What to do when you want to boost 15+psi like the big boys and don't know how to supply enough fuel?

Well, we could scrape the outer edges of that by using an S-AFC and 440cc injectors, but we all know that's just a band aid answer. We also know that we're still dealing with bad fuel mileage from low end driving and we're still handcuffed if we want to go anything significantly above 15 psi.

Then, there's always the humongous 500-700cc injectors that WILL fit the bill. Why not use those? Well, as we all know, the S-AFC and the ecu can't handle those big boys. So what's the answer...A standalone ecu. Sure, that's worked for many here, and in an ideal world, we would all love to throw down that big money and go that route.

But, there is another solution. Why not go with that Additional Injector controller solution? I haven't yet had my internals built yet, but when I do (and I hope soon), I certainly want to boost 17-20 psi. I know Corbin has been working on this, and I just wanted people to know this is a fantastic alternative. Even reading within Maximum Boost, I saw there was that alternative mentioned and even a picture showing an intake manifold with secondary injectors. I already have my spare fuel rail, injectors and intake manifold. I'm just waiting to spend another ~$300 on an AIC and do this.

Here's some articles citing the advantages:
http://www.f-max.com/Fuel%20Management-Honda.htm
http://www.cronusmotorsports.com/tech_info/feat_turbopaper1.html

There are at least 3 companies out there selling these devices and they look simple enough. Moreover, you wouldn't have to spend a lot of money on high flow injectors. Just use an extra set of stock ones! That would mean initially, you have enough HP for well into the 300-350 HP level. (that doesn't even include an ability to add in bigger injectors and have enough fuel to boost well into the 400-500 HP level without losing off-boost driveability and idle!) And add onto that, you would eliminate the use for a rising rate FPR as the sole means of fuel, and you then regain all of your great off boost driveability with terrific gas mileage.

It seems complicated, but really, it isn't. All you're doing is welding in anywhere from 1 to 4 extra injectors into your intercooler piping(1 or 2) or your intake manifold runners (4) and then hooking the injectors up to your fuel line before the FPR and the controller. Thats' it. All of this for almost cheaper than buying an S-AFC and we'll get a boost reading ECU.

I just wish more of us looked elsewhere than rising rate FPR's or standalones as the only means to adding more fuel. To me, that's like all or nothing. Any of you people with built engines should really entertain this option. It's so simple, straightforward and effective,...it's scary. Why are so many of us only boosting ~10 psi?





(I know... I've been slumming it up over at neons.org) :-)

I saw that before and thought about it. Sounds like a good idea, but who will be the first one to try it with our setup????

Corbin already has it in the works. Once he makes a little headway into some of the little nuances (such as injector placement in the runners), I have everything needed save for the the actual AIC.

I've been weighing in on a couple of different controllers, one that's EZ to use with a coupele of knobs that activate the injector cycle percentage and the actual onset of fuel depending on vacuum/boost pressure and another that Corbin's using that is actually windows controlleable, but otherwise, they're all the same (basically). I'm just not so sure how much I want to involve myself in the tuning and the accuity of tuning I desire.

They, for the most part, hook into your boost pressure, and tach signal (RPM) and add fuel according to those parameters. And those parameters are the key ones. Moreover, they all use an ecu and a 2 to 3 bar map sensor in their readings. It's all very impressive to me, for costing so little!

holy shit. 2 fuel rails and 8 injectors....almost like a V-8 block :)

I've wonder about that.

now what about when it comes time to do emmisions? then you need an extra intake manifold, or ic piping (depending on where you mount the injector. so pass smog. Well at least here in ca.
I'd like to see one that uses stock injectors in the stock location and then 1-4 extra ones depending on the amount of boost your running, mounted (wherever) contolres by the map sensor and rpms. That way we still keep out gas mileage and have the extra when needed.

well it seems that that is the basic priciple here.. while driving under normal conditions.. you will only use the stock injectors, but when you boost it flips the extra ones on and more fuel when needed.. :-) i really like this idea and when i get around to going turbo this may definatly be part of my setup.. now.. for that turbo money.. :-)

Jason must be as excited about this as I am. I am expecting great results. My intake manifold should be done by tomorrow morning. The controller is already installed. Then its just up to the weather to bring a few warm days my way so I can install the rest. I'm not sure what hoops you have to jump through for emmissions, but if the extra injectors are in the intake manifold then the mod is virtually invisible. Mine are actually mounted in the bottom of the intake manifold runners, mirroring the stock injectors. I am expecting perfect driveability and mileage, with the ability to dump massive amounts of fuel when I upgrade internals.


Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...

Corbin, I can hardly wait to start this project.

I'm extremely anxious to see your physical placement of everything! (injector placement on manifold, fuel rail and lines)

Super sweet!!! Post some pics of the manifold.. Where did you get the contorller? I've seen them somewhere before, but i did'nt know they had some that would work corsponding to boost..

There isn't anything yet (as far as pictures), but Corbin will show you his results once he's got it going.

There are a bunch of them out there (you can take your pick)...just do a yahoo search on "fuel injector controllers."

Here's one for example:

http://www.sdsefi.com/eic.html

I didn't want to take any thunder away from all of Corbin's work here since he's the one who's had the intiative and the courage to take this project on. I just wanted other people to realize there are other ways to kill a cat, and shouldn't just pour all of their money into intermediate injectors with S-AFC's. Plus, I'm just REALLY excited about all of this. Really it's quite amazing being that there are so many people, originally naturally aspirated and now turbo'ed, on this board and noone has gone this route.

To me, before I had read a lot about this, going the extra injector route sounded a bit tedious, expensive, unorthodox, and very irregular from other methods of fuel enrichment. (4 + whatever injectors!?! that's crazy..right? Wrong.) After reading up on it, and seeing an integra at the track use a similar +2 injector setup and realize a .5 second improvement on his 1/4 mile with BETTER fuel mileage after losing the rising rate FPR system had me thinking. And this was well after Corbin has announced that he was going to go this route.

I can't wait to just dump my old rising rate FPR system too. One of those above articles I posted talked about overly rich conditions at the onset of boost before optimum performance, and other negative side effects to our fuel systems. Well, that's exactly how my system is. Sometimes...(not all of the time)...right at the onset of boost, it kind of hesitates or bogs, and then bam...it takes off. It makes perfect sense too.

I can't wait to get rid of this fuel system. It works, it's efficient, and it's cheap, but's it's certainly NOT optimal.

Actually if you mount the extra 4 injectors like corbin is planning (under the intake manifold) you will have no problem passing visual inspection because you CANT see them unless you look REALLLY hard!

I got rebuilt internals

I got extra manifolds and stock injectors and fuel rails

I am still going the safc route for 440's until corbin can prove me wrong ;)

Then i'm just a few "bungs" welded away ;)

...Start playing with Corbin's fuel formulas and use "8" injectors within those formulas versus "4" and you quickly realize how attainable higher HP levels are with much more reasonable fuel pressures and injector sizes.

That's probably the #1 reason why I started thinking..."440cc injectors just aren't gona work for my HP goals!"

But I don't need to tell all of this to you, Kiku...you're the fuel guru Mr."I-brought-up-with-the-reason-why-one-fuel-pump-can't-cut-it-with-">100psi"-fuel-pressures!" :-) ;-)

Many of the high-dollar turbo kits come this way. Some production cars (RX7 TurboII is one, i believe) were this way, as well, with staged injector configurations.

Of all the times i thought about it, i wondered, too, why no one was openly trying it. Did you know that HRC has already moved this way with thier RS? Did you know as well that the long-lost Wyatt has done this (or was attempting this, last i heard) on his GS?

One day, i'm sure i'll go this route.. Moore's law.. I've got to double my HP every 18 months or so, because the driving forces behind it work in such ways ;-)

hahaha like i said, i'll be happy with 440s/safc/rising rate for a bit, but i agree that second set of injectors is optimal. Seems like a lot of the kits for hondas include 1 or 2 extra injectors for this reason...

Oh btw, if anyone is getting rid of a vortech sfmu, hit me up ;) sorry for the shameless plug here lol!

So, is a s-afc still needed w/ this set up?

Nope...you can control everything now in the AIC computer whether that be through a laptop or set of knobs.

That's the only reason why people use S-AFC's in the first place; because you can't couldn't control your stock ecu and it's control of your fuel injectors.

