initially my first plan was a ner 1F, but after thinking about it I've come into some conflict, mostly because of turbo sizing could someone give me the run down on these turbo sizes and their outputs, e trim, B trim, and S trim. Is the T3 a small turbo? Relatively what does it compare to? Stage 1F comes with an S trim bb, will the B trim bbearing option run lower power outputs?and how much lower? well I think I'll save some questions for sean but help me out with these. tia

well the t3/t4 turbo is actually pretty big for our cars.. the spool up is slower than the t25 and the 16g... as far as the trim sizes, i really dont think the power gains are where your money is going to... its going towards a quicker spool up.. maybe someone in here with more experience on these turbos can help you out more... but you are definitely paying more for the bb for quicker spool up.

Turbo size comparisons or discussion will be absolutely useless without some real specs on the turbo sizes in question. I mean trim, inducer/exducer diameter, etc.

From what I here the s-trim BB turbo will spool up around 3,000-3,200rpms the next trim bb turbo spools about 3200-3400, the regular s-trim spools about 34-3700. I went with the regular s trim cause i didnt want to pay another $500 for 500rpms quicker spool up(not a big thing to me). Yeah the t3/4 is bigger than the t25 and 16g so that is why the higher spool up time.

From what you hear? Does this mean someone is running all the turbos in question? What compression? What PSI? What mods? Too many things to factor in here. Oh, and be aware that BB does not effect when a turbo begins to spool, but how quickly it is spooled once it begins. Housing size is one of the main factors of initial turbo spool. BB also effects lag time between shifts which is pretty important when racing and trying to keep in the power.

Sorry bout that, I just read that on another thread. Shaun did tell me tho that the s-trim = 60mm, e-trim = 45mm, and b-trim = 35mm. Not sure if he has put these on any volunteers rides yet tho.

One thing you guys need to realize is that spool up is not a huge factor. I mean you might have a spooning monster from hell and then you will have no way of getting power to the ground. When someone on this board comes up to me and says I just bought my 26 inch slicks what do i do? Then i will wrry about guick spool up. Other than that all the super spoolup = to is a real helluva mess burnout, through all the gears. I dont think any of you guys need a super quick spooling turbo unless one of you has a drag only car. As far as a quick spooling turbo for street app I dont think you need one. And a bb turbo? If you can find one at the right price do it. And everyone here knows about turbo upgrades. All you need to do is get the comp wheel bigger and there you have it hella boost and a wallet to still look into. late mike

that is exactly what I was beginning to think about, the bbearing option is going to spin my tires all through 1st and 2nd, and with the s trim being the biggest housing, do I really need that? Maybe the b trim is something I should be looking into or even the T3 setup,
nobody has said anything about the T3, what does that compare to, the T25 or 16g or is it even bigger? I would like to have a huge turbo with the ball bearing but if I can still get good gains without it then why bother

I got the BB option for my T3/T4 and I don't notice any difference than a normal turbo. It spools hard at 4k and that's that. It could be that my engine is jacked up beacuse when I first installed the turbo it spooled much quicker but I don't think that extra 500 is worth it.

Spoolup may not matter, but I would hate to have a turbo that does not build power until well after 4krpm and we redline at 7200. :-/

Also, why does everyone keep dropping lag between shifts? It is the real reason for BB as far as I care.

i was wondering about something. i was talking to alain on here a while back about turbo stuff and i told him about the 14b off of a 1g eclipse that i have waiting to go into my eclipse. id say that for about the first 10k miles or so i am going to be rockin a stock engine until i have the money to build up. whenever anyone on here talks about their stage one and stage 2 set ups on their stock engines you guys usually reccommend to not really go over 7psi of boost. alain told me that my internal waste gate on the 14b is set at like 10 psi. i am also going to be using a 1g intercooler which well take away abuot 1psi or so im guessing. oh and #30 injectors, sfmu as soon as i find one cheap on ebay, the mustang hi out put fuel pump to (255 or whatever...) blah blah blah. i dont know if any of those details are important, just thought id point out that im not being a complete cheap ass about it like "hey guys how can i bolt this turbo on my car this weekend with the 1g manifold? will i be safe" hahahha. thanks for your help.

