This product has been brought up several times here, and i finally got around to checking it out. Looks like this is THE answer to detonation. Individual cylinder timing retard sounds very, very nice..At 500 bucks, i think its a real good investment. When i rebuild this winter, I will def be buying one. I already emailed them about what exactly we need to have product wise, for our applications, just waiting to hear back. Here is the website: http://www.jandssafeguard.com/ Check it out, and see what it can do.

On our cars we can not use the individual cylinder application. It looks liek a great product but it does not amplify your spark at all. I think spark amplification is pretty important at high boost levels.

hmmm..really..by reading their website, i got the impression that it will give individual cylinder retard with 2,4, or 8 coil systems. We have 2 coils, so i thought it would work? I guess what is important, is cylinder timing. Who knows this? Cylinder's # 1 and 4 are at the same positon, as is #2 and 3. So lets say cylinder 1 is at TDC of the compression stroke, ready to be fired, is #4 the same? OR is #4 at the TDC of the exuast stroke? I guess i thought both cylinders fired together, but i may be wrong..

If you check the products portion of the site, It does say there is one for the eclipse. But it does not have instructions for it yet. I think it would be sweet. Mix that up with the live airfuel and the retard monitor and your good to go.
Nick

97RS "Factory Freek"
15.9 I/E
Custom turbo in the works!
(all I need now is an adapter flange :)

So does anyone know about how are cylinders are timed? Also, at what psi of boost is it needed to have a spark amplifier??

Greg explained to me about why we cant use the individual cylinder thing. I think it has something to do with our ignition firing two sparks together.

Ok, I called up J&S today, and the guy said that the 1&2 channel Safeguard product, WILL retard all cylinders. He says our cars are much like the subaru setups. We do in fact have 2 coils, that spark 2 cylinders at the same time..BUT, one cylinder is on the compression stroke, while the other is on the exaust stroke, so a spark fires even though its on the exaust stroke. So this unit works by using a knock sensor, and when it detects knock, it immiedaitly pulls timing from the cylinder just fired, which would be dicernable becuase only one cylinder if firing at a time. Cost of that unit is 525.00, and we need a knock sensor and a bolt adapter for an extra 50.00. So for 575.00, we can get a timing computer that will pull timing, ONLY when it sees knock, at EACH cylinder, not just all of them, like the Crane, ect. This unit will also have a boost retard knob, as it has the knock retard knob to dial in the amount of retard when pinging occurs. You can even use a igniton amplifier too with this. I will def be buying this for the RS..

NICE..Thanks for clearing this up. I might go with this too. We will see.

Yeah, i was confused at first on how it all worked with our ignition, but here is an explanation on how this system works, in real life, on our engines.

The 420A has cylinders # 1 and 4, and 2 and 3, in the same postion. eg.. 1 and 4 are at TDC, and 2 and 3 are at BDC. We have 2 ignition coils, and 2 ecu coil trigger wires. This means that cyl # 1 and 4, fire at the same time, and cyl 2 and 3 fire at the same time. BUT, only one cylinder is on the compression stroke at a time, so one cylinder's spark is getting sparked on the exuast stroke, not making power. So lets take this example of how this unit will work. Lets say that cylinder 1 is at TDC, on the compression stroke, ready to be fired. This means that cyl 4 is at the same TDC, but its on the exaust stroke. Lets say that cyl 1 just fired and got some mild detonation. The J&S will hear this, and when it comes time for the very next spark firing of cyl 1, the J&S will retard ONLY THAT cylinder. So some of you may ask, well the next spark off of the coil will be for cyl 4, since that and cyl 1 use the same coil, the same trigger wire. Well yes, you are right, but the J&S KNOWS this, and will SKIP the next trigger signal to the coil, becuase this is the signal to fire cyl 4, not cyl 1. So after cyl 4 fires, it will then retard cyl 1 because the last time it fired, there was detonation. The J&S is smart, it knows that we have only 2 ign coils, so it skips one coil trigger signal after it sees a cylinder detonating. I hope this makes sense on how this unit will work on our cars. From what i have heard, and found out, is that we only need to retard timing at the onset of detonation. And that on a cylinder only basis, makes for much more HP than if only retarding all cylinders with more rpm, or with each pound of boost. This way, we can tune A/F ratios better, and not soooo rich, i know i did, to help prevent detonation, but even still i got detonation with running pretty rich. I would almost guarentee our engines would handle 10 psi of boost on stock engine, using this unit, to make sure it doenst detonate, which is what breaks pistons, forged or cast for that matter.

