Alright. I said in my introduction that i had a challenge. Its rather humorus but its all true. I work for a shop that prefers hondas and nissans and hates DSM's. My boss and i got a bet going over my car being as he doesn't like it. He's dogged me for a long time over my car and i'm slowly shoving it back up his ass. My ultimate smack down will be to win this challenge. So here it is.

Using nitrous my car has to make 200 hp exactly, no less, but can be more. On stock bottom end. The only limitation is i can't change the bottom end. I.e. pistons, rods, crank. I know the ring landings are the first thing to go and that the presumed HP limit for them is 200 hp. My engine is already in great shape. 180 compression. Good service record. All parts in top condition. There is no limit to what i can do to the rest of the engine but i'd like to do it with as little moddification as possible. The biggest obsticale is it must complete 10 dyno pulls in this manner with 10 min or so cooldowns between runs. I already have in my plan an MSD ignitio control to remove the top end ingition retarding, FIC controler (apexi probably), and the nitrous kit. I have unlimted dyno and tuning axcess as i can operate them myself.

Here's the real kicker. He's buying the nitrous kit (wet kit of various parts and components). If i win i keep it. If i lose, he keeps the kit and gets to hit my car with num-chucks (sp?) 10 times. I havn't said yes yet, but i want to know what my chances are.

What do you think? Any hope of winning?

I dont know where you got 200hp from?

Our stock bottom ends have produced 300 CHP on occasion with a turbo reliably. 275 daily without issue. Its all in the tuning. Nitrous is not much different from a Turbo with the exception that the air charge is smaller due to the 02 molcules that are released when heated. The Nitrogen actually cools the charge leavign you with an advange over a turbo setup. However running NO2 cost far more than a turbo in the short term (1 year). To get the same use out of a Nitrous setup, you would be filling a 10lb bottle every week.


Is it possible? Sure permitting you can tune as well as you talk. If the motor takes a shit, its not the motor, its you. I would be careful how large you boast your personal opinion of yourself here, there is a potential to look like an ass and you dont want that.

Personally, since it is a wet kit, I would install some sort of FCD or missing Link, depending on the year of your car, the ECU will not like seeing positive pressure in the intake.

Cold air intake which you already have, high flow exhaust. Install the Nitrous kit with a direct port not the cheap ass single nozzle setup from the asshats of ZEX.

Be very careful with your fuel pills, tune it for the rich side so the ECU is trying to compensate and add fuel. Watch you actual intake pressure and tune with your Spark Plugs. Foorget the little charts from Nitrous kits, they are only a guideline.

Walbro 190 or 255 fuel pump will help keep your fuel pressure up there during spray.

Thats all your going to need.

Terry

Originally posted by Warmage12
The only limitation is i can't change the bottom end. I.e. pistons, rods, crank.

MSnS with Crower 1's (while I would take Crower 2's because I can pull out some of the overlap and I'm liking the lift. It also is a bit more playful up top where you are going to get your power numbers), Cam gears for adjustabiltiy, direct port nitrous, at least 55mm TB, an exhaust port (and polish for both), remove the injector humps on the intake and an exhaust and put a Wally (190 or 255) in there.

That'll do you and it should keep your Nitrous needed down.

MB

i'd like to see this jesse, but these guys are correct. i hope that you're prepared for engine failure IF that were to occur...

Thanks for the quick reply. The info is very useful.

I do wanna say srry about coming across a cocky. I don't mean to be it just happens. I just didn't want you to have to go really thourough. This site is huge. Do you think there are write ups and how to's for all this stuff? Links to specific directions would be greatly appreciated.

I have only limited interaction with other DSMers of high quality. We're kinda dry out hear. :\ From what i had gathered previously our engine was limited to 200 whp by the weak ring landings. ??? I guess from what your saying its not true. If so what is our engine limited to?

My car is a 95 so it doesn't need a missing link. I do have plenty of tuning knowledge floating around my shop and i can always ask for help here.

From what i'm gathering in your suggestions, in addition to what i've already posted, a small porting job to intake and head, Bigger TB,cat-back, cams and cam gears. Why a direct port? I understand the differance but what's the main reason. Prevent a single cylinder from being surged. My buddy has a set of nitrous cams for sale. I'm not sure what kind. Do you recommend a nitrous cam. Or would that only be good for a high nitrous setup?

