Well, if you didn't know, I've had some studdering problems with my car since the turbo. I have always thought that it was not because of the turbo kit, but rather something wrong with my car before the turbo was ever on. Well, today I found out I was right!
Welll, today I swapped out my Mutiny Bored TB with a stick TB. I even used my IAC motor and TPA sensor from MY Bored TB and put them on the stock TB. The cars runs great now! No studdered whatsoever! I have no idea whya bored TB would do this!!!
The reason I never figured out it had something to do with my TB was because I had just gotten the TB right before I purchased my turbo kit. I still am stumped to know why its suddenly working fine now???
I think my EGR valve has crapped out though. I had about 2mm worth of soot un the backside of the TB butterfly. I think my TPS sensor might aslo be screwed up, not sure. I'm going to test them as soon as I can get my hands on an ohmmeter.

Oh, I figured out how I blew my motor up fellas :)
TO MUCH BOOST!
Be very very careful when adjusting the screw on the deltagate wastegate, don't turn it in too far. I did that this last summer and it smoked my motor, basically by boosting to infinity. I guess there is some point where you can't adjust any more and the spring doesn't open at all and just keeps spooling up!
i found that out tonight whike trying to boost a little higher by screwing in the adjsutment screw. luckily, I kept my eye onmy boost gauge and saw it spike to about 1.5bars (21psi) I immediatly let off and unscred the adjustment screw on the wastegate.
Be careful, keep an eye on it.
This past summer I tightened the screw all the way down right before a street race, just thinking it would max out around 7-7.5psi, well, I'm guessing it didn't, and kept spooling until it blew 2 of my pistons.
I always wondered how I was beating a low 13 sec MR2 :) I bet I was boosting 20psi + that night !
hehe..
Anyways, be careful, keep your eyes on the gauges!




Wyatt Leras
http://www.turbogs.dsmpower.com
98 Eclipse GS Star Stage 5,000 Turbo kit

Ya'know, 90% of the time, it's only one of two things....too much boost or too little fuel!

I'm glad you know why it happened. I wonder how much you were boosting that night? 20-25 psi! >:-) Wow! That woulda been something to see how fast you were going. You know you musta been lean as hell and boosting that much....wow.

Glad you got your stuff remedied!

Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

yeah, I'm betting I was bosoting htat much easy, maybe even more.
I didn't even get a chance to see my boost gauge (when your racing you tend to not look at things, specially when its on a small country road).
All this time I never figured out why I was spanking that 13sec MR2 so bad until now :)
Oh well, at least I know know!
Wyatt Leras
http://www.turbogs.dsmpower.com
98 Eclipse GS Star Stage 5,000 Turbo kit

The main thing is fuel...lol
remeber since the t3 t4 is a bigger turbo and creates more air...
thust the need for more fuel...i gotta keep telling you guys ..more air=more fuel =)

p.s sound good jason?

That they know. Now if they could just keep from feeding their once stock pistons ungodly boost accidently/just to see what will happen everything would be okay.


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
Stan2gnt@yahoo.com
95 Talon ES-I-NOS
http://members.nbci.com/FlyEsi/home.htm
You too can have a never updated site complete with old info and dated pics!

it was a joke ..jason should know =)

Good man Locke...

Heh...Locke said that cause he knows I'm always giving everyone crap about having enough fuel!

It doesn't matter to me as long as you guys know what's up! ;-)


Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

Honestly, i don't see how the t3 t4 puts out any more air. 10 lbs. of boost in the manifold is 10 lbs. of boost. Temperature wise is where the two turbo's would make a difference...but intercoolers generally correct for that issue. the other differences obviously would be how fast it can put 10 lbs. of pressure in the manifold. 16g would do it alot faster, cus it spools faster, but it wouldn't be able to keep the higher amounts of boost in the manifold at high rpms, since it doesn't flow as much air. the way i see it, there is lbs. of force behind the intake valves waiting to get in there right before they open. 10 lbs. is 10 lbs.

jason
95 gs turbo

I have to strongly disagree with you Griz...

...are you saying that if Eclipse one has a T-25 and eclipse #2 has a 20g and theyre both boosting 10psi at the same time, that they're going to have equal power and have equal needs for fuel?

Nope, that's why everyone upgrades the fuel stuff when they upgrade the turbo. That's why the first gens have close to the same power as the second gens with LESS stock boost. (10psi (1g) vs. 14.5 psi(2g)) Each turbo pumps out different rates of CFM's. 5 psi in one turbo is much different that 5 psi in antoher.

Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

Interesting subject there. does 10psi=10psi regardless of turbo. I guess the question should be can different turbos force different cfms of air into an engine at a set pressure. Will t2small flow 300cfm at 10lbs and 16G flow 350cfm at 10lbs of boost? Damn if I know for sure but I'm guessing a bigger compressor wheel (I know there is a compressor side and another side but don't get me started lying trying to be technical)will suck in more volume at a given pressure just by the wheel grabbing more air each go round. Damn if I know what effect the housing size has. And which flows more T3/4 or 16G? Hell there's how many 16G's: big 16G, super 16G, regular 16G and probably who know how many more. The T3/4 is a hybrid to begin with and can be configured to damn near any flow. Not to mention options like clipped wheels ect.

Thou art not temp thee into boost!

Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
Stan2gnt@yahoo.com
95 Talon ES-I-NOS
http://members.nbci.com/FlyEsi/home.htm
You too can have a never updated site complete with old info and dated pics!

ok..here is what i am saying...not all turbos are created equal...everyone has different characteristics....for example...t3/t4...top end out the ass...cus it has a higher CFM, 16g...spools faster, excellent street turbo, but high boost levels say...25 lbs, it will die off in the upper RPMS. T25: pile of shit! just witnessed my friends blown t25 on his GST...not a pretty site.

Another difference in turbo's is the temperature of the air that they put out, higher the CFM, generally, the lower the temperature of air at that boost level...for instance, a t25 at 10 PSI will be way hotter than a 16g at 10 PSI..that is how a 16g makes more power.

And yet another difference is spooling characteristics...but i think we all know basically about those..

This is what i mean though... 10 PSI in your intake manifold at a given RPM and at the same air temperature, will make the same amount of power...regardless of what turbo it is... where different turbo's make different HP levels, is if the boost falls off, or if at a higher RPM, the air gets heated more by the turbo, and not cooled off enough by the intercooler...that is how different turbos can make different HP levels at the same PSI. so...i guess i am contradicting what i am saying earlier...but the way i see it, if you have an intercooler that can cool your intake charge to low temps...and a turbo that can hold the same amount of boost to redline...then it shouldn't make too much of a difference what turbo you are running...it's in the low end for spooling is where you should be concerned.


jason
95 GS turbo

LAST EDITED ON 11-Dec-00 AT 07:12 AM (PST)

LOL.

So who else is reading the digest here ;)
From the latest Talon Digest, the same current argument is going on. Rather than rehash or rephrase someone else's comments, read thispost - make sure you read Todd's comments at the end though -they are very important.

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:06:01 -0600
From: Charles O'Connell <skipchip@kscable.com>
Subject: 16G with no more power than a 14B?
Message-ID: <#37>

I don't know how many times this has been said before but here we go...

The engine is a limited displacement type. It can only pull in a specific
amount of air at any given RPM and boost.

So in order to accurately describe how much air is being displaced the boost
is added to 14.5 then divided by 14.5 this value is multiplied by the
naturally aspirated displacement of the engine at a given rpm point. An
example is: A 2.0 L engine at 3000 RPM and 15 LB of boost displaces <(15 +[br />14.5) / 14.5] * 105 = 214 CFM. Therefore the turbo only needs to flow 214 CFM
@ 15 lbs. to keep up with the engine. So a 16G @ 15 lbs is not going to put
505 CFM into the engine at 3000 RPM, only 214 CFM.

To find what turbo can meet this requirement a compressor flow map can be a
good tool to show the possible capabilities of a turbo. In the example given
a T25 would do the job. In fact it can keep up with the engine air flow
requirements up to about 5500 RPM. This shows a 16G will only provide more
power at RPMs higher than 5500 RPM. One question remains: can it flow 15 lbs
at low RPMs to meet the engine requirements?

Remember that the turbo wants to flow 505 CFM @ 15 lbs, the question is can it
spin slowly enough at a high efficiency to flow only 214 CFM, if so what is
the lowest RPM it can hold 15 lbs. at? (ignoring the turbine section right
now)

Looking at the map will show that it is right on top of the surge line. So in
effect it can, but it's not desirable to tax the turbo in order to do it.

So you may be saying "my 2.0 L engine can boost to 15 lbs. at 3000 RPM with my
16G". Well yeah it probably can. If the engine efficiency is higher at that
RPM than my example engine then the flow is increased and the point moves
within the acceptable efficiency range.

There are other factors such as intercooler efficiency, ambient temperatures,
so on and so forth. The description I gave above is just an overview of the
basics. Any person who modifies their turbocharged engine should know this so
they don't get stuck with a turbo that doesn't perform the way they want. For
example if a fast street car is what you want then the Garret T3 60 (not
super) with the T28 turbine the best way to go. You get the highest sensible
amount of boost to run on pump gas all the way to redline and the boost comes
on early (before the super).

(Below, I take issue only with the 2nd and 3rd paragraph above.)

Your derating equation ignores temperature. In the ideal gas law, it
is as important a factor as pressure or volume. The efficiency of the turbo
directly relates to the temperature of the air it is pumping out, and
therefore how much air you can ultimately get into the cylinders. Your
equation might be right, but it also assumes the temperature output of the
16G at 214CFM is the same as the temperature output of the 14B at 214CFM.
I would think you'd have to come up with a similar derating factor for
outlet temperature. It would show that the 16G potentially could shove more
CFM into the cylinder than the 14B for the same pressure. It could do that
because the temperature is lower.

