Damnit stan! lol

here goes...this is kinda gonna be long....

OK, lemme first see that I got the basic principles here....

Engine is running>hot exahust air goes through manifold > air is forced through turbo with air filter filtering the dust and dirt particles? > air is then forced out at a much higher psi level now through the intercooler where it is cooled down a lot > air then goes through throttle body piping from intercooler back down into engine to spin crank and push pistons harder > therefore more power? I'm just confused where the air escapes to go down into the downpipe out to the exhaust tailpipe.... Don't laugh but I've only helped install a star stage II on joe's car. (shogun)

SO according to stan, and Mike Jury....

I need the following?

-Junkyard Turbo (which kind and what car do i search for?)
-Junkyard IC (from starion or another car?)
-Somehow fabricate a exhaust manifold for turbo? (suggestions? or can I get that from Wyatt or HRC?)
-IC piping made by a buddy at a local muffler shop?
-AFC
-Boost controller
-Gauges, pod, etc
-BIGASS fuelpump (i'm thinking off a supra at a junkyard)
-wastegaste(suggestions?)
-oil pan catch and lines (should be easy like stan said)
-K&N filter
-BOV ??
-now what about the ECU? I remember dino having to tap in and do something to Joe's ECU


Is this all u need to do all this stuff? I need to figure out a game plan and how much any and all parts would cost, and difficulty on making some parts, etc. Any open suggestions are welcome, and especially Mike Jury and stan I need ur help on this. I know alot of u guys don't suggest this, but I hear stan talking about it, Thura is talking about it. And we know it can be done...as Mike Jury HAS done it. Granted he's a LOT more experienced and knows his stuff. Keep in mind guys this will be on a stock 420A motor. I got 2 more yrs to pay off this damn thing But at least I wanna have some fun and have around 4-6 psi. Hell it's better than being NA, right? ;-)

Please explain to me the entire process of how/when/where air is going through the motor, and what parts do I need, and if I even have the concept grasped correctly. This sounds like a great idea. Anyone else have any ideas or feedback?




admin@dsmscene.com

"Anything in parenthesis can (not) be ignored."

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=599224640&r=0&t=0

WOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


admin@dsmscene.com

"Anything in parenthesis can (not) be ignored."

The exhaust gas spins the turbine and goes in to the downpipe and out of the exhaust.

That ebay kit is a manifold for a 4g63. You can have a company weld you a manifold, but what about just using the stock manifold and welding a turbo flange on it? It could work but you would have to find a turbo that would fit. I would say if you aren't looking to boost really high, get a t-25 because they spool up quick so you will have power down at lower rpms than the larger turbos.

Look for used turbos on www.thepartstrader.com and www.dsmtrader.com

http://www.gopartstrader.com/cgi-bin/suite/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?request=detail&ad_id=23306&category_id=112&sub_id=1067&variable_file=merchandise.variables&page=&set=1&position=7&total_count=1066&website=default&prev_action=display_sub_list&session=3c20abd35df68ed5
http://www.gopartstrader.com/cgi-bin/suite/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?request=detail&ad_id=23201&category_id=112&sub_id=1067&variable_file=merchandise.variables&page=59&set=4&position=75&total_count=1066&website=default&prev_action=display_sub_list&session=3c20abd35df68ed5




current status unknown

http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/

Perf:
KYB AGX Struts
Neuspeed Sport Springs
5 Strut Bars (2 F/U, F/L, R/U, R/L)
Sprint Front Camber Kit
$15 Rear Camber Kit
Corbin's A/F Gauge
MSD DIS-2 Ignition System
Some Regrind Cams that need High Compression (which I don't have)
Ported Intake Manifold
Ported Throttle Body
Nameless Cold Air Intake with a K&N Filter
Custom 2 1/2 inch exhaust with Dual DTM Muffler
Empty Catalytic Convertor
Energy Suspension Motor Mount inserts
Hurricane_GS Short Shifter
Symborsky Shift Kit
Clutchmasters Stage 3 Modular
225/50/16inch Wheels and Tires


