Does anyone have pictures on the the Twin Turbo setup on a Audi TT?

Any diagrams or real pics or anything would help...

Thanks

~Tacoman

It only has one KKK K03 (180hp) or K04 (225hp) turbo. I dont have a pic but its the same set up set as any 1.8T Golf/beetle. It may be twin intercoolerd, not sure (euro golf 1.8Ts have two intercoolers).

The turbos are even smaller than the T25/T28 and aren't very robust. The K03 is only good for a little over 200hp @ the wheels (and thats with lots of other mods). The K04 is only good for about 240 wheel hp reliably.

I know the Audi uses the K03 turbo setup (cuz I already have the K03 ;-) )

Just wondering on how their twin turbo setup is..

What about the Boxer type engines? (I don't know much about them, really I know nothing about them, so please include some info on that)..

And what about the Subaru TT setup? Aren't they 4 bangers with Twin Turboes?

Any diagram on a TT setup on a 4 cylinder would help..

Thanks

~Tacoman

oh oh but I love the sound of the turbo spooling on the 1.8t. You just tap the pedal and you can hear that sucka spoolin haha.

Think of the K03 on our car, with the new N1 exhaust I got :-D

Anyways, does anyone have a diagram?

The Audi TT is not Twin Turbo.

I'm probally going to put my foot in my mouth on this one but here it goes anyway: 1st let me say I have never seen a twin turbo setup on a 4 banger and for good reason IMO. Too much work! I don't know if you realize how hard it's going to be to set this up. Think about all the supra TT owners who switch to a single turbo set up not only for more power but also for simplisity.(sp?) From what I understand You have to devise a system to make the turbos switch at a certin point because if your inital Turbo is small then your second is big that first one then becomes a problem. Plus all the fabraction you would have to do: exaust manifold Design, intercooler design, intake piping design, the thing that has to switch them. So you would really have to know how to build $hit or have ALOT of money. I'm intrested to see what you may come up with, but I've talked to many people who wanted to do a TT design for this car everyone that tried failed, those who didn't try realized it's not worth it before they went for it. I'm not saying it can't be done but good luck. Anybody else ever see this done or had any good ideas on how to do it. I'm not trying to flame you or anything I just don't think it's worth the effort on our cars IMO. Now if we had v6's then it would be on but I don't think TT on our 4 banger would be good at all.

BTW this is a link to a supra board some of the cars in the gallery have a tt i'm sure http://www.mkiv.com/main/index.html

Keep in mind, I am not really doing a TWIN-turbo, I am doing a sequential DUAL-turbo.

My idea is having two sequential turboes.. One for low end power, and the other for top end.. What do you mean that there would be a problem?

Also, are you sure the Audi TT is not a Twin Turbo?

Well, what about the Subaru Twin Turbo cars? And what about the Boxter engine cars?

IMO, a twin-turbo setup is almost as simple as a single turbo setup, its just the way you look at it.

And yes, I do know that Supra owners do switch from a twin-turbo to a single turbo, but that's them.

Won't we still have enough exhuast pressure, considering when it comes through 3 lines, some of the pressure might get cancelled out, or comeback as back-pressure?

Would it be safe to push my K03 to maximum boost (at 9~10 psi @ 4-5000 rpm)?

Well that is the thing I was talking about. When you have a sequential turbo set up they don't both run all the time. If your small turbo maxes out at lets say 10psi but your big turbo runs to 25psi then without a mechanism to switch them then the little turbo will be way beyond it's limits while the big turbo is boosting. If you really want to do this I suggest some real hard reasearch into how existing systems work. The TT designation is a model name like is300 it doesn't mean it has a twin turbo.

The TT does indeed have just one turbo.... I know, my best friend has one.... the 225 hp version.
They actually are like 12psi from the factory....

Before he had the TT he had an S4... now that IS a twin turbo.... twin turbo V6.... one nice car...........

And yes the TT does have an intercooler..........

