--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok everyone time to let everyone know that im going to build a twincharged 420a using a m90 supercharger and a T3/T4 turbo..

I have been doing alot of searching around and the only company i found that even makes a supercharger kit for the 420a is Boosthead.com or Thomas Knight. Some of us know thomas knight from the past as the only on that makes a Roots based kit for the 420a.

My goals
1. be the first twincharged 420a.
2. Have about 300tq from 2krpm all the way to red line.
3. This car is my daily driver so its not going to be too crazy lol..i say that but we know how the last car turned out..
4. Also this time around Im going to do all the work my self!!! except for some fab here and there.

its going to be a pretty mild build im going to tune the car on either the portfueler or the symtech PnP if i can get my hands one one lol

I would like this car to see some track time also

You are a very sick man you know.

Take lots of pics to show all of us so we can drool over it too.

No one makes a readily-available supercharger kit for this platform. Build your own.

Originally posted by DarkOne
No one makes a readily-available supercharger kit for this platform. Build your own.

There was a Thomas Knight on Craigslist a while ago near me, never inquired about it though.

Thomas Knight has stopped making them btw.

Ehhh

Originally posted by teklein

Originally posted by DarkOne No one makes a readily-available supercharger kit for this platform. Build your own.

There was a Thomas Knight on Craigslist a while ago near me, never inquired about it though. Thomas Knight has stopped making them btw.

Is he related to this guy

Originally posted by DSM-ZERO
the symtech PnP if i can get my hands one one lol

yes, contact symtech about that, report back when he sells you one.

i have actually personally talked to thomas knight and he will make a M62 SC kit for the 420a. So there should be no problem with me getting a SC kit...

Yes as always there will be lots of pics

Originally posted by DSM-ZERO
i have actually personally talked to thomas knight and he will make a M62 SC kit for the 420a. So there should be no problem with me getting a SC kit...

untill you see the ending results !
my 420a manifold flange from Thomas Knight didn't even had the right exhaust ports pattern on it I had to pay twice as much for a machine shop job on it, and it didn't bolt properly without grinding extra material

Gino Dion several years ago on the Avenger/Sebring forum spent around $7k for a Thomas Knight 6g73 superchager kit and had to rebuilt 3/4 of the kit because of poor craftmanship from Knight and he used many used and old parts

as for you kit you will get a pulley which will use the alternator as a tensioner bearing, an adaptor to bolt a eaton 3.8L GM supercharger on the stock manifold and a nightmare to make it work and stay sealed

if you want that level of power get a T66 turbo a serious 2.4 built swap and a management system

Alain

Originally posted by alain95i4

Originally posted by DSM-ZERO i have actually personally talked to thomas knight and he will make a M62 SC kit for the 420a. So there should be no problem with me getting a SC kit...

untill you see the ending results ! my 420a manifold flange from Thomas Knight didn't even had the right exhaust ports pattern on it I had to pay twice as much for a machine shop job on it, and it didn't bolt properly without grinding extra material Gino Dion several years ago on the Avenger/Sebring forum spent around $7k for a Thomas Knight 6g73 superchager kit and had to rebuilt 3/4 of the kit because of poor craftmanship from Knight and he used many used and old parts as for you kit you will get a pulley which will use the alternator as a tensioner bearing, an adaptor to bolt a eaton 3.8L GM supercharger on the stock manifold and a nightmare to make it work and stay sealed if you want that level of power get a T66 turbo a serious 2.4 built swap and a management system Alain

Good info. And thats why I said above....

Ehhh

Having worked on and driven a twincharged DSM, I will tell you right now, up front, before you blow an incredible amount of time and money learning things the hard way, there is no kit out there and - even if there was - you wouldn't want it, because it will be designed to be a stand alone installation.

Seriously, do you want to have anything from an outfit known around the automotive community as selling half-assed crap as part of your one-off build? What's the point of that? Supercharging a 2GNT isn't hard, it's just that everyone wants the easy way out - off the shelf so they don't have to actually know what the fuck they're doing.

That's the worst kind of tuner, man. Nobody likes those choads who just spend their way to the top. It's why SRT4 owners with MOPAR STAGE WHATEVER and half the guys out there with 400hp Evos get no respect. They don't install their own parts. They don't tune their own cars. They're pretentious fuckwits who don't appreciate what it takes to truly build a performance vehicle. They don't know the half of it.

How are you going to plumb this system? Are you going to use dual stage inter/aftercooling? Water to air considerations? All these decisions factor into HOW the supercharger will be installed.