This is cool:-) I can't wait to see how it works out on Corbins car.

i think part of the orignial discussion Jason is talking about was actually with my friend rob, who is doing a turbo saturn project, and brought up the AIC, specially the one pictured above. he brought it up on the ASOG board and i remember jason and rob having a lil discussion going on about it. My friend has been planning to use 8 injectors on his project for quite sometime. hes having a rebuilt motot put in his car now, and he'll hopefully be turbo-d by summer, so hopefully ill get an upclose look at one of these setups.

i was considering going this route as well, even got lucky when i scored an extra fuel rail and injectors...well, i needed cash, got a great deal on some 315cc injectors, and went ahead and put my extra stuff up for sale. now im going to try and run 315's w/o a SAFC...im running them right now, but with my fpr, i run way to rich. getting a SFMU soon, so hopefully ill have everything sorted out and running well. 315's are enough to support the hp goals i have, at least on stock internals, but when i do eventually rebuild (hopefully not for a long time ;)) i may go ahead and do the xtra injector route, depending on my friends results.

Good luck corbin!

I scored an intake from trading some parts. I was contemplating having it P/P and getting some injectors. I already have a S-AFC. Should I sell the thing and wait for Corbin? It sounds not only more reliable, but also more cost-effective. You can pick up an extra set of injectors for dirt. Send them out to be cleaned and balanced and have the intake welded up (prob no more than 200 bucks). You can spend 200 just on bigger injectors alone! I think I'll wait this one out. Corbin and other fuel guru's haven't done anybody wrong yet. I hope he finishes soon b/c I'm getting school giddy over here!

Speaking of shameless plugs, I have 2 spare sets of stock injectors I might be persuaded to get rid of.... I almost wish my motor wasn't already setup with 625's and the dfi system. This way sounds so much more streetable. Good luck guys.

Mail me with how much you want. I have to buy another friggin book first.

wow.. thanks for bring this up.. i was thinking about adding more fuel injectors... but then i dismissed it as one of my crazy newbie fantasies... but i guess it really CAN be done?

Anyone have any ties with Gary or Bill from AF/X and HRC and bring this thread to their attention so they can comment on this?

doesnt the new edge racing turbo kit (stage 4+) come with a setup like this? as in it has 8 injectors? now if theyd only release it...

So does the AIC control all the injectors, or just the additional injectors.

The AIC only controls your additional injectors and not your stock ones. Your stock ones would still be controlled by your stock ecu. The AIC would just regulate when/how much the additional injectors would spray.

Hey how were you guys planning on doing the fuel pressure in the 2nd rail? 2 regulators or 1 with 2 ports? I'm guessing you'll be adding return lines if the car doesn't already have it right?

So i guess you guys are planning on running 10's or what? cause if your running 8 injectors for the street you must be super fast now right? late mike

Ok I was actually thinking of getting new injectors and a s-afc but if this is more cost efficent and much better i might go this way....but what exactly do you need i know you need extra injectors and the AIC and another fuel rail but is that all you need...or is there much more involved....and for about how much total cost will this whole setup cost? thanks and if it's not too expensive im going this way also....anything to get more fuel to my engine....

First off, you can just put the second fuel rail in-line after the first and before the feul pressure regulator. There's no need to run any additional fuel lines except for the one between the first rail and the second. The fuel pressure regulator really can physically be located anywhere whether that be back by the gas tank or in the engine compartment. It's only function is to control, or regulate, the amount of fuel pressure after the fuel rail or rails. Just imagine a valve...who cares where you put it.

Secondly, does this necessarily have to be a modification for the ultra-horsepower people? No...no way...not at all. It's an IMPROVEMENT is all. The great benefit to this change though, is it will allow you to have a very high threshold, BUT at the same time allow a better controlleable fuel system for levels as low as 5 psi. What's the harm of being able to totally control the extra amount of fuel you want under boost electronically as opposed to mechanically. (this is a rhetorical question) Of course, it's better! That's why we all drive electronically fuel injected cars instead of carbuerated ones.

Lastly, the costs of this as opposed to intermediate injectors with S-AFC or a standalone. Well, let's take a look:

System 1 (FPR method w/ S-AFC and intermediate 440 injectors):
S-AFC- $325
440cc injectors - $360
total = $685

*upgradeability to about ~15 psi (HRC), and maybe less with the STAR, with poor off boost driveability/ gas mileage

System 2 (Standalone with 600+ injectors)
$1500 for everything from HRC

*absolutely the ultimate in control and upgradeability...but it is expensive, and tuning won't be easy.