Audi TT= one turbo. the TT has nothing but a generic 1.8T beetle/golf/passat/A4 VW/Audi engine in it. TT is an abbreviation for some famous track or stretch of road in Europe that was popular with racers way back when. has nothing to do with turbo's

Subaru's 4cyl Boxer engines= one turbo

every production 4cyl turbo car ever in existance= one turbo

Only boxster engine with twin turbos are porsche turbo's and they are six cyliners. Porche has no twin turbo 4cyl boxer engines.
I've only seen two twin turbo 4cyl in my life, one the Apexi drag integra and another drag honda. Neither were sequential turbo's and neither faster than there single turbo competition.

Small 4cyl engines are just inpractical for two turbos. There isn't but so much exhaust energy to go around. Sequential is just too complex. Lets say you used a T4 and a T25. The T4 you choose doesn't spool anyway until 4000rpms and the T25's wastegate opens at 5psi. Sounds easy enough, T25 comes on early, wastegate opens, then T4 comes on at 4000rpms...not. Once the T25 wastegate opens bye bye exhaust energy to spool the T4. You could seperate the exhaust output so that each turbo is regulated indepently but then you have basically half the exhaust energy trying to run each turbo. Then you have severe lag even from a small turbo and not enough energy to drive the large turbo. The only way I see this working is having two seperate exhaust manifold chambers for each turbo with the small turbo's wastegate dumped into the large turbo's manifold chamber so its exhaust energy isn't wasted from driving the big turbo. I really dont know what the hell I'm talking about, it seems to make sense but I wrote it just to show however it works, it wont be easy or affordable to do. You want to see a diagram to give you an idea how sequential works I take it. From what I understand factory techs and even respectable performance shops dont really understand all the systems that go into making it function properly.

Tacoman, where did you get the idea that the audi tt was twin turbo? The TT designation in its name stands for TOURIST'S TROPHY. It is the name of a european car show so they named the car after it.

EDIT: stan, I missed where you said what TT meant the 1st time around. I read in car and driver before about what the TT meant.

Tell me if you can do this..


http://tp1125.8m.com/car/Turbo_Idea_3.html

>Tell me if you can do this..
>
>
>http://tp1125.8m.com/car/Turbo_Idea_3.html

What kind of benefits would that give you? Having a t4 spooling a t25?

You got it wrong..

The T4 isn't spooling the T25..

Both of their turbines are connected to each other, so they would be able to use the same exhuast gases at the same pressure...

The exhaust goes to the inlet of the T4 turbine, spins the fins, and comes out..
When it comes out, it goes to the inlet of the T25's turbine, spins the fins, and comes out and then goes back to the regular exhaust.

Tell me if you aren't understanding this.

And.. if those 4 baner drag cars can have twin turboes, then why can't we? I know you might say that they have higher red lines, and that they idle at higher rpm, but if they do it, why can't we :-) ..

And think about it..

If you have two K03's, which start spooling at around 1750, and reach maximum boost (10~ psi each) at around 4500 rpm..

Wouldn't that be better than having a single turbo (@ 20 psi) which STARTS spooling at 4500 ?

Also, could I be wrong, but you won't be going too rich, that is if you have all the math done correctly with a twin turbo, because there would more dependability (reliability) on two turboes than one. That is, if the single turbo fails, than you would be going very very rich, but in a DT (dual turbo) setup, if one turbo fails, you could still be running it, w/o going THAT rich.

1) How often does a turbo just fail?

2) If it does fail there will be no boost pressure to the FPR and it will not raise full pressure so you will not run rich.

3) You have to have the exhaust manifold connected to the turbine for it to spool. In that pic it says that the compressed air from the T4 will go into the inlet of the T-25. That will not spool the T-25. You need to put the pressure onto the turbine inlet. Then you use the air from the T-4 to spool the T-25. That makes no sense. If anything you want the small turbo to help spool the big turbo not like you have it.

4) I don't think anyone on this board has a turbo that STARTS spooling at 4500. That would be a HUGE turbo.

