hey whats up people, i am building my 420a top to buttom, i was speaking with people and they were bashing on me because im gonna build the 420a, then i said that i was gonna try to get 400-450 whp out of my engine, what i need to know if its going to be possible with my future mods: (general idea)

engine:

.020 over JE 8.8:1 low comp. pistons
eagle H beam forged rods
crane 16 cams
ss valves (+1 mm ovesized)
adjustable cam gears
lifters and adjuster
porting the head
port stock intake manifold or get a Venom intake?

turbo:

td06H 20g with T3 flange
tial 38mm external WG
HKS ssq BOV
3" down pipe
all oil lines
2.5" all around IC piping
Hahn IC, im not sure about which IC yet.

Fuel :

650 cc injectors
Walbro 255 fuel pump
SFMU
MSnS(do i really need the sfmu?)
Im not sure what to use to control ignition yet, will MSnS help me with that or will i have to get a MSD ignition controler


New Oil Pump
New Water Pump
MSD coil pack
60mm trottle body
MSD spark plug wires
I have to get better radiators, aluminum
MBC
Wideband

tranny

im planning on getting a 2002 dodge neon tranny, i have read that it performs somewhat better than our stock tranny due to taller gear ratios!


im planning on pushing around 22-30psi on high octane gas and when on the dyno or track!! when daily driving i will try and keep it around 10-12 psi.

The 420a is very capable of those numbers if everything is done right. Your mod list looks good, but you will be pushing the 20g to it's limits. If you run the MSnS, it will control the fuel and ignition. And no you don't need a SFMU, you will need a 1:1 FPR with the MSnS.

well with 30 psi the hole you put in the block should be about the size of your head. high 2s low 3s are a better shot 500hp will make one slow ass car. you will never be able to hook up the tires you are just gonna spin them. the amount of work would be huge and would not be a streetable daily driver. 400 was my goal now if i hit 300 ill be happy.

thanks, those are the answers i like to hear, i know i will be pushing not only the block but also the turbo, but i have to do this, i will not back up, and i will do everything i can to get those #, i know it is hard, but if i keep it up and keep my head steady i know i will make it!!

thanks you guys for your opinions, could you guys ask around and see what other people think, because i really want to get as much feedback as possible!!!

400whp her i come!!!!!!!!!!!!

dont worry dudes, i wont let you guys down!

hope you have a lot of cash or credit cards

i was once like you, thinking "im going to build my 420 into a monster, i dont care what anyone says." after i got almost 5 grand into it and had barely broken the 200 WHP mark i gave up and bought a 1g awd. now i have like 3 grand in this car and am already approaching the 300whp mark. im not saying it cant be done, its just a lot of work and i personally got burned out on it, mentally and finacially. sorry to rain on your parade but im just warning you.

now if you seriously have the cash and the time and the will power, i would also recommend something bigger that the 20g, maybe a gt3582r. also 660 injectors aint getting it done, your going to need something more along the line of 720's, or maybe even 880's. you might want to look into a stroker to spool the big turbo, or if you're just wanting HP #'s a long rod might be better because they rev higher. which may also be better for drag racing because it wont spool as fast so hopefully you'll actually go instead of spinning your tires. speaking of that, you're going to need some stronger axles. see what i mean about it getting really expensive? you said ported stock intake manifold or venom, i would def go with the venom. i read that it is one of the best flowing manifolds out right now. dont get the obx ebay one, that thing sucks.

Originally posted by dsmtuner
i was once like you, thinking "im going to build my 420 into a monster, i dont care what anyone says." after i got almost 5 grand into it and had barely broken the 200 WHP mark i gave up and bought a 1g awd. now i have like 3 grand in this car and am already approaching the 300whp mark.

You're kidding right? You can make 200whp probably on a stock internal engine running 6-8 psi. Did you put your money into aesethetics by any chance because I have no idea how you couldn't break the 200 whp mark.