I will def be buying one for the rebuild, so if no one gets one on and running before i do, i will most def post results with it. This wont be until very late winter or very early spring though..

So say you are using an AFC and running 15psi and get way too much advance everytime you get on it and hit a certain rev range. So the J&S has to pull timing every time the cylinder fires? Isn't that like covering up the problem instead of tuning w/ an ignition to not get so much advance? Am I making any sense or do I have it all wrong?

>So say you are using an AFC and running 15psi and get way
>too much advance everytime you get on it and hit a certain
>rev range. So the J&S has to pull timing every time the
>cylinder fires? Isn't that like covering up the problem
>instead of tuning w/ an ignition to not get so much advance?
> Am I making any sense or do I have it all wrong?


Well the SAFC makes it a whole new ball game really. As we have seen, the SAFC does in fact add some timing, which is not good for preventing detonation. IMO, more power can be made by more accurate, consistant, per- cylinder ignition timing, than using a SAFC to meddle around with fuel. I will prob not ever get SAFC, for this reason. I think the biggest problem when using the SAFC, is timing under part throttle, closed loop, higher boost, say 8+ psi. By this i mean the ecu is still in closed loop, 80% or less throttle. Since the ecu doesnt know we are boosting, it advances timing for max power and fuel economy, but we dont want that under closed loop, as this will def put too much timing in with a SAFC, and will lead to major detonation. If i remember, when i datalogged my car, WOT boosted runs saw around 15 degrees of timing advance, but it didnt go any higher, because the ecu doesnt advance timing in open loop(at least I didnt notice it on the datalogger). But, when part throttle boosting, my advance went upwards of 30 degrees of advance, thats NOT good. The J&S will only retard the detonating cylinder. Remember, not all cylinders will be detonating at the same time, it usually happens on a per cylinder basis. So by retarding all cylinders at the same time, like by using the Crane, you will most liley loose some HP, as retarding timing hurts HP. But, if you only retard on a per cylinder basis, HP will be much higher, for one- its only retarding the detonating cylinder, compared to all cylinders, and 2- max power is made right on the "verge" of detonation, or right before it happens, and the J&S will listen to each cylinder for this point in time in the cumbustion process. So in reality, the J&S will keep all your cylinders firing at max cylinder pressure, which is the pressure right before detonation happens. You cant do that with a general all cylinder timing retard module. So basically, the J&S is keeping your engine at max HP, at max cylinder pressure by controlling spark timing retard, thus making your engine able to create max HP out of each cylinder, witout detonation. I hope this makes sense..This gets complicated very quickly, hehe.. I'd say if you have the SAFC, then using a Crane type of ign retard may be a good way to go, as the J&S will have to almost always be pulling timing. Even better yet, use both :)

This is all dependant on the knocks sensors ability to determine that knock exist and which cylinder(s) is knocking. I personally find the sensor (and it's necessary sensitivity adjusting) to be a probable weak link in the system.



Eric Madden

>This is all dependant on the knocks sensors ability to
>determine that knock exist and which cylinder(s) is
>knocking. I personally find the sensor (and it's necessary
>sensitivity adjusting) to be a probable weak link in the
>system.
>

Yes, very true. But the J&S knows exactly which cylinder is knocking, because it will hear it and know this, becuse right when the knock occurs, it will know which cylinder just fired that caused the knock. The unit listens for detonation many times per second, which is pretty damn fast...The guy i talked to took quite some time to explain all of this to me, and was very knoweldgeable. He also said that if you are using forged pistons, to not get "loose" fitting pistons, as this noise made by them may confuse the sensor..another thing to consider..I have recently done quite a bit of research on detonation and igntion timing, as it hits home, right after I broke 2 piston ring landings myself. Detonation did it, not running 10 psi..
All of us turbo guys really need to educate ourselves about detonation, as with increased cylinder pressure, results in greater chances of detonation. Proper ignition timing is THE key to all of it. Retarding timing is the answer, but how much, and which cylinder is where the J&S comes into play, at the same time, extracting max HP from the engine. Remember, this unit will also retard timing with boost also, they give you an adjustable knob to do it. So you can automatically retard timing with boost, AND retard with the knock sensor. From what i have learned so far, i really believe in this product. And I'm a skeptical person by nature too :)

So in summary, the J&S can do:

Individual cylinder timing retard with knock sensor
Timing retard with boost pressure, adjustable to retard with each psi of boost, using a knob, up to 20 full degrees of retard
This alone can take the place of units such as the Crane, since that can also be uses as a boost retard device.

VERY GOOD detonation info on the site: http://www.jandssafeguard.com/tech.html

Read it :)