5) Just pick a properly sized turbo and you won't have to worry about it.

I chose a K03 :-) it is small, but it is what I can afford for now. It produces a maximum of 10 psi.

Would it damage the turbo to run maximum boost, because it can get full boost at 4500~ rpm?

~Tacoman

What about this...

http://tp1125.8m.com/car/Turbo_Setup_4.html

I don't think that will work man. One cilender is only going to fire so many times in 1 revolution of the crank, You cant run a turbo regardless of size off of one cilinder IMO. Secondly a T4 is a big turbo and I question how well 3 cilenders would spool that one. Plus after the small turbo does it's thing then the other 3 will still be working to spool a turbo I don't think that's too good for your engine to have those pressure differences. Also how much are you really going to gain from doing this? At most you would get a relativly small amount of boost till 4,000 and then good power after that. I just really don't think it will work. As for the drag cars: they probally spent a real pretty penny to set it up to even work. As Stan was saying they were getting eaten up by single turbo cars. If a twin turbo on a 4 banger was that much better than a single turbo why wouldn't alot of racers use it already. In your plan you say "This is a very simple setup using two (not "twin") turbochargers." If you want simple then go with a single turbo.

Tacoman...

Don't take this the wrong way, but from reading your posts I don't believe you are experienced enough to be building a twin turbo setup... I don't think you would be able to manage a single tubo setup.

Too many people think it's simple to make a GOOD custom turbo setup.... it isn't. There are so many variables that you have to think of and get right...

If you really want to go turbo, see how much money you have to spend on the project, and then see if one of us guys here with cutom turbo setups can help you....

Lee.

"Ask one of US to help you" ... who told you that you know more than everyone else? I'm not trying to come across all mean and wrong, but how do you know, that I don't know more than you? I am not as ignorant as you make me out to. Anyways, like I said in the other posts, please post only if you know what you are talking about, instead of giving "smart" elick comments.

And keep in mind they are ideas, and I know what I am dealing with..
** I knew about the exhuast pressure
** I knew about the damages of having the turboes at full boost
** I know the cost of having this
** I already know what I need

So again, please comment only if you have something GOOD to say

Thanks

Honestly Tacoman this thread is frustrating. Everyone can have ideas, but you are asking a lot of questions in which most people that know about turbos would take as common sense. Also, when people say something that might question your knowledge about turbos you get defensive. People with custom setups already done, tested and proven (to a point) (most likely) have more experience and wisdom on the topic, so concede that THEY (as in people with existing custom setups) know more than YOU.

The things you listed are hardly enough to say you know what you need to know, added is that you say you "know what you need" when you have a thread asking what you would need for the setup.

I'm moving and had my PC off since friday. A few points that you brought up.

1. "K03 spools at 1750rpm". It doesn't. Spool up is dependent on exhaust gas energy. One k03 on a 2L depending on compression and other things "might" begin to spool up at 1750rpm. You put two K03s driven by the same amount of exhaust gas energy and I garauntee you wont be spooling up quickly any longer. Having driven the 180hp 1.8T in the GTI with the K03 its doing nothing worth mentioning at 1750rpm. In fact it feels downright sluggish under 2500rpms. If one K03 is adequate for a 1.8L you can imagine its not a good choice for a 1L which is what you have in effect driving it if you use two on a 2L.

2." if race cars can do it why cant we". Well if you are launching at 6000rpms, have a 10000rpm redline what do you care if the car doesn't spool up until 5000rpm. They could still have gotten the same results or better from one turbo but hey, fancy, exotic shit sells products and show enginuity (useless and impracticle but oh well).


