Well, after all the bs of trying to put MuRiX's e-manage in his car (wiht the laptop problems taken care of and all) I finally got it in..........and while tryign ot connect it to th elaptop, th eSOB broke :-P. so te car began to run like crap and everything. I thought it was just because of the 50 lb (525cc) injectors the car had. so I was like "crap". so I did what any sensible person would. I becah to take the e-manag ebox out and hook up the map sensor straight to the ecu like factory. datalogged it. th ecar started kinda rough....then slowly the short term fuel rim reached -25% and the car idles like factory again (mind you this is with a 1:1 fpr, 45 psi base and 525 cc injectors). I was like.......umm...ok. and I reved it, and th eecu becan to learn to lean it out -25% across the board. so I took it fo ra drive at 12 psi. ran great. dp egt's never got above 1300 (that is 1425 or so for you manifold egt junkies) and to prove it wasnt' becaus eof knock, th eair fuel gauge only had 2 green lights lit up (assuming around .95 or so o2 voltage) so it was safely rich. so I say, ooooh k. lets see what it does on a long pull. same thing. ok, lets see what it does at higher boost, so I turned it up to 18 or so, and it started to go towards 1400 so I let off, thinking. oh well, that's it's limit.......then I thought.....wait. I am in boost. that means it is makign th efuel table per throttle position which means that it doesnt' know I changed boost levels right away. so I took th ecar out later and drove it some with 15 psion quick spurts. then full pull at 15. 1300 dp temp 2 lights on th eair fuel. perfect rich. then I turned it up to 18. it figured otu th esmall change and still..perfect rich :-P. I even checked th eplugs after a 3rd gear 18 psi pull (not that th ecar has the 3.55 gear ratio, so that is even mor eload than normal). plugs showed a little rich.......just the way it si suppoed to be. only problem is that th ecar sputters aroudn 4 to 4500 rpm between 0 and 4 psi. if I make boost befor or after that, it drives like a champ. I was shocked and amazed. th ecar doesn't hav eth edfi, btm, e-manage or any of that stuff on it now. just th emsd to up the spark, a 1:1 fpr, and 525 cc injectors, and it runs 18 psi without a hitch. I think the car has a boost leak somewhere now, but I will search for that later. I will ptu th ee-manage back in to fine tune it after it gets repaired (it was obviously a dud).


A.D.P.
"...If you do too much, people become dependant. If you do to little, people loose hope. If you do it right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
bring it on............

This is not good new as fare as the e-manage gose. We are all waiting for the results. Why do you think it failed? You tink it was bad from Greddy?

So to be sure I understand you the greddy product broke and you removed it completely. Then you were able to get this performance off of just the stock ecu 525 injectors 1:1 reg and a msd? Were you retarding timing on the msd? So basicly "if" I'm understanding you correctly our stock ecu with MSD will control huge injectors with no other piggy back equipment in it.

interesting.

on the e-manage, what did you end up setting the 3 internal knobs to?
lates
james

WTF? Try some 625,s :-)

What do are you guys using to block the positive manifold pressure? HRC FCD, VC-2 or missing link.

Shit, Armond knows a thing or two about big injectors. His venge is running 750's, thats probably enough to get the car off the ground and flying, lol. I doubt the oem ecu could handle 625's, thats amazing it can handle those 525's.

I took the vc-2 off fo chris's car because th ee-manage is suppoed to have a voltage clamp built in.......I never put it back in. car ran great.

A.D.P.
"...If you do too much, people become dependant. If you do to little, people loose hope. If you do it right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
bring it on............

I tried 3 8 A not sure if that was ok seeing as I didn't really get a chance to tune the car with it.

A.D.P.
"...If you do too much, people become dependant. If you do to little, people loose hope. If you do it right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
bring it on............

I think the hack cable that came with it screwed it up.

A.D.P.
"...If you do too much, people become dependant. If you do to little, people loose hope. If you do it right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
bring it on............