Yes, all the stuff you mentioned does matter.
Yes, you did ask the right question ;)
Yes, you will be perfectly fine at 10psi with a 14B and your setup.

Have fun.

from what i remember shaun saying(and don't quote me) the ball bearing s trim should start spooling hard at around 3200rpms, Im gonna call him and find out for sure though cuz I don't know how likely my memory is, anyway nobody has answered my question on the T3 setup.

and murix, you're saying the ball bearing option not mostly for quick spool up but for lag during shifts, how much of a lag our we talking about without the ball bearing option? I just remember getting advice from wyatt saying that I should not worry about the e-trim unless I was going to plan on making big horsepower later on, and also don't worry about the ball bearing option unless I was going to be at the track every weekend looking took knock off every little 1/10 off my time that I could

yeah i don't see the benefits of a BB turbo as well. An extra 500$ that you can keep in you pocket.

Not to mention the non rebuildable nature of Ball bearings.

I was wondering about the t3 turbo as well. Is it bigger, small, more lag then the 16g? When does the 16g spool up?

so no one knows anything about the T3?

T3 - small turbo - will support no more than about what, 300-350hp? Probably perfect if you intend on keeping a basic daily driven car with out intending to really jump into the engine some day down the line. Good for things like autocross and fast transitioning.

BB - I think I need to explain a lot better to you guys why I think BB IS a good option. I will write up my thoughts on it later. It seems you already have it in your head that it is a waste. I am not sure if any of you have actually been in a car with a BB turbo or have seen one in action. I have. I know I want one. :) It is amazing how long a BB turbo (I mean a real one, not some bullshit makeshift I want to be a BB but I am really not turbo) can spin after you let off of it. It is called technology progression. I am not so sure why someone would not want technology progression. I can understand you say you can not afford the option. That is fine. But to say you would not touch it, well, ok. Whatever.

Oh, and my main point on BB turbos involves responsiveness of the turbo and not just intialial spoolup you guys are still fixated on. When you shift, you are closing the throttle plate. Exhaust gases slow down, stop spinning the turbo, intake air goes back to the turbo and usually as much as possible out of the bov, but all this combines to try and stop that turbo from spinning. A BB turbo has extremely low friction and spins ridiculously easy compared to a standard center cartridge. When you shift it tends to stay at rpms a lot better than a normal turbo and puts you right back into boost a lot faster. Of note is that this is not as much of an issue on an auto where you do not have to lift to shift. It is hard to explain unless you ride in a turbo car and you will feel the lag between shifts. It varies from turbo to turbo, but the bigger it is the more lag.

now the T3 is small, but small compared to the 16g or about the same size as a T25?

I understand what you mean between shifts, but also does the ball bearing option create alot of low end torque which will in turn spin my tires until I reach 4th, somebody already said that was intentionally my beginning thought, they even said the ball bearing was better with slicks,

anyways, the ball bearing option only comes with the two biggest housings being the s trim and the e trim, now these turbos will have lag because they are huge, but something like the b trim, doesn't having the smaller housing compensate even a little for lag you would be concerned with having a bigger housing.

before I keep saying anything I do want to get something straight, the bigger the housing, the more air it takes for the turbine to get going right, correct if im wrong, thanks murix for taking the time.

ps. i dont think I've ever told you but, nice color car

here is something really cool that i have found. It doesnt mention the T3 in here but i imagine that it is the same size as a 16G.

Turbo
Spool-Up comparison
Horsepower (wheels)
Efficient Boost Level
Appearance

T25
Stock 2G
220
10-15 psi
Stock!

14B
Stock 1G
255
12-17 psi
Stock!

T28
Like stock 2G
260?
14-18 psi
Totally stock

Big 16G
A little slower than stock
320
14-18 psi
Fits under heat shield

“16G Killer”
Faster than stock
280
14-18 psi
Not stock

20G
Slower than stock
400
18-24 psi
Big

Rocket Alpha
Slower than stock
400
16-22 psi
Big

Rocket Delta
Still slower
440
18-24 psi
Big

Rocket Sigma
Significant turbo lag
500
20-28 psi
Really big

What is Ball Bearing?