Audio:
Alpine CD Head Unit
Alpine Flex4 25W X 4 for Fronts and Rears
Alpine V-12 450W X 1 for Subs
Infinity Reference Series 5 1/4 and 1 inch tweeter component systems for fronts and rears
Blaupunkt 3 way 6x9's in the rears
3 MTX 5000 10" 12 ohm subs running 4 ohms mono

you could use the stock manifold? Who would weld that? any machinist? I'm thinking get a junk manifold from a eclipse at a junkyard then....interesting... anyone else have input? What about my turbo'd guys here.....

If the exhaust goes from the turbo through the downpipe, then what / where does air come from through air filter and intercooler?!?



admin@dsmscene.com
To all da Haterz: _|_ tia
"Anything in parenthesis can (not) be ignored."

I don't think this is a good idea.

I feel that you'd end up spending far more money trying to build up this kit than you would saving up and buying a stage 1.

But if you must... Look up Alain on asog.net. He makes 420A turbo manifolds.

There is a guy on the Houston DSM list selling a 14b w/ 50K on it.

Go to town..

The exhaust goes straight out but on its way out spins a wheel which blows air back into the tb.

Save up for a stage 1. I dont think you want to fab your own unless your name is Ray Sabinske.

Coming up with parts here and there is way easier for me and my bills/situation, etc than to save up for $2-3k. So, any more input on parts and information, and not whether I should do this or not is the question at hand here. tia




admin@dsmscene.com
To all da haterz: _|_ tia
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Hey Mike,

If you want to try it go for it but there are ALOT of risks involved. here are the things that you will need.

turbo - (get one in GOOD condition or you'll end up getting another one) ... if you get one that's internally gated you won't need an external wastegate

IC - it's not neccessary but might as well. Get a decent one for what you plan on doing

manifold - either weld your own custom or try to weld a flange on the stock manifold (might have problems because welding on cast iron)

bov - if you're only running 4-6psi the hks standard will do ... otherwise get a good one

fuel pump - get a walbro or a holley or an inline something or other

fuel pressure regulator - gotta have it

air filter - for the turbo

oil return line - feed the turbo it oil (and you have to tap the oil pan)

catch can - might as well

gauges - boost, egt, a/f at least

downpipe - turbo to the cat

i/c piping - hook everything up

misc stuff - silicone connectors, o-rings, flanges, bolts, screws, etc.

Now the list looks simple but you have one big problem ... can't make any of the piping till all the stuff is on to begin with. You gotta make brackets for the IC too (shouldn't be a big deal). Most of this stuff isn't a big deal ... it's just there is a lot of downtime involved and alot of garage work that you have to do. It's not meant to discourage you just to make sure you're aware of everything before going into it. Plus if something goes wrong you'll be limited to resources because it is a custom setup. I think that's it but I could've easily left something out in the list of parts.

-Paul

Remember how long it took Stan to install his turbo kit after he sold it. And remember how long it took to do that stage 2 down in Texas. Well if you have at least 2 weeks of break time you can probably get it done. You are lucky you live with a bunch of people. I just sold that manifold that you could have used but I would have let you have it for $120 but someone bought it for $345 on ebay lol.

I think the big parts like pipes and turbo and ic are easy.
is the little things that get u stuck.
conecting the FMU or FPR.
getting the right an fittings for the oil feed line.
you will need to purchase a cv1 for the cpu.
you might want to get a hold of a manual (like the hrc one) and look at all the pieces and get an idea of what they do and where they go so that you will not run into any major problems.

Whoops ... forgot one very important piece since your are 97+ ... VC1!!!!!