Originally posted by dsmtuner
you might want to look into a stroker to spool the big turbo, or if you're just wanting HP #'s a long rod might be better because they rev higher.

You can also go with some more aggressive cams to spool bigger turbos.

Originally posted by dsmtuner
speaking of that, you're going to need some stronger axles. see what i mean about it getting really expensive?

I do believe Hahn was running stock axles for a long time making big power.

Originally posted by dsmtuner
you said ported stock intake manifold or venom, i would def go with the venom. i read that it is one of the best flowing manifolds out right now. dont get the obx ebay one, that thing sucks.

I have no experience with the Venom intake manifold (Mike has), but I have never seen actual data saying the Venom flows better than a stock ported manifold. Putting on a different intake manifold is a task in itself, most require modification to even bolt up to it. I will agree though that I have never heard a good thing about the OBX manifold though.

hey man, fuck the naysayers, they don't mean a thing, your mod list sounds pretty impressive, good luck with your goal the 20g is a great turbo, don't worry about trying to get a better flowing intake mani, the stock one is good when its ported out, Just take it to the dyno and surprise everyone!

i know it will be really hard and maybe anoying at times, but i want to prove people wrong around here (where i live)!! and that thing about the stroker engine, i just posted a topic with that question yesterday, i was at work and it came to my mind and then decided to ask!!

engine wise i know what to do because i have experience with engines, but the turbo part is that i still have to research some more, i know my basics and how much of the stuff works, its just a matter of time before i learn more and more!!

i know what you mean dude, but i really have my mind on it, and those have been my thoughts, but i really want to get this done and not let myself down or let you guys down, i want to prove that the 420a has potential!

Originally posted by barza21
i want to prove that the 420a has potential!

Don't we all.

There are a lot of cocky 4G63 owners in my area and that is why I want to keep my 420a to show them what it is capable of. Just need some money first haha. Good luck with your project.

Originally posted by dsmtuner i was once like you, thinking "im going to build my 420 into a monster, i dont care what anyone says." after i got almost 5 grand into it and had barely broken the 200 WHP mark i gave up and bought a 1g awd. now i have like 3 grand in this car and am already approaching the 300whp mark.

You're kidding right? You can make 200whp probably on a stock internal engine running 6-8 psi. Did you put your money into aesethetics by any chance because I have no idea how you couldn't break the 200 whp mark.

i did break the 200 whp mark on stock internals, and i didnt rice out my car. i bought the hrc stage I kit which at the time was around 3000 then i upgraded to stage II which was around 1000. right there is 4 grand, plus exhuast and injectors, etc. it wasn't the cheaapest way to go, if i were to do it again id just peice a kit together myself, but i did have almost 5 grand in the car and at 10 psi i dyno'd at 205 WHP & 225 WTQ.

and youre right, a ported stock intake manifold flows very well, but im still pretty sure the venom manifold outflows it, i know it's one of the highest flowing manifolds for 4g63's. besides if he's putting thousands of dollars into a project this big, why try to save a few dollars and porting a stock part?

im not trying discourage anyone, why do you think i still visit this board and try to help people out. i would love to see some 420's putting down serious numbers. i really do wish you good luck.

wow 5 grand in a motor and you didnt make 200whp...sounds like you have/had no idea what the fuck you were doing!

to the original poster, you can do it...just keep focused on it.

also, dicth the 20g and get a gt35 with a tial 40mm external wastegate man. trust me, you will like it ;)

i have been trying to make big power with the 420a motor for the passed 2 years and i think i finally found the answer to it for this year...hopefully in about 2-3 weeks :)

cool, i will take a look at that turbo, that a garret right?? i dont know much about garrets but i will try and learn, but other than the turbo all the other supporting modds are cool right??

and what type of flange does that turbo use, is it the same T3 flange? i will look it up, i am gonna have to get a star exaust manifold right, or is the hahn manifold still ok??

im sorry im asking to much, but i dont know much about those turbos, i will go look it up right now and try to find out info on exaust manifolds for that turbo!!

thanks you guys!