The car is just a toy right now, otherwise i would turbo it. Its a DD and i can't afford the gas and wear/tear to it. Our shop is a N20 authorized fill station so nitrous is at cost for me. :) A

I already have another engine. While i'm putting al this together i'm going to tear it down and fix it so i have a backup. I can change and engine in a day now i've done it so much. Thanks for the encouragment mikey

Any other suggestions? Good links to the suggested mods would me much appreciated. thank you for your time.

No... its 200whp for all motor...

Neons too. So far MB is at 203ish whp.

I guess I don't get the challenge. Do you have to hit a minimum HP on each pull? I say just go up there do 10, 1/2 throttle pulls and walk away with you Nitrous kit.

*edit*

nevermind.... I read it again.

Originally posted by teklein
No... its 200whp for all motor... Neons too. So far MB is at 203ish whp.

MB's also built

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC

Originally posted by teklein No... its 200whp for all motor... Neons too. So far MB is at 203ish whp.

MB's also built

Obviously. I never said he wasnt. Figured that was implied.

Originally posted by teklein

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC

Originally posted by teklein No... its 200whp for all motor... Neons too. So far MB is at 203ish whp.

MB's also built

Obviously. I never said he wasnt. Figured that was implied.

yeah but you're answering as to what the power limits have been that people have been able to reach N/A. The OP is more asking what power can the bottom end support with a power adder (turbo/nitrous - in his case, it's nitrous) Therefore, bring up Mark's 203whp with 12.5:1 compression and full boltons as well as MSnS is a moot point

I think it's doable, there are plenty of guys that have ran right around 200whp on simple turbo setups and stock bottom ends for plenty of miles, but as Terry said, it's in the tune.

I've been using the search to find all the links i need for the suggested stuff. I'm against using MSnS because my shop doesn't support it. Being as i work for the shop i'd prefer to show off a different platform using parts we already support. So i have a quick last couple of questions.

Wat FIC's work for our cars?

How good is MSD at controling our igntion? If you could provide a link or explination of its basic operation would be great. PS i read the MSD website stuff already

Also, what are acceptable tolerance levels for different engine areas. I.e. EGT, Intake temp, stuff like that i can use to monitor my engines internal happenings for malfunction.

umm, i guess that's it. Any other info would be great. I'm trailblazing a bit in our area for DSM's. Again its pretty much cause i work for the only good shop in our area. The more help and understanding you guys can give me the more i can pass down the line to the new DSMers in my area.

Yeah, MSnS is not for the feint of hart Jesse. I am in the process of removing the nitrous and the cams are Crane 12's. I'm still selling the nitrous but I am probably going to keep the cams right now because I have decided to rebuild with higher comp pistons so I don't have the cash to buy new cams too. I wouldn't do this bet with Chris Jesse, he is not even going to allow cool down time. He is just going to get up there a bang out 10 runs spraying. Message or call me for details on the nitrous. As far as MSD, IF you get the programable one you can tune ignition how ever you want, the FIC i'm not too sure on. When most people talk about FIC's they are refering to the new ones that replace the FMU's as a way to increase fuel in boost. I know AEM was still having problems with the 420a version of the FIC, I think it was the crank trigger that was causing problems but I am not too sure because I don't use those. MSnS all the way with the 420a man.

No, i got him to agree to set cool downs in between. I've found two things that should help with the temp problems big time. A thermal gasket from an SRT-4 re worked and the motul cool. Between that and the cold nitrous my engine temps should stay very nice. I'm also considering a better radiator. I'm working on learning to operate the dyno myself so i can tune the car without him. I probably won't take the bet but i'm still gona get 200 hp and shove it up his ass. Avery likes the idea and really doesn't care

I'd love to do megasquirt but i just don't know were to begin with one. You know i have no way to order stuff myself. I'd love to learn to use it. It would cut my expenses for this project in half. The MSD and FIC will cost me 600-700 were as a MSnS kit will cost me about half. You already have maps of some sort so i can get the car to start. Its just hard to work there and go against the grain, which i'm already doing.

Zac, i have two sets of cams remember. I'll buy urs at a lower price and give you some stock cams if you want?

damnit jess. spray it, blow it, learn from it. game over

Jesse, you spun a rod bearing in the other engine. You don't know for a fact that the other cams are even good. Your cylinder temps are what I am talking about jesse, not the engine coolant temp.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I'm against using MSnS because my shop doesn't support it.