I don't think the small things will even be that bad. But you have to get the piping done when you have the manifold/turbo and the IC on. Unless you have a place that will let you work on your car there while they make the piping for you, you'll most like have to tow it there then tow it back or make some arrangements to get all that piping made. Then you still have to make sure it all fits.

-Paul

Fabricating your own kit is going to be risky and time/money consuming. You already know it can be done and done well. Take your time and you'll be ok. It's a bit disheartening to hear you ask questions about how a turbo works in the same paragraph as asking how to build a kit from scratch. The first thing I would do is order "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. Its not that much money and it is a GREAT resource for those new to the turbo game. While you read the book and gather spare parts you will gain almost all the necessary knowledge to build this kit. We can help with the rest. Be careful always, the last thing we want to see is another blown engine (especially on a car with 2 years left to pay).

BTW: I didn't know that much when I put my HRC kit on. The instructions didn't tell me to hook a vacuum line from the turbo to wastegate, so I didn't. The turbo just kept spooling...I ended up boosting 14 psi and scaring the shit out of myself. Good engine design and luck are the only reason that I still have a running car.


Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...

Thanks paul and everyone else! You have been very helpful and I applaud your advice and critism. I understand where you are coming from as well dino. It seems like the piping would be the only issues. Prolly what I would do, as soon as I finally have all the necessary parts sitting in my living room...I would then "mount" everything in its spots on the car and do a TON of measuring. I am real good at ray-tracing and cad stuff on the PC so I can come up with design specs and diagrams if necessary for almost any welding/machine shop. I have had to do it before for computer main frame chasis....granted that was sheetmetal or aluminum, but hey , it can't be that much different. Thanks a thousand times guys, and you have definitely helped me make some involving descions.....

Anyone else with input or details lemme know. I guess I am also curious to see what Murix, Mike Jury, and Brad have to say about this idea....(hint hint)

:) TIA


admin@dsmscene.com
To all da haterz: _|_ tia
"Anything in parenthesis can (not) be ignored."

....to be continued.

You seem to have a lot of interest in it so I think the first thing you should do is really try to decide what you want your car to be. Super huge turbo drag car or a peppy daily driver. That way you can figure out the turbo you want to run. Then figure out how much you want to spend total (the price of the turbo alone can range from $100 to $1000+). I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet but you'll need to decide on a turbo before you make your manifold. The flanges will be different depending on the turbo and you may want to figure where you will put your wastegate if you end up getting an external one. But most importantly you need to decide on where you want your car to end up (it'd be a waste of your time if you wanted like a 13sec car and bolted up a t25 ... you'd never get there).

-Paul

P.S. If you want a quick overview of how a turbocharger works ... www.howstuffworks.com ... but also get the Corky Bell book. It's the "Turbo bible".

well mikee if you are still willing to go on with this i'll part with one of my 14b turbos for 100 bucks. no shaft play. used for a shortwhile and works great. let me know if ya want it. and i'll include a 4g63 manifold with it too you can play with.

Well I'm not recommending for or against anybody doing there own kit but without a daily driver you will probably need ALOT of rides to work. For me it just cant be too hard (not that it will be very fun to do either). More than likely once parts are collected it will take all of a day until it gets time for the downpipe, intercooler and piping. At this point the car will sit, get towed to the muffler shop, sit some more, get towed to he muffler shop, sit some more...you get the picture. That damn Wyatt would come in useful for the oil T fitting but other than that I will have no trouble finding parts...except the manifold. Getting one is easy. Getting a reliable one or one for cheap is a whole other challenge.

Whats this about wastegate? This will be a getto set up, it will use what ever internal wastegate the turbo has. All I need to complete the fuel system is 10 minutes and an FMU. I'll use the same shit I just took out.