and i will stroke it out to a 2.2 just to help the turbo spool faster, i went into howel automotive and saw that the price for the 2.2L stroker pistons (8.6 comp) is the same as the 8.6 comp. for a regular 2.0L, so i decided to take my spare block to a machine shop and stroke it out!!

will the stock forged rods work with the the stroker pistons, and what about the crank and head?? everything else will be the same right??

thanks

the hahn turbo manifold is a t3 flange so its the same flange, you just need to make sure you have enough clearance since you wont be using the manifold its designed for. also in order to stroke a motor you need to get the stroker crank. the crank is what determines the stroke. the stroker pistons just have the wrist pin higher up so it wont hit the head.

and to the previous poster, i DID break 200 whp. last time i checked 205 is a higher number than 200. but i will admit i didnt know as much as i do now and if i did it again i could probally get more than that.

thanks that sound cool,

i went into google and in here, and typed gt35, and i got this link http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-006&Category_Code=GRT

but if im not mistaken this is a balbearing turbo right??? and if it is it has a pretty decent price! and this turbo is know for putting down big numbers and i like that, but what do i pick for the turbo when im gonna place the order??? they are giving me the option of .82, .63, 1.06 a/r, so wich one do i pick?? i read on dsmtuners that the .82ar would be great, but what about the other things, if im understanding this correctly i have to pick the one that says
T3 turbine inlet flange, 4 bolt gt 3.0" discharge external wastegate only, correct??

sorry for so many question, but its the first time i look at a turbo like this, and i really like how it sounds and its reviews, so depending on what you guys say, im pretty sure im gonna get it!!

thanks

p.s. im not gonna stroke it out anymore, i dont mind the lag, and my rev will become a little more limited right??

Thats a nice turbo, I had the same thing but I ended up selling it because the hott side was too large for my car. It was a .82 a/r. If I were you, I would stick with a .63 a/r and you will be plenty happy :)

so the .82 doesnt fit in our cars?? even with the smaler radiator fans? and how much is the .63 good for??? and they are ball bearing right?

the .63 i still good to 400-600 hp. and the gt series is available in both ball bearing and journal bearing setups. the gt3582r is ball bearing.
http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=19798&cat=1119&page=1
what did you mean it was too large, like it's physically too large or just too much turbo? my friend is running this setup and i dont think he had any fitment issues. i think he is just running an ebay turbo manifold.

Its not that it doesnt fit. Its just harder to spool.

but what exactly does the .63, or .82 mean???? and do all of them come with a 3" outlet?? i went to a store here in town and they can get me the gt35r for $1400, is it a good deal, or are they riping me off??

what is the difference between those two bearing turbos??

the .63 and .82 are *I think* the sizes of the turbine wheel. I'm also still learning about turbos as well, so make sure someone confirms that haha. I already have the Howell 2.2L stroker, P&P head, cams, etc. I'm thinking the GT30R .63 ball bearing turbo will be my choice... I'm hoping I can spool it pretty quick and have a wide power band.

Also, you asked about the Star verse Hahn manifolds. I thought hahn only worked with internally gated turbos, and the star/turbonetics/treadstone manifolds have an external wastegate flange. You'll probably want the external if you're going with the GT35R.

cool thanks for the replys, now one last question: i wants to extend my rev limit, what would i have to do that, i know that getting longer rods will help with more reving ability, but what type of engine management help me extend my rev limit?? reving for longer will help me get more out of the gt35r right?


thanks, and if the question is out of place, just telll me and i will post it somewhere else,

You will be able to spool a .63 GT35r with no problem.

You will also want the star or treadstone manifold to use an external wastegate....if you want a badass manifold, PM me.

And for a longer rev limit, get MSnS...plus with the kind of power you want to make, your going to want to use MSnS anyway.

Why does everyone talk about spooling like it's a problem, just throw a good 50-60 shot at it and drop in a 2k pill, it'll spool.