Here is what it says from the mouth of turbonetics.
TURBONETICS CERAMIC BALL-BEARING turbochargers are winning races and setting new records all over the world. Rapid “spool up”, excellent transient response and unequalled durability combine to make the CERAMIC BALL-BEARING turbo the ULTIMATE TURBOCHARGER for successful race-cars and boats on tracks everywhere.

The NASA inspired angular contact; CERAMIC BALL-BEARING design (Patent pending) practically eliminates thrust bearing and operational surge failures. The CERAMIC BALL-BEARING system can safely handle 50 TIMES more thrust loading than conventional turbochargers, making it ideal for severe transients and extreme pressure ratio applications.

All TURBONETICS CERAMIC BALL-BEARING turbochargers are manufactured to the strictest aerospace standards by the most experienced technicians in the trade. Quality control is maintained throughout the precision assembly process to assure adherence to the closest tolerances in the industry. All CERAMIC BALL-BEARING turbochargers are VSR balanced at rated speeds to less than .05 G - the toughest specification in the performance turbocharger industry.

TURBONETICS BALL- BEARING turbochargers are matched and manufactured for your specific application. The “hardest pulling, quickest spooling”, most durable turbocharger available to the performance aftermarket.

Now for a break down on trims.

B Trim turbo:
COMPRESSOR WHEEL= 35mm compressor wheel size, INDUCER DIAMETER 1.396, MAJOR DIAMETER 2.367
COMPRESSOR HOUSING= INLET SIZE DIAMETER 2.35

E Trim turbo:
COMPRESSOR WHEEL= 45mm compressor wheel size, INDUCER DIAMETER 1.595, MAJOR DIAMETER 2.367
COMPRESSOR HOUSING= INLET SIZE DIAMETER 2.350"

S Trim turbo:
COMPRESSOR WHEEL= 60mm compressor wheel size, INDUCER DIAMETER 1.900, MAJOR DIAMETER 2.367
COMPRESSOR HOUSING= INLET SIZE DIAMETER 3.000"

Spool vs. HP topics end up like most turbo kit vs. turbo kit discussions. You can guess HP numbers all day the only thing you can do to get real numbers is test every trim on the same engine/setup. I hate to say it but it is true Mitsubishi Turbos spool faster then standard garret Turbos. BUT what are the hp and spool yields? When people call and ask me about this I can only you examples based on math and generalizing. E.g. take the trim wheel sizes 35,45,60 lets say that a 35 compressor wheel is being pushed by your motors exhaust gasses at 4000RPMS flat. So this is 35mm worth of CFM being pulled into the intake of the turbo. Ok now take the same work up on a 45 compressor wheel the wheel will spin just as fast as it did with the 35 on the compressor but it will have the rotational mass of 10 more mm there for reaching desired are flow faster and reaching desired boost faster at the same RPM. Now let’s take a 60 compressor wheel do the same work up that’s 25mm more rotational mass as the 35mm at the same RPM. This is where the spooling is improved to match RPM. Here is where the HP comes into play. On a turbo that has larger housing like the t3/t4 (the t4 side) the larger amount of airflow produces more HP=boost ratio so you can have the same if not real close to spool up time as the super 16G and produce more HP at a pre deterred RPM. Now the big bad Ball bearing upgrade that there is so much talk about. I do not know where to begin on how to example this for spool other then if anybody on here has ever skated then they know the true value of good ball bearings. It’s not the same but it’s still a good idea on how it works. Non Ball bearing Turbos that work on a standard center cartridge rotate good but it can be improved that’s where the ball bearing comes in. The whole shaft design is different from the non ball bearings because there is more friction in the center so it is ceramic coated to reduce heat discharge and helps keep the bearing cooler. I do not know where the stories of Ball bearing Turbos failing came into play but I do know that the ball bearing turbo shafts run cooler then the center cartridge shafts because the the ceramic coating. So your chances of a shaft failing is better in a non ball bearing then in a ball bearing. The only thing I can think of is if someone blows $500+ on a ball bearing upgrade and does not think twice about something as simple as a turbo timer then you can kiss that ball bearing turbo good buy. Over the past few years of me dealing with parts I have saw that more problems from a persons car are caused by the person not giving there car proper maintained, yes most parts are produced in large number but most parts cost under 300 so there more affordable and that makes the demand higher. Every garret turbo is put together by hand making the error margin less and when there is an error that why I offer the life time warranty as long as you own the kit. To this day I will say that if you want the spool of a Mitsu turbo and the HP number and capacity of a garret then get the S trim with ball bearing if not then stick to a lower trim of a mitsuturbo. How many times have you seen a guy running a mitsu turbo upgrade it? A lot more then I but you do for a guy who bought a garret turbo right of the bat