When I installed my kit when I sold it A) I was going from a OBDI to OBDII which meant a few new steps I didn't have to do. B) I HAD to finish over the weekend. C) Its one thing to do a turbo but usually sh*t like gauges and misc would be done before putting on the turbo. Jumping from turbo to gauges to intercooler ect plays on your mental. it will be totally different with no time restraints and no real expectations. I couldn't even give myself any rationalization to even bother other than it would be cool to bring a turbo talon and VR6 GTI parked next to each other at NOPI. So that is my inspiration. Otherwise do you know how nice $4000 or $5000 can make a new spotless VW.

well put stan. Nice post. What recommendations do you suggest in my situation? I'd love to pick your brain more about this next time your on AIM. Hit me up sometime when you see me online and your not busy....thanks!

:)



admin@dsmscene.com
To all da haterz: _|_ tia
"Anything in parenthesis can (not) be ignored."

I want a fast daily driver that would not have any problems smoking a v8 mustang or camaro. (not the cobras or ss) I want to be able to beat 80% of Houston daily drivers. So, we're looking at what, a 13-14 sec car? That is what would keep me happy and content. And to have a bigass FMIC showing through the front end to make people's heads turn. That's all I really care about :P

Yes, I figured that I would have to know what turbo I got before I get the flange fitted on a manifold. Does any of this information help as to what kind of turbo, IC, piping etc., I should get? thanks!



admin@dsmscene.com
To all da haterz: _|_ tia
"Anything in parenthesis can (not) be ignored."

Hey greeneclipse! I hear from dave_fl u got a custom setup going on.... give me some feedback or if ur on AIM i got a few questions fer ya! ;-)



admin@dsmscene.com
To all da haterz: _|_ tia
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Like I said earlier I was the one that sold part of grneclipse's custom set-up. Want to know the reason he sold it? Becuase he had a lot of trouble with it.

Here is the text that I used in my ebay add:

-Manifold (I paid 420 for the manifold and downpipe)
-Stock t-25 turbo used $100 off thepartstrader.com
The reason that I chose a t-25 was because my car is a daily driver and I can not risk my car blowing up from a bigger
turbo, I never hit anything over 10 psi on the t-25 (stock), and because it is such a small turbo there is essentially no lag
time, it spools about 2100 rpms which is great for the auto tranny.
-Walbro Fuel pump 255hpl $55 used off dsmtrader.com

*these next few parts are just pipings that you will need to make yourself, such as the upper intercooler pipe, the lower
pipe and the downpipe, hope you have a performance shop nearby or you will be having a hell of a time piecing this
thing together, I spent about $150 in piping

-Starion intercooler $60 dollars + $60 dollars worth of modifying the pipes
-BOV $50 dollars ( I have a 1st gen BOV, works great sounds great)
-VC1 (FUEL CUT DEFENSER) since you're obd-2 like me, you will need this so it'll trick you're comp. to not see boost $90

-Bell adjustble Fuel Pressure Regulator $150, which gives your car my gas when it sees boost

-Miscellanous equipment, (You will need to buy at least an a/f and a boost gauge) I bought them new at 50 bucks apiece,
but on the partstrader.com they run about 25 bucks apiece used

Would I do it again....NO,
Mike it was such a pain in the ass, and true, It only cost me about 1200 dollars in parts but I had so much down time, because I got in certain parts, thought it was ready to bolt up, called RAY up here from Miami and we were missing just the stupidest, hardest to find fittings. Let me tell you about what you need.


turbo - (get one in GOOD condition or you'll end up getting another one) ... if you get one that's internally gated you won't need an external wastegate.