Originally posted by Keith2172
Why does everyone talk about spooling like it's a problem, just throw a good 50-60 shot at it and drop in a 2k pill, it'll spool.

Because thats a pussy way out of a turbo, and plus, spraying is for cheaters any way.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
Because thats a pussy way out of a turbo, and plus, spraying is for cheaters any way.

That's one of the most ig-nant things you have ever said. Well ok, maybe not (hinges) but whatever. How is using 1 method of forcing more power into the combustion chamber different than any other?


EDIT:
Didn't you used to run n2o anyways, lol.

Oscar,

Go to the Garrett website and read www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/tech_center.html. A lot of your questions can be answered there and you won't have to wonder if the information is reliable due to the source. They do a good job explaining turbo trims for you.

Before you get into your build list too deep, consider better defining your final goal for the car. Sure, what 2GNT owner wouldn't want to school a cocky 4G63 owner, but there is more to it that mere horsepower. It might have been Mr.DSMtuner who suggested that kind of output (400-500hp) in a FWD car is going to have you and Michael J. Fox cruising all over Spin City, but there are ways around it.

Just to show you how much work you've got cut out for yourself with your current goals, I can only think of one stock displacement, boosted 2GNT making 400hp at the wheels (EDIT: Although I do know of at least two well on their way to excess of 600whp who have the determination to see it through). There may be a couple 2.4L guys rolling around in that neck of the woods, but I've yet to see any dyno sheets proving as much. In any case, that kind of power is going to see you working on more than just the turbosystem and engine. You're going to need the expensive fuel injectors (ever price 1000cc injectors?), the expensive clutch, and the expensive just about everything else.

One thing's for sure, the minute you crack into the engine - 420A or 4G63 - all the "4G63 is cheaper" talk goes out the window. Granted, you can get to 400hp (and beyond if you know what you're doing) on a stock 4G63T bottom end, but the biggest benefit to the turbo cars is AWD. Don't let anyone with a GS-T get you down. Chances are, he just got raped from a dig. }(

Remember that working on your car is supposed to be fun and have fun doing it. Stage your project so that you see some results right from the start. This will keep you moving forward. Get your turbosystem installed, then pick up a MSnS and learn how to datalog and tune. While you're doing that, find a spare block and start building your real engine. If you've got the patience (or the time, Mr.I-Need-To-Fuck-With-My-MBC-Now), pick up a head and get it done too. When you've got the final engine ready to go, you will have spent a good amount of time learning the ropes and becoming skilled in the areas that will be critical for making serious power. The more you know about turbosystems and tuning, the less likely you are to scatter your $7,000 race engine all over the track.

Never give up. Never say die.

thank you, thank you, thank you!! your words will keep me going for sure!

and you read my mind, i planned on building an engine outside and then droping it in, i know i have a bunch of stuff to learn, but i am always open to opinions, and i will try not to let you people down!!!

i will be the #3 2gnt pushing more than 400whp! dont worry dudes, money wise i think i have a good job that will provide for that, but the only thing i need to work on right now is knowledge! i will keep on reading and learning and will try and learn from MSnS, i know itso gonna take a lot of patience and time, and effort, but im up for it! i decided to do this because one night a dude with a gst gave me a look like he was better than me, and stores that i have gone to tell me the 420a isnt worth sh*t! i hate when they put us down, dont worry i will do everything in my power to keep going!

Originally posted by djtrickee

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST Because thats a pussy way out of a turbo, and plus, spraying is for cheaters any way.

That's one of the most ig-nant things you have ever said. Well ok, maybe not (hinges) but whatever. How is using 1 method of forcing more power into the combustion chamber different than any other? EDIT: Didn't you used to run n2o anyways, lol.

Because that specific method is for cheaters. Plain and simple in my eyes. I have an opinion just like you and I stated it. Spraying is for cheaters.

And no, I never used n20. I had an intercooler sprayer that never got used.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
Because that specific method is for cheaters. Plain and simple in my eyes. I have an opinion just like you and I stated it. Spraying is for cheaters. And no, I never used n20. I had an intercooler sprayer that never got used.