If you're going to really go through with this, you want to do it right, which means you don't buy some kit from some guy just because he's the only guy you can find out there who offers a supercharger kit for the platform.

I've seen Ray's twincharged Talon go through numerous designs and been there in the middle of the desert in the middle of the night when we're having to crazy clue things together so the car will make any boost at all. Now he's making more than 500lb-ft across the board and having to design his own clutch because he doesn't want to spend thousands on some twin disk that he'll just grease anyway.

You don't put a project of this nature in someone else's hands unless that person has a proven track record of specializing in those concepts. And, in case this still doesn't make sense, Thomas Knight does NOT have the track record to support his involvement - on any level - in your project.

Also, you want to do this for your daily?

Maybe once all the kinks are worked out, which will take VERY long. As

Driggs said, there is a ton of planning, fabrication, tuning, and keeping it reliable.

Bad idea all around for your DD.

Twincharging makes for a very high maintenance daily driver.

The ideal setup would be a twincharged race car (mainly for road racing) and a turbocharged daily. A supercharged daily would certainly be nice, especially for grunt off the line or merging into traffic, but the parasitic drag would negatively impact range, which is contrary to daily driver logic.

A daily driver should be simple, reliable, and highly efficient, while the track monster should throw caution to the wind and quantify fuel consumption by the pound!

Well thanks for all the input guys i was just reading last night on a Florida street racing form about how crappy his SC kits are. And today i read all of this lol..Soooo which brings me to my to believe that his kit is a bad idea.

I still would love to see a twincharged 2gnt though.

Do you guys think i should still go through with it??? or just leave my turbo kit on it and call it a day??

This is what he just told me

In a message dated 8/2/2009 9:28:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, loco4d4@yahoo.com writes:

evryone form the 420a community is telling me not to get one of your kits due to the poor machining of the adapter plates and used supercharger parts comming with the kit...Im not attacking you just asking. Im a stand up guy or like to think so but it seems that you have a bad name with the 420a community..again dont get mad im just asking? why there telling me to not do business with you

HMM--I SOLD THREE COMPLETE KITS OVER 5 YEARS, AND ABOUT FIFTY ADAPTER SETS. THE EATON GM M62 WERE HAND PORTED BY ME, REBUILT, AND ALL NEW BEARINGS USED. FINDING NEW GM M62 EATONS IS IMPOSSIBLE, AND THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT FIT. THE ADAPTER SETS WERE CNC CUT ON A WATERJET, AND WERE NEVER MACHINED AS THAT OPERATION WAS TO BE DONE BY THE BUYER (DRILLING, TAPPING, PORTING, ETC). I SOLD THE ADAPTER SETS FOR $750 WHICH CONSISTED OF FIVE 1/2" 6016 T6 AIRCRAFT ALUMINUM PLATES AND ONE 5/16" STEEL IDLER PULLEY PLATE. THERE WERE SEVERAL FORUM MEMBERS WHO DEMANDED I SELL THEM THE CNC CAD DRAWINGS FOR A FEW HUNDRED $$$ AND I TOLD THEM TO GO F*CK THEMSELVES, AS I SPENT OVER 100 HOURS DESIGNING THE KIT FOR MY OWN CAR (I HAD A '98 ECLIPSE). SOUNDS LIKE A BIT OF CHILDISH PAYBACK. ALSO, IF IS IS SO SIMPLE TO DO, WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE TO HAVE DONE ONE?

Well here's a idea for you to make a cool 2GNT... I'd really love to do it myself but I know I don't have the support or funding to do it but you might pull it off.

here's a vid to get you thinking:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1E03EF7549B98134&search_query=boost+logic+compund+turbo

It would be really cool to see a compound turbo 420a , and maybe this could even make more power than your current drag car setup....
Obviously after you have perfected the setup on a easy application.

Keep what you have and enjoy it.

I would never do business with someone who told somebody else in the past to go fuck themselves.

the perfect set up would be an electro magnetic roots S/C with a turbo, that would make it much more tunable and streetable.

VW did this with a golf a few years back. made ok power obviously they were being conservative. But figure you use a 60 trim hybrid and 12lbs occurs at 2800 RPM, then they were running the roots controlled by the PCM to spool say 8 lbs of S/C boost til 2800 then the computer would shut down the clutch to the S/C and the turbo would then do its thing.

if you could figure out how to get a reliable clutch system similar to that into the T/K set up then you could be golden.