System 3 (extra injectors)
EIC- $300
stock injectors w/ harness- $20-$30
stock fuel rail- $20
various parts and labor for custom work on manifold - $100
(optional extra Lower intake manifold - $50 )
total = $500 (high end)

*terrific low end mileage/ driveability, amongst the three options, the cheapest, moderate amount of tuning involved, and the upgradeability is only limited by the size of injectors that can be controlled by the EIC; this amount typically approaches 450-500HP when added to stock injector capabilites.

i get stock gas milage and excellent off boost performance with my 440's and AFC. Not to say it's "better" one way or the other, but i suffer none of the drawbacks you listed for the setup.

Damn i have no clue what to do to get more fuel now...hmmmmmmmm

ok, drewl over here...
Corbin let us know how it goes man!!

This is too funny, all that pressure on Corbin.

EIC is a very good idea, but it's very hard to tune through the whole rpm band. One knob controlls when it starts giving fuel, one knob sets amount of fuel. I still think 440cc + S-afc is better, expect the high fuel pressure that FMU gives you. BTW, 440cc user, which rate of disc do you use? 8:1 or 6:1?

3:1, here.

how much boost are you running? Do you use SFMU? I have a fully built bottom end. I might be boosting 12~13psi after broken in and dyno tuned. I still trying to find some 440cc or 550cc too keep the fuel pressure lower with SFMU.

Well, my bad Dino. I've only had second-hand comments from others to qualify my statements regarding the 440's. I'm glad they're working out well for you. My impression of that setup is probably skewed then. I also think my statements above are more than propoganda-biased after looking at them again. I think I'm just a bit excited about this approach for my own personal reasons.

Also, as to that particular AIC that I've referenced above, that variety of AIC has to be the most simple and basic model, that as someone has mentioned is only boost and RPM relative to a single linear injector adjustment, and won't provide differing injector cycle amounts of fuel at differing boost ratios. There are many others though. I just referenced that one, since I think it is so easy to use.

It appears, I won't be going with that one anyhow. I think I'm going with the one Corbin is using that's Windows' software controllable.

However, I think generally that people will be pleased with whatever path they choose in their fuel enrichment. Please don't take my comments as if there's only one way to go. :-)

(maybe we should lock this thread...it's getting a bit long, and if people have other questiosn regarding it, they can start other more specific threads) Thanks!

I just wanted to share ;-)

My setup with the 440's, AFC and plain-jane FMU has worked fine for driveability, both on and off boost.

I do believe, however, that the multi-bank injector setup y'all are attempting will offer a greater degree of control and tuneability, while still retaining factory off-boost operation. it also removes any sort of ceiling on your power level due to limitations in your piggyback fuel controller (AFC, in most cases).

I'm glad there is innovation, certainly. I just didn't want anyone to get an incorrect impression of what i've come to see as the usual upgrade path, in a stage between out-of-the-box and a standalone ;-)

It is worth mentioning that I ran 18psi on the AFC and so does Joe A.

I think it is a good idea, but I prefer the idea of not having my stock ecu touch any of my fuel requirements. My current setup (DFI, 625's, 1:1 regulator, inline pump, stock rail, stock lines) uses a 3-bar map sensor, no defencers our any other magic tricks, a 1:1 regulator that never needs adjusting, large injectors that can handle anything I throw at it, full tunability period, and no mess. I actually find my car to be more driveable now on the DFI than on my previous setup and less components to fail as well as less stress on the components there. I failed emissions, but I know why and that can be fixed easily.

I do know that cost is the prohibitive factor and that is where this setup you guys are looking at would shine. Best of luck with what you learn. I like to see people thinking. The more money we can save the better.

No FCD? I figured that I would have to keep that so the stock ecu wouldn't freak out and screw with spark or something. Would it hurt to leave it on since it's already wired in? I will have the exact same setup as you by this time next week. Wish me luck.

It will not hurt to leave it. I actually just had mine removed recently so I could sell it.

Here's a bit of a teaser for those interested...



I just need to find a spare fuel fitting that goes into the second fuel rail. This is the O-ring fitting that feeds the rail (see "Sale/Wanted" forum). If you can help me get one of these, I would really appreciate it.


Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...