tonight, I was bored, and I had a few extra hours befor eI call it a day, so I figured "hey, why dont' I datalog chris's car while it is running good to see what it is doing" so I drove it around and the fuel trims were at -25% (yes, fuel TRIMS...plural...I will explain that later)I took it down my little "road course" (anybody that has been over to the house knows about that :-P) and the car had crappy timing...about 10 to 14 degrees advanced at wot (I assumed it was from not having an fcd. no biggie). I also noticed that short term fuel trim goes to 0 at wot. I figured it out (this is also why teh car runs and idles fine with 525 cc injectors). there is a short term fuel trim and a long term fuel trim..........they ADD UP. the ecu reads the o2 voltage while it idles and adjust th eshort term fuel trim and then adjust th elong term fuel trim (which stays constant through the entire rpm range). jsut so happens max is -25%. well, while th ecar is driving around or idling, the ecu adds or subtracts to that figure by however much necessary to bring th eo2's into a respectable range (after the o2 sensor has warmed up of course) at idle, the ecu leans it out another 25%.....making it a total of -50% adjustment from the "factory". I watched th ecar do this with my own eyes. you could hear the tone change after a minute or so of it adjusting. and at wide open throttle, it seems to dump the right ammount of fuel for boost (it looks like it is figuring out the fuel needed by throttle position and rpm). so then, I was like......hmm....the timing is crappy, adn th ecar is running safely rich.........let's try the ever coveted AFX ECU (light shines from heaven). so I took it out of my car (which will have to have another cylinder sleaved, and said my prayers :-P. checked the compression and plugs before doing it. plugs looked good, and compression was 175 across the board. after putting it in, car started adn did it't fuel trim magic. then I had to fight with it to stay connected to th elogger (my ecu has ALWAYS been retarded like that). and I finalyl got it to stay connected. timing stayed between 18 and 24 (averaged about 21) still with no type of fcd whatsoever. I thought that was pretty dang cool. and with the new extra 10 degrees of timing came a new 30-40 some seat fo the pants wheel hp :-). I kid you not, the car felt almost as fast as my car at 18 psi......and yes, th ecar ran 18 psi without a hitch. egt's between 1300 and 1400 on the gauge, and air/fuel pretty rich. the car was strong enough to spin "both" front tires from a roll in 1st and second gear just like my avenger (and chris's car has soem HEAVY 17x8 tsw revo's with some pretty good sumitomo tires......it couldn't spin them like that before). I was amazed. it pulled great and ran me into the corners HARD. I stoped FREQUETLY to check the status of the car, and it was still doing perfect. I also wanted to see where this new "rev limiter" was on the car (take in mind that chris's car is now using the afx fuel curves and not a dfi). car it rev limiter at 7800 rpm (a hair away from the advertized 8200 rpm but better than th estock 7300 rpm fuel cut. I don't think chris's ca ris ready for that high of an rpm yet anyway seeing as how it slung BOTH acessory belts off, so the car had no alternator OR power steering after that test. no biggie. I can get belts later. and to top ALL this stuff off. th ecar NEVER got a map sensor code OF ANY kind :-D with th eafx ecu. went down th estreet quite a few times and cycled the ignition quite a few times, and no error codes at all :-D. I didnt' retard timign at all because an average of 21degrees advance is "exactly" where I woudl like the car to be at this stage without extensive tuning. I may get one of those missing links for th ecar, btu that wont' be until it is ready fo rdyno testing. the car has pesky oil leaks (I suspect it is from WAY back when the motor was assembled, improper betplate sealant was used.......that is an assumption), and it has a little blow by, but nothing out of the ordernary fo ra car that has been boosted for this long. th eafx ecu drove around fine, and feld like the 0psi dip at 4 to 4500 rpm wasnt' "quite" as bad as stock, but still there. one of those missing links shoudl clear that right up, but I am not going to worry about that now. I actually had something go right for a change. car still has 175 psi of compression across the board (puts it at about 8.5 or so to 1) and plugs look a little rich. "ABSOLUTELY PERFECT". I think the only reason to have an e-manage on the car now is just to say it has one :-P

A.D.P.
"...If you do too much, people become dependant. If you do to little, people loose hope. If you do it right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
bring it on............

Well,

I do not know what to say. Shit. I am happy. :D

Great Job! :thumbsup
Maybe that AFX ecu will be worth the wait after all. Thats cool.

I'm a little lost here. From what you are saying it soulds like the ecu is adjusting fuel based on the O2 sensor. That is not good. By the time the ecu adjusts off of the O2 it may be too late. It may be working now, but what about when the sensor fails? Or what about when you need more than 50% fuel adjustment? It seams to me that the e-manage running off of a map sensor is the only way to go.

well, the way I figure, when the sensor fails, the will run even richer than it does now (that's what my car did back in the day when it was relatively stock and my o2 sensor died). at WOT it seems like it is dumping enough fuel initially (with 0 stft) to not give me any worries. all I have to say is it works ;). I will still put the e-manage on the car, becasue I like for things to be controlled and adjusted manually, but the car could honestly drive where ever now without it safely.

A.D.P.
"...If you do too much, people become dependant. If you do to little, people loose hope. If you do it right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
bring it on............

No shit!

So the ECU is running the 550's??????
Nothing else??????
I wonder why some peoples car will not even run 440's

nice story! i think they still should raise the redline. i mean a little is good, but a lot is better! :) we should at least be able to compete with the integras or 4g63's with redline at 9k!

Well for one, i think most people who run larger injecors are using the SAFC or other device to control them. From what i know, not many poeple have used large injecors with a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator. That may be why we are all questioning this. While keeping fuel pressure relativly low, the ecu can cutback just engough fuel to run properly. Of course, this is a good guess anyway :) This is very interesting indeed..

So why do you guys think this is working? Because of the 1:1 regulator and low fuel pressure? Since Armond had such low timing then I think if I used 525's in my car w/ nothing else I could run 18-20psi w/ no timing retard or fuel control. I'd be losing power of course from not having a lot of advance but that's better than having too much. Do you guys think it is a rare case and a fluke or should it work w/ my car also until I can afford the e-manage to fine tune it more?

*edit* I guess it did work w/ two different ECU's so it shouldn't be a fluke. I just can't believe no one has tried this before.

I've been telling you people!

1:1 regulator with 440s or higher is the key. I run 440's on my car with 10-15psi without a hitch. I do use the afc though but most of my fuel trim in there is in the +5/-5 range...

_________________
Vinnie Lima
kiku@asog.net
AIM: Kiku888
1997 Chrysler Sebring "Silver XTC"
I4 420a w/ HRC Stage 0 w/ FMIC
14.7@97 mph@6psi
Proud member of the
ASOG BoOsT JuNkIe Crew

I wanted to ask about a point that Ryan brought up to me....How is the off boost drivability? Does the ECU trim it good enough and make it run smooth?

drove fine to me

A.D.P.
"...If you do too much, people become dependant. If you do to little, people loose hope. If you do it right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
bring it on............