NE ways this is just my .02

thanks shaun, helped out alot

This is a good discussion. Thanks for the input Shaun. A few of my thoughts.

1)Lots of Mitsu turbos so when you continually compare to a 'mitsu' turbo, there is an entire family range of them. Not sure what you are comparing against. There are almost as many mitsu configurations as there are Garrett. A standard 20G can make 450hp. How much is anyone else here making? I still believe you can have too much turbo.

2)I agree with all the BB info and am a supporter of it, but I wanted to make note when you mention strength. They are in fact stronger, but I have not yet heard of someone breaking their standard T03/T04 in here (mainly because I have not really heard of anyone really using it like it should be either - a 40 trim with less than 15psi is not being used at all) so I would not be concerned with the extra strength as a selling point.

3)Turbo timers are a gimmick.

4)An easier way to sum up BB - it allows you to run a larger turbo with similar charecteristics of a smaller one. I was informed of the sizing of the star turbo last night. After hearing the specs, no one is even pushing the smaller turbo right now. That is why no one is feeling any benefits from BB. Based on that, I am now thinking get the smaller T03/T04 option if you are going to do it and save your money for elsewhere. You are not going to use a turbo that big anyway unless you are drag racing.

Oh, and thanks for the compliments on the colour. :) I like it myself.

ok I think I lost you a little, you don't think I will feel much of a difference sitting behind the wheel with 60mm trim bbearing compared to having a smaller 35mm trim? not unless I'm pushing over 15psi.

<< murix>>with the s trim ball bearing, do you think there will be a significant amount of lag or does the ball bearing eliminate that? I ask because you said the ball bearing has less to do with initial spool up then it does with when it already is spooled between shifts.

I do plan to run at most to a stage 3 later on, so I might not see the effects of the ball bearing until I up the boost, shaun disagrees. I have to get to get started somewhere. I want to be able to push at least 12-15psi, but on the other hand it will be more of an accomplishment for me and not much of a drag car. I do plan on taking it to the track but not every weekend. after talking to shaun yesterday, so far I'm still leaning towards the 1F(s trim ball bearing) we'll see what happens, thanks for the info

BB does help spool up, but I am trying to focus the emphasis elsewhere as well.

I think it would help if we could get Dino and Greg to comment here and compare. Dino is running 15psi on a non-BB and Greg is running 15psi on a BB setup. I know if you do a search through the forums there was some info similar to that some time ago.

Considering I am on a S16G and that is my direct experience, I was hoping those guys could give their real world experience.

I had a 14b on my sebring.. it would provide 10psi at about 2000rpm.. ;-) it really died off at about 5500rpm.. which sucks for highway racing..

Great for stoplight racin though.. get a car length on most people even before they start to spool ;-)

ttyl

WheatKing

Im guessing the 14B is a small turbo not much different from the T25 if your losing that much top end, but then again whats the redline for a sebring? I like to hear from Dino and Greg to see whats their point of view too.

wow, I just looked back onto twiste's post and that 14b must be bigger than the T25. Learned something new today, still dont know why you would lose on a freeway, sebrings are auto?

I have a T3 and it is bigger than the s16G. It also spools slower. I hit 10 psi between 3K and 3.5K depending on gear, etc... And Wheatking's Sebring has a 420a and it's a 5 speed. The V6 are all auto though. Which is what most Sebrings have.

so the T3 is bigger than the S16g and spools slower? if it spools at 3000+ rpms it should have some nice top end better than the s16g right?