(tru that, I got a t-25 for about 100 bucks to my house)

IC - it's not neccessary but might as well. Get a decent one for what you plan on doing

(like he said, Don't need it but MAKE SURE what the wastegate on your turbo is set at. Originally I was going to go stage one but I found out at the last minute that the t-25 is set at about 10 lbs. Otherwise my turbo would've only cost me like 900 dollars) I ended up using a Starion intercooler. Picked it up for 60 on thepartstrader and got the welding done on it for 60 more.

manifold - either weld your own custom or try to weld a flange on the stock manifold (might have problems because welding on cast iron)

<dude, this guy is on the ball!! Ok, the situation with this. I had a bad ass tubular manifold, it was *equal lengths* header styled, ONLY problem is....it kept cracking *I think because one of my motor mounts is shot or gone or seomthing, cause my motor moves like a biznitch* but compared to the Star Manifold I have on my car now, It felt a lot faster with the tubular style than the log Star. BTW The t-25 WILL bolt up to the stock manifold on your car right now...... BUT you will not have enough clearance for your downpipe and AC. And he's also right about making an adapter plate for the 4g63 manifold, Cast Iron does not bond well with the other welding.
I got my manifold and downpipe for about 400 skrillaz

bov - if you're only running 4-6psi the hks standard will do ... otherwise get a good one
I gots my 1st gen from Ray, you can pick one up for about 40 bucks if that.


fuel pump - get a walbro or a holley or an inline something or other
Yup I actually had a Accell Inline but it blew up on me (dont' ask)
So I had to next day a Walbro Intank for 100 bucks

fuel pressure regulator - gotta have it
I got the BELL Adjustable FPR, 160 bucks

air filter - for the turbo
Got it, GOOD!

oil return line - feed the turbo it oil (and you have to tap the oil pan)
Go to your local Hydraulic shop and get it done (Bring in your turbo and your t-fitting that goes to the back of your block and tell him you need a steel braided line about 3-4 ft long from that fitting to the turbo), or order it from RRE if you like getting it up your ass
I paid like 70 bucks SHIZ ish expensive

catch can - might as well
I just routed mine back into the filter

gauges - boost, egt, a/f at least
I bought them new at Carparts.com, Paid 120 bucks for two gauges and a tri pillar, I got the boost and the a/f

downpipe - turbo to the cat
Came with my manifold

i/c piping - hook everything up
Pretty damn hard to do without having downtime on your car, I hope you're good with pre-mandrel bent pipes and fabing up the design in your head
I think I paid around 100-200 bucks in piping

misc stuff - silicone connectors, o-rings, flanges, bolts, screws, etc.
This is what kills you.......
Finding that stupid fitting that goes from the fuel rail to the FPR
Finding the fitting that goes from the fuel filter to your stock fuel feed line
Just a bunch of little things that you will have a good time looking for, I actually found all the fittings I needed at the Hydraulic shop..............after I bought it from HRC, at about %25 percent of the price I paid...
Price I paid: Between Silicone hoses and fittings and NEXT DAY air from RRE and HRC, At least 300 bucks

vc1
79 bucks i think


I think that's all the parts, I'm sure I missed something, tell you the truth, RAY did most of the install for me but there were some HARD ass parts that I do remember

Taking the oil pan off and drilling the hole, I'm leaking oil still, Gotta fix that soon
Buying a bendable brake line to use as my feul return, RAY had to route that bad boy under my car all the way from the engine bay to the gas tank....
ETC ETC
BUT, i only paid 1200 in parts..........sooooooo take it as you want to bro....if you gots questions go ahead and ask, I got all my answers and help from Ray, Mario (thunderRS), Jason Esi-T, and Corbin as well as Wheatking......if you're serious...consult these people as well....WHEW!!



Mick

Shogun Body Kit
GTR Flared Wing
Arospeed Muffler
Half red-Clear Tails
QT s-08 18" THEY ARE GONE, I"M REPPING TEAM 14
Toyo Proxes Z4 215/18/35
..some turbo thingy me and Ray pieced together...

thanks a bunch! I appreciate it a lot. So I am guessing you sold it and your nonturbo again? Or did you buy the HRC?