That email conversation. Wow. Just wow. There was no reason for that whatsoever.

How many people do you know running a Hahn turbosystem? Would you believe the HRC banner ad on this site is 100% free to HRC in appreciation for all they've done for this community and platform over the years? It's true.

Now, how many people do you know running one of those Tornado intake swirly things? A JET chip/module on their 2GNT/DSM? A supercharger kit?

Groupthink can be good or bad, depending on how it's used.

In the case of every DSMer in the world wanting a GT42R so he can have a 10 second daily driver, it's bad. You can run low 11s on a $400 E316G, but they all think they have to have the biggest and most expensive items from the catalog. They don't want to put in the effort to practice their launch and get that 1/4 mile tamed. They want the car to do it all for them. No responsibility.

However, in our case here, we've got a market of somewhere between 10,000 and 14,000 2GNT owners in a community over ten years old, yet in the last five years, he's sold three kits and 50 adapter sets. Hmmm...

"If it's so easy, why isn't anyone else doing it?"
Ten years ago, these cars, even used, were priced out of the range of the irresponsible teenager. These cars were owned by adults who had discretionary income to spend on modifications, but there were limited choices available so they had to fabricate things themselves.

This is where your VFAQs for things like balance shaft removal or turbo wastegate porting came from. This is where people like Dave Buschur and John Shepherd got their start. Back when "Go fast with class" meant something.

Today, if you can find a super clean 2GNT, you can pick it up for under $5000. The less mint specimens can be had for scarcely more than a grand. When you reach that price point, the market shifts from well-heeled adults to addlepated high school kids who, more often than not, just want wheels and subs.

Those young bucks who have friends who know WTF they're doing under the hood will want to play too and will come online seeking information. Nothing wrong with that, but the community has gone from a spirit of attention to detail and going fast with class, to getting the answer to the question, which is more often than not, along the lines of how to get the most power, as CHEAP as possible and as EASY as possible.

It's not that supercharging a 2GNT is literally easy, like changing a radio out, but it's not rocket science either. The fabrication requirements are on par with a custom turbo manifold. There haven't been more people doing it because there hasn't been a demand for the product.

Why are more people going with the turbo system? Because it's ready to go, there's plenty of support for installation to tuning, to repair, a turbocharger is more efficient, which extends the range of the vehicle, and DSMs are known for being turbocharged beasties.

Why supercharge? To be different. I assume you've seen Ray's twincharged Talon on Youtube by now. Let me pose a question to you based on knowledge of his set up. It's something you'll want to figure out if you still go this route.

The logical place to mount the blower is atop the stock lower intake manifold. Now, since you're eliminating your plenum and relocating your throttle body, if you wanted to AFTERCOOL the charge from the blower, how do you plumb your charge from the blower, to the cooler, and back to the intake manifold? :wary

And now I've gone way too far into this.

I see an option here, based on: 1)You apparently have a lot of cash on hand that you are willing to spend on a 2gnt *applause*, and 2) you want something a little different, with 3) the end goal of high performance.

SO-

Why don't you be the first person on this board to buy the complete CF setup from squidskins? The reportedly 500-800 lbs of weight loss (per historical threads, though 500 already sounds extreme) would make a regular 2gnt a whole lot of fun, let alone a boosted one. With speedglass lexan replacements for front and rear windshields. I've been waiting for someone on the board to actually do this. I know Brian's been an advocate of the concept for a long time.

FORGET the twincharger setup. Absolutely pointless IMO. Seriously, FORGET it

Im full CF less the shell, I dont even know how that is possible to run a CF shell in our cars with out a tube chassis.

in any event, like i said every bolt on-able panel is CF on my car, I don't think I've lost 500-600lbs just in body parts, but it would be nice if I have.

as for lexan I have looked into getting all the windows replaced with lexan and the price is not cheap at all.

Originally posted by Black Cotton
as for lexan I have looked into getting all the windows replaced with lexan and the price is not cheap at all.

Not to mention it scratches super easy making its use on a street car a waste in most cases.

Speedglass is supposed to be scratch resistant like glass. It makes going lexan on a daily driver more practical (cost aside)

Originally posted by Black Cotton
Im full CF less the shell, I dont even know how that is possible to run a CF shell in our cars with out a tube chassis. in any event, like i said every bolt on-able panel is CF on my car, I don't think I've lost 500-600lbs just in body parts, but it would be nice if I have. as for lexan I have looked into getting all the windows replaced with lexan and the price is not cheap at all.

