviously, but I would highly advise you to not do it unless you plan using it with smaller injectors (440 or less) and running them on low fuel pressures. This way you wouldn't be leaning much on the safc and hence, you wouldn't be altering the MAP signal very much. Like I said though, if it were me, I would just use 440's with an sfmu, Corbin's 8 injecotr setup (what I use), or just bite the bullet and go for a standalone.

>I agree with XtremeRS completely. There have been a lot of
>posts addressing the safc lately and its advantages and
>drawbacks. It certainly does give you the ability to
>control larger injectors because it reduces the MAP sensor
>voltage to decrease the injector duty cycle. This is an
>effective means of reducing fuel flow, however, by droping
>the MAP voltage you also increase timing. You DO NOT want
>this if you have a turbo on your car. After viewing a data
>log sheet of timing vs. MAP pressure, I have come to realize
>that the safc just plain isn't very safe under closed loop
>boosted conditions. The sheet that I saw showed 40 deg of
>advance at 13 psi of boost. That is absolutely insane and
>not safe at all. You are just asking to break something
>with those numbers. The reason that person got 40 deg of
>advance was because the safc droped the MAP voltage to 2.25
>volts when it should have been at almost 4.5 volts.
>Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would buy the sfmu
>and a set of high impedance 440 cc/min injectors. Then tune
>your motor based on fuel pressure alone. This is the only
>way to add fuel without increasing timing with the exception
>of Corbin's 8 injector setup or a standalone system (i.e.
>Haltech).
>
>I think people are led to believe that the safc is safe for
>our cars under boosted conditions because it works so well
>with other boosted cars like the 4g63 eclipse guys. The
>reason why it works so well for them is because they have a
>mass air sensor. The safc doesn't wind up adding timing to
>their cars like it does to ours. You can get away with
>using one obviously, but I would highly advise you to not do
>it unless you plan using it with smaller injectors (440 or
>less) and running them on low fuel pressures. This way you
>wouldn't be leaning much on the safc and hence, you wouldn't
>be altering the MAP signal very much. Like I said though,
>if it were me, I would just use 440's with an sfmu, Corbin's
>8 injecotr setup (what I use), or just bite the bullet and
>go for a standalone.

Very good info here let me see If i can get this. You recommed not using s-AFC but it's ok on 440's or less. And below 13 psi. Well that's where I am at. 8-10psi max. To be totaly honest here. I have very little support for my set-up, more like none. So I don't see myself being turbo with my car for many years to come. I tried it, and in a few I will have no choice but to move on to bigger and better things. So I really don't think I will ever do the rebuilt if I can survive that long. I don't want to run massive amounts of fuel, but I can't live with the cut. I'm looking for the right injectors that can handle just what I need. I gather that I don't need anything bigger than the 440's. How well would the s-afc work with say 310, 335, or 390's? I appreciate all the help so far. Later.

If you are only planning to run 8-10 max, then I would without a doubt just go with a Vortech sfmu and 310cc injectors. I live an hour away from XtremeRS and we usually get together on the weekends to work/tune the cars etc... We have put a datalogger on his car running slightly over 10 psi using just the 310's and the sfmu and had excellent results. As matt stated above though, definately tune for around .94 volts on the o2 sensor at WOT in 4th gear. I would invest in a datalogger as well just to make sure that your fuel trims and timing are looking good. If you decide to go with this setup, Matt can share with you his exact settings to give you a good starting point to tune from.

the 30lb injectors could possibly be good for up to 14psi if pushed. i use a SAFC, never had any detonating problems or anything like that, guess ive just been lucky. how come you dont hear all the Honda people talking about the SAFC advancing timing on turboed applications?

They probably have a mass air sensor as well.. I'm honestly not familiar with Honda's computer setup, so I can't give you a straight answer for that one.

You say you have the little black box FCD?? Do this. Get a voltmeter, and turn the car on, but not running. Measure the voltage at the FCD to MAP connections. It should be NO higher than 4.7 volts. Should be around 4.5 volts. IF its any lower than that, like at 3.9 volts, then the FCD is bad. Take off the FCD, then remeasure your voltage. It will be around 4.5 volts. My FCD went bad, and was giving me around 4.1 volts. I was getting to lean fuel at 7 psi. I upped the fuel pressure to almost 120 psi!! STILL lean! Got the missing link put in, which will keep the map at its stock voltage of 4.5 volts at WOT, and totally fixed the lean problem. DEF check out your map voltage with that FCD!!!!

Ditch the SAFC. Get the SFMU, and 315cc injectors (30lb). It will give you enough fuel for at least 12-13 psi safely. Thats all you need, less a good fuel pump. A SAFC is a waste of money IMO, and plays around too much with timing...

EDIT: you say you hve the Walboro intank pump? This pump is not good for over 100 psi of fuel safely. If you are running stock injectors, and 8 psi, you WILL go lean. Period. You need an inline high pressure, high flowing fuel pump, like the Accel, IF you stay with the stock injectors.

Alright bottom line:

315cc Injectors, but from who? Hahn/Accel only sells 310 or 335cc.
SFMU instead of s-AFC but from where?
Missing link, get rid of FCD little black box, http://www.group5motorsport.com/cgi-bin/GRPstore.cgi ,I assume.

Thanx for all this help.

I don't have the intank. I have the inline Walbro 255. Also I should buy a new fuel pressure gauge. I can't fit it in cabin so any suggestions as for a good under the hood one is appreciated. Later.

Perhaps I should see what this Honda SMC can do for our cars. I was trying to understand the most I could from that long thread. In this case I would still need the larger injectors right? 310-440cc? But not the Missing Link, nor the SFMU? Please let me know if I'm on track here. TIA.