I'm worried about the current generation of DSMers. I myself always research to death EVERYTHING before I ever do it to my car, but this guy proves that not everyone does that. This is an e-mail conversation from a potential trade I was going to make, but not anymore. Also, he sent me a pic of the engine bay and it was missing an air filter and it had a vented BOV. He also claims it has an EVO motor that was overnighted from Japan. His replies are in bold underlined.

Im a Florida dealer and we use a thing called the black book and i also use ebay. Just the moter itself is 2000 (ebay) and the car 2000 black book ,kellys blue book, or ebay check it out for yourself.

Oooooooh... you're a car *dealer*

Everything makes more sense now ;)

Well, now that I'm talking to a businessman, I can be more upfront about everything and not hurt anyone's feelings...

1.) In the pic of the engine bay, the BOV is vented to the atmosphere. This causes a rich condition in which the car will temporarily run pig rich between shifts, side effects including stalling and hesitating. This is a well documented problem and the only thing that fixes it is a $500 GM MAF translator or to re-recirculate the BOV which would require re-installation of the stock intake or a modification of the one you have pictured.

2.) There is no