As for your answers...that defintely helped me out a bunch. I am going to make this a very verrrrrry slow process and take my time on it. Hell like I said before, I got 2 yrs to pay this thing off. So I will probably be spending a year getting all the parts. Then, making drawings and measuring piping so then I can just go to the hydralic shop and muffler shop and say..."here, I want this made and cut exactly this long, and etc., etc.." Then, save up my vacation time and wait...patiently. Vacation time comes around? I got a week to get it up and running. Like a few months before I even go on vacation I would do as everyone said and already have my gauges and "prep" stuff already installed and ready for the "kit". That was a good idea. As for vacation? I will try and do the bolt ons the first day/night and then spend all week getting the piping to fit and all the misc hoses and fittings, etc like you all said. I am really pumped about this. Some of the most knowledgeable turbo guys are here in houston. I got a year or 2 to read up on everything, do my research, etc. No use in rushing things...

heck i've already learned so much in less than a year now anyways, thanks to all of u. heh. Me helping out with joe (shoguns') turbo install with dino taught me alot as well about our cars.


It's kinda cool though, cause right now I am seeing everyone's mistakes and I am learning YOUR history and knowing what not to do and what I can do to NOT blow up my engine, etc and make this turn out a little more luckier than some have had so far. I think it's great, cause everyone learns by each other's mistakes. I am very grateful for the replies, guys.




admin@dsmscene.com
To all da haterz: _|_ tia
"Anything in parenthesis can (not) be ignored."

GreenEclipse where did you get the oil T fitting. I forsee trouble finding one without beating it out of Star or Hahn. I'm sure some Hardware/pluming shop has em sitting around but where did you go.

Nah, still turbo, can't go back to being N/A after feeling boost you know. I got a star manifold really cheap and made an adapter plate from my t-25 to the manifold........and that's all there is to that story



Mick

Shogun Body Kit
GTR Flared Wing
Arospeed Muffler
Half red-Clearm Tails
QT s-08 18"
Toyo Proxes Z4 215/18/35
..some turbo thingy me and Ray pieced together...

Me and Ray got it at Home Depot, i'll hit him up and see what size that fitting was....


Mick

Shogun Body Kit
GTR Flared Wing
Arospeed Muffler
Half red-Clearm Tails
QT s-08 18"
Toyo Proxes Z4 215/18/35
..some turbo thingy me and Ray pieced together...

Well mike, i will try to shed some light on how the turbo systme actually works, in a very simple way. When the engine is running, the exaust gases are forced out of the engine and hit a metal wheel with fins on it, which causes it to turn. The exaust gases go past the wheel, and strait out the exaust pipe. Now at the other side of that turbine wheel, is another turbine with fins on it, totally isolated from the exaust gases and exaust system. This wheel while turning, is creating air pressure, kind of like a shop air compressor to get the idea. Now this pressurized air(boost) is going to either travel to an intercooler(this is to make the air charge cooler, = more power), or straight to the intake manifold depending on the stage turbo you have. This forced induction is what makes all the power. It "jams" air into the cylinders, creating a much more compressed air/fuel charge than being drawn in N/A. We all know now that higher compression yields higher output! The more tightly you compress the mixture, the powerful the explosion will be..Hope this help you to understand a lil bit.

mike i wish u good luck! it's a PAIN IN THE ASS!! I still can't drive my car more than 5 miles without a bolt coming loose from my turbo manifold or something stupid. Make sure u got all the welding and fittings done correctly! Or you will will keep on and on and on resizing and refitting piping nonstop. I barely got 500-1000 miles on my setup now, and it's taken at least 6 months to get at where i am at now. Good luck and if you have any questions lemme know.

-thanks, mike.

mike u got another car? or is this your only daily driver? *curious

How did you come up with all your parts? used? new? how much total cost?




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HA! hell no! I gotta 91 ford escort! (dont make fun of me!) ;-)

i got most or all (85%) of my parts used or off buddies from yards. I can't estimate how much i have spent...but on average something new breaks under the hood ever since i did this and i spend on average around a $100 per week for new parts or misc crap that breaks off or litereally flies off the turbo parts.