Also, assuming knock is not a factor, for equivalent CFMs and equivalent spark
timing and fuel, if the engine is consuming X CFM, it is going to make Y
horsepower, no matter what turbo you have on the engine. The problem is that
knock is indeed a factor, and a very big one at that. In general, the more
you advance your timing, the more horsepower you make. You have to back off
on timing as you increase boost because you also increase the tendency to
knock. It doesn't help that the air is probably getting hotter as well,
especially if you are beyond the most effecient pressure point on the turbo,
as the 14B is (I think, from my experience) at 15psi at 4000 RPM.

So, if you are at a point where the 14B is producing X psi and Y CFM,
the 16G will be producing 0.80X psi for the same Y CFM. This is a rough
estimate, as I don't have the compressor maps of either in front of me.
The 16G is producing the same amount of air at less boost. By PV=nRT,
the 16G is also producing much cooler air. This means you can run much
more timing for the same air consumption, resulting in more horsepower.
So you can see that there might indeed be an advantage in running a more
effecient turbo, even if you don't take full advantage of it.

I thought about trying to come up with a companion derating equation to your
(Pt+Pa)/Pa for temperature, but instead of that, I thought I'd give a real
world example. When the West Coast Caravan made the journey to Norwalk,
I was running my 20G with a FMIC. One of the other guys had a fairly
stock Talon. We had CB communications. As we went up this very long and
steep and constant grade, I pulled along the stock Talon and asked him to
match speed with me. Once we were stablized, I asked him to read me the
value on his non-stock boost gauge. He read 8psi. My reading was -2psi.
No, that isn't a misprint, if the turbo wasn't there, it would read -11psi
or so. Anyway, his 14B had to run 10psi higher than my 20G to make the
same power. Ultimately, his stock setup was less effecient than
my 20G setup. That was also reflected by an increase in my highway gas
mileage of about 2-4MPG after going to the 20G setup (of course, not all
due to the turbo).

In summary, I'm personally convinced that so long as you aren't too worried
about boost lag, you should strongly consider the turbo that best fits your
HP requirement without busting your budget. I've never personally cared
too much about boost lag as I find on my 90 AWD that first gear is so frickin
short that I'm out of it seemingly before I cross a normal two-lane quad-
stoplighted intersection. Plus my car has enough power to break parts on
launch as it is, so I don't care too much about the boost not coming on
at 2500. Once I'm out of first, the rest of the gears never see below 4000
anyway. Probably not the best autocross setup, though... :-)

-talon mgr


MuRiX
97 Eclipse GS HRC Stage II
And a whole lot of other mods...
89 Accord LSi - yes it's mine :(
http://murix.home.icq.com/index.html

but it
>wouldn't be able to keep
>the higher amounts of boost
>in the manifold at high
>rpms, since it doesn't flow
>as much air.

You just contradicted yourself! not to rag on you or anything but different size turbo do flow different amount "CFM" therefore 10psi on a t25 turbo is not the same as 10psi on a t4 turbo. You do have the right idea about the rpm's but that is why bigger turbos make more HP @ the same boost setting.


later,
Martin

So bored TBs aren't good for us with turbo setup? I have a bored TB lying around and am contemplating whether to put it on with the kit...



l e o n

I'm still using my old Mutiny bored TB with the turbo kit. It works just fine. It would be a good idea to install the TB well before the turbo, so you can make sure that it is working right. If something goes wrong, you'll know where to look.


Corbin
'95 ESI-T
HRC + FMIC
http://members.nbci.com/cbehnken/

if you take apart your wastegate...you will see why this is. that screw doesn't put more tension on the spring to raise the boost levels, what that spring does is adjust how far the wastegate opens. some larger motors, like say a grand national, would need the wastegate open the whole way at full boost...I don't think we do, since i can here my wastegate opening and closing slightly when i am at full boost. It kinda makes for a whirring noise slightly...thought it was detonation at first, but then i watched my boost gauge and you could see it fall off slightly. If you have that screw turned in too far though, it will not let the wastegate open the whole way, and at 7000 RPMS, and 10 Lbs. of boost, you will get boost creep if the wastegate opening is too small..even the 4g63's get it with a bigger turbo if you don't port the wastegate holes. I could never figure out how shawn was getting boost creep on my kit, that wastegate opening is huge...then i realized he thought he could turn his boost up that way...low and behold, he blew his motor with it, and now we can see that wyatt did his in the same way.

So, word of advice from me, spend even 40 bux, go the simple root, and get even a manual boost controller, it is so much safer!! Don't risk it by having too small of a wastegate!

jason
95 GS turbo