No offence, but the vast majority of carbon fiber bolt ons commonly found in the aftermarket are designed for looks moreso than actual weight reduction. As such, many weigh nearly as much as their stock counterparts.

Squidskins offered the following for the 2G in carbon fiber:
- hood
- front bumper (98 Talon only)
- front fenders
- door skins (interior and exterior)
- dash
- driver's seat
- hatch
- rear bumper cover

I've spoken with owner before. He said that the Archer car (ever see that black and yellow Talon with the Eagle logo on the side? That one) realized a greater than 500lb weight reduction with all parts installed.

For a consistent drag racer, 100lbs is a tenth in the quarter. So, for a consistent wheelman, 500lbs would mean half a second, no other mods included. Add more power and it's exponential.

Twincharging is cool when you need a super flat torque "curve" as you do in rally. Ray makes something like 500lb-ft from 2200-7000rpm. He liquifies ACT clutches regularly with that set up. Tip in more than 20% throttle at highway speeds in 5th gear and he's slipping the clutch, without even having his foot near the pedal!

well i know for a fact that weight a lot less then factory parts.

the doors weigh 13lbs each.

as for the rest, unless i go weighing each part, the only ones i can be a little skeptical of is the front and rear bumper skins, being that the factory units are not that heavy to begin with.

but fenders, trunk, doors, hood, for sure..

cowl is prolly the same, dash is much lighter mine is 4lbs stock is MUCH MUCH more then that, center console is prolly close to a wash also.

again i dont think i lost 500 but im sure i lost closer to 250-300.

if i count taking out the HVAC, blower box, all the insulation, carpet, all interior, A/C, P/S, 5mph bumper supports, about 60lbs in extra wiring, ect. I am positive i lost over 500lbs.

however gained weight back in the 12pt roll cage, added chassis bracing, ect.

the stuff i had made by no means is junk, but they are not dry carbon either.

Originally posted by Black Cotton
dash is much lighter mine is 4lbs stock is MUCH MUCH more then that,

thread hijack for worthy cause: High res pics of dash or die!!! I almost have a full CF interior with the exception of the dash. Where did you get this done, and price? My favorite shop for 2g CF parts (topshop) still only does CF wrap for a dash.

me wants 4 lbs dash :9

^ x2 I would like to see this full CF dash also, thats a high dollar mod

I already took out the ACm heater core, ALL of the factory wirring and fuse box, everything from behind the dash, CF hood and CF hatch, all sound damping material..
The only other thing i would really want to do is CF doors and maybe speed glass.

OK OK sooo if i sould just forget the whole twincharge idea now??? I already have a turbo kit for my daily driver..sooo ill just leave it then BUT I still want todo this very badly lol

I would place an aftercooler between the blower and adapter plate before it bolts to the lower intake manifold.

Im not gonna get into why there is no aftermarket support for our beloved 420a..

do the compound turbo!!! and CF parts!!! IMO

its not full CF is fiberglass with a gel coat. its a pretty "nice" piece, not show quality out of the box, but I'm not interested in a show interior.

pics up in the morning.

IMO i do not feel that CF fenders, front and rear bumper will make that much of a difference those pieces from the factory are already pretty light.

Originally posted by DSM-ZERO
IMO i do not feel that CF fenders, front and rear bumper will make that much of a difference those pieces from the factory are already pretty light.

not so much no. Doors, hood, hatch and roof could be imroved upon greatly

too bad the roof would be a serious PITA

High res pics of dash or die!!!

If you really want to make your mark, you will drop another turbocharged 420A into the trunk to make a twin engined, twin turbocharged, AWD beast. There was a Tiburon like that in SCC years ago. It was auto trans with no intercoolers, but I think you can top that.

Or, you could be more sensible and have someone build/adapt an AWD drivetrain for use with the 420A engine. Judging from your last build, the sky is the limit. That is something I have always wanted to see done. That would help put the 661 hp to the ground.

Corbin
'95 ESI-T

Now with more power and fewer leaks



Humble servant of the Wiki

"6016 T6 AIRCRAFT ALUMINUM "

yea 6016 huh? lol. Knight is a wanker.

edit: I kind of like the idea of a supercharger with a magnetic clutch on it like the AC system, on or off when you want

Originally posted by turbo8u
edit: I kind of like the idea of a supercharger with a magnetic clutch on it like the AC system, on or off when you want

Except that in the OFF mode it's a massive block to the intake tract. you'd need to work out a bypass system to move air around the supercharger.

pics of the dash....