3. the diagram with T25 on one cyl and T4 on 3cyl. One cyl (.5L worth of engine) isn't going to spool a K03 much less a T25. Our engine as is wont turn a T4 until past 4000rpms (based on it takes 3500 for the star T3/T4 to reach 5psi and 4000 to reach 10psi). Think about it, you now have one less cylinder and the other cylinder trying to drive another small turbo. You will be slower than NA if you can even get out of your own way. By the time you start picking up boost you will be at, near or past redline trying to drive that much turbo(s). exhaust energy used to turn the turbine is just that, energy. That is why even though a Star T3/4E begins to spool in the 2300-2400 range it doesn't feel any faster than a normally aspirated 420A at the same rpms. That few psi of boost is offset by the amount of energy and backpressure caused by the turbine. In that case it takes a few more rpms and psi of boost to be beneficial enough to offset the turbines drawbacks. For all practicle purposes two turbo's on a small 4cyl aint gonna happen on a streetable ride. Sequential could happen if you ever figure out how to make it happen.

Worrying about working out plans for a twin setup isnt worth the wasted thought unless you really have nothing better to do. It's hard enough to keep a single turbocharged non-turbo engine running, let alone complicating the mix even further...

1. From what I heard from the Veedub people, and many people who have K03's in there VW's they say that it starts to spool at 1750 rpm, and they have 1.8L right? With a 2.0L wouldn't it spool up faster, as if more exhaust gases where coming? And yes, I do know that the power drops off at around 4-5000 rpm.

2. I said "if race cars can do it why cant we" as a joke, if you finish reading the line, it said that they idle at high rpms and have high redlines (the same thing you said, but I said before :-) )

3. Examine all diagrams thoroughly, and READ the caption, which I find many people don't :-)

Anyways, thanks for all the comments.

whats up with the attitude? you ask for help and receive some good knowledge. sure there are some people questioning your motives and ideas.. only because it is pretty far fetched.. and when in the long run just buying a turbo kit would prob be cheaper... (esp since you want to be around 200-300hp).. boost inst very cheap anyway you look at it. whatever.. take it how you chose to :rolleyes

the real question would be the fuel setup! you would be safer to just strap a granade to your butt and pull the pin!
you are talking big time money w/ engine managment computer dual injector setups, man who knows what else. i would start by bolting that kkk snail up to your stock exhaust mani w/ an "engineered" adaptor and experiment from there. you will see what everyone is trying to tell you soon enough. in theory things might work but in the real world application you are gonna blow up. same your money for pistons/rings/rods get a ceramic ball bearing t3/t4 hybrid and get the fundamentals of fuel tuning down. if you read enough of these posts you will notice that there is one thing in common, all the bigg hitters have blown up duet to fuel/overboost problems. i know that these guys seem to be picking on you but in reality they are gonna save you a lot of cash
go to mr. bells web site and read up on the basics of turbo setups and how to keep them in one piece.
good luck
cburns

I know about the fuel part.. I am looking for 510 cc injectors and a more flowing fuel rail, pump, lines and etc..

But I am reminding everyone, this is a theory, and I just want your opinion about it..

Thanks for everyone posting..

Hope there would be more ideas, and more posts..

Tacoman

I appreciate good theory, but yours is bad. You have an idea but not enough research involved and are not even aware how bad your ideas are off.

First off, yes someone did make a twin turbo setup once. Doug Derby built a twin turbo 4G63 T-25 setup that seemed to do ok for itself. Of course, he said it was not worth the effort to replicate or cost and it was something he did because he had a shop and he could. In fact, I think his car was listed in the latest SCC for the USCC.

From what I gather, you think going with a twin turbo setup will give you large power with minimal spool-up. The problem is you do not appreciate the dynamics of how they are built or the negative effects of going this way. Have you ever considered why so many cars switch to single turbo configurations? Remember, a turbo IS an exhaust restriction. The smaller the worse it is restricting. In all cases, you would only use a single manifold with two outlets on an inline engine. This manifold would have to use alternating ports from the block to flow from the engine correctly. Your diagrams are all absolutely wrong and incorrect. They have a chance in hell of ever working.

The K03 turbo is pure crap. If you have some K series turbos, it would be best to go with just a K04 (which is really not that great either, but usable) and have it custom mounted in a single setup with your stock manifold at best.

Start with some realistic goals.