So whats the difference between that and me using my MsnS launch control to build 12 psi at the line?

Am I cheating as well?

Originally posted by djtrickee

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST Because that specific method is for cheaters. Plain and simple in my eyes. I have an opinion just like you and I stated it. Spraying is for cheaters. And no, I never used n20. I had an intercooler sprayer that never got used.

So whats the difference between that and me using my MsnS launch control to build 12 psi at the line? Am I cheating as well?

No you are not.

Run along skippy.

Whether it's cheating or not, I'm still a big fan of taking whatever steps neccesary in pursuit of a goal. If the goal is to have a purpose built drag car that is designed to run at peak horsepower flat-out and reach that peak in as rapid a manner as possible, then I have no qualms with throwing a healthy dose of nitrous-oxide at the bottom end to spool the turbo up to it's maximium boost level rapidly. Then again, I have no qualms with a second stage of nitrous coupled with propane injection to be triggered at the top and a little bit of religion to hope it stays together (I'm religious when I need to be) either. I have much repect for the purists who do not believe in chemical power-adders, but if I'm going to go all out, that's what I'm doing.

just to let you know, way up in the thread some one gave you incorrect info and no one has corrected him yet. the turbine a/r is the housing size not the wheel size. thats why i asked if an .82 was physically too big to fit on the car earlier.

also unless you're getting a ton of custom made internal stuff, you pretty much need to choose long rod or stroker. a stroker long rod is pretty much contradictary in terms.

you said you know about engines so you may already know this but for every one else who is curious this is the difference: rod agularity creates torque, that is to say the more the angle that the rods pushes down on the crank the more torque it pushes down with. the problem with that is angularity adds stress to the rotating assembly so it not a good idea to rev them as high. a long rod setup makes the rods a little longer(were talking thousandth's of an inch) to take away some of the angularit. this will create less stress on the rotating assy so it can rev higher. the trade of is less torque.

on a side note HP = TQ X RPM / 5252. so hp is directly related to rpm, thats why if you rev high you can get a high hp number. so when building an engine you need to ask yourself, do i want to rev high and make a lot of top end hp, or create a lot of low end torque but have to shift 3000 rpms sooner than that honda beside me?

what does this mean for the track? ever whatch 2 drag cars run nearly identical time but one will be like 15-20 mph faster? the car with the higher trap speed has more hp and likewise the slower car has more torque.

in my opinion, for a FWD setup, higher revs/hp is the way too go. this way traction isnt as big of an issue since you're not making a crap load of power until the car is already in motion and youre higher up in the rpm band.

thanks for the space and to anyone who actually took the time to read this. and you dont even want me to get into the nitrous argument.

thanks dude, thank you and everybody that can help me with their knowledge!

then its done, i will have to sacrifice a little of torque to be able to rev higher and try and get more out of the turbo, i will get the long rods, these will work with my stock crank and low comp pistons right?? i dont have to modify my modlist due to the different rod size right?? but how would this affect my redline, would it extend by itself or do i have to mess with it with MSnS?? TUNNING is going to be a big issue for me in the future because it is the first car i build up, i just dont want to take it somewhere and have somebody do it for me, and by the end i dont know crap of what they did, what do you guys recomend, that you think will help me start learning on how to tune a car?

and to that dude that posted a couple of posts back, thanks for the page, that is really good info, im almost done reading it!

its my understanding that the howell automotive long rods kit uses the stock crank, but they have custom pistons made. what they did was move the piston pin higher up in the piston. so in essence they made the rod longer and the piston shorter to balance out at the same overall length so it wont hit the head.

about tuning, i never really worked with megasquirt but you might try downlading it now so that you can play around with the software and explore and learn about it before you jump right in. if you live near the philly/nj area, i have a very close friend that makes his living tuning cars. he really good and he will normally let you ride along and show you everyhing hes doing so you're not clueless to what he did.
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