Your shop should. It's the best bang for the buck out there for a huge range of platforms.

if you actually were a "trailblazer" and not some complete fucking dumbshit, it wouldn't matter what your shop "supported" because you'd be willing to learn what works instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. The only reason you want to use parts "your shop supports" is so you can run home to TDC when you're too fucking stupid to figure out how to tune anything on your own.

Originally posted by DarkOne

Originally posted by Warmage12 I'm against using MSnS because my shop doesn't support it.

Your shop should. It's the best bang for the buck out there for a huge range of platforms. if you actually were a "trailblazer" and not some complete fucking dumbshit, it wouldn't matter what your shop "supported" because you'd be willing to learn what works instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. The only reason you want to use parts "your shop supports" is so you can run home to TDC when you're too fucking stupid to figure out how to tune anything on your own.

Exactly D. You have no idea how right you are. Hes local.

There are a umpteen number of 4G63 cars in Spartanburg that are damn fast, and not to mention Zac and Mikey in Greenville with 2gnt's.

Jesse as the trailblazer? Hell no.

Jesse is making 117whp. Yet he swears his Eclipse is the tits. And btw, all he does at the shop is answer phones and mop.

Originally posted by teklein

Originally posted by DarkOne

Originally posted by Warmage12 I'm against using MSnS because my shop doesn't support it.

Your shop should. It's the best bang for the buck out there for a huge range of platforms. if you actually were a "trailblazer" and not some complete fucking dumbshit, it wouldn't matter what your shop "supported" because you'd be willing to learn what works instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. The only reason you want to use parts "your shop supports" is so you can run home to TDC when you're too fucking stupid to figure out how to tune anything on your own.

Exactly D. You have no idea how right you are. Hes local. There are a umpteen number of 4G63 cars in Spartanburg that are damn fast, and not to mention Zac and Mikey in Greenville with 2gnt's. Jesse as the trailblazer? Hell no. Jesse is making 117whp. Yet he swears his Eclipse is the tits. And btw, all he does at the shop is answer phones and mop.

Figures. 5 posts in and he's already out. Hasn't re-posted since the original post. That's the unfortunate reality of our cars being available to any off the street schmuck with a spare $1500 bucks laying around...

Originally posted by cs82685

Originally posted by teklein

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC

Originally posted by teklein No... its 200whp for all motor... Neons too. So far MB is at 203ish whp.

MB's also built

Obviously. I never said he wasnt. Figured that was implied.

yeah but you're answering as to what the power limits have been that people have been able to reach N/A. The OP is more asking what power can the bottom end support with a power adder (turbo/nitrous - in his case, it's nitrous) Therefore, bring up Mark's 203whp with 12.5:1 compression and full boltons as well as MSnS is a moot point I think it's doable, there are plenty of guys that have ran right around 200whp on simple turbo setups and stock bottom ends for plenty of miles, but as Terry said, it's in the tune.

From the way he worded this: The only limitation is i can't change the bottom end. I.e. pistons, rods, crank. I know the ring landings are the first thing to go and that the presumed HP limit for them is 200 hp.

The 200hp limit is what I was responding too... because that part would be true if it was NA.

And yes I realize hes talking about spraying, but that statement was the reason for my reply.

Thanks.

Well All the info above is correct!

Port Spray, porting , fuel, ignition, intake, a good HG MLS, and a really good exhaust (headers, and cat back)
And I know of a guy that hit his 420a with a 115 shot and didn't have a lot of supporting mods and ran pretty well only that he had a lot of tire spin. Don't know the HP he had but if he could do 115 shot with what he had I guess you can do more or the same with more power due to the other mods your going to do.

And the AEM F/IC is working just order the 1913 one and that's it, it's like 28 wires in the conection and your done I'm running it with 450cc a wally 255 and 1:1 press reg and just tunning the fuel made the car behave a lot different still working with the O2 and the retard but it's worth the money!

Originally posted by Cyexmaster
And the AEM F/IC is working just order the 1913 one and that's it, it's like 28 wires in the conection and your done I'm running it

What year is your ECU? The AEM F/IC has been throwing codes on all the 2g setups I've heard about, as soon as it starts to control injectors. If you've found a work-around, I'd love to hear it!

KILL IT WITH NUNCHUCKS!

Originally posted by hazardeclipse
KILL IT WITH NUNCHUCKS!

That would actually be the best case scenario for him. And the car.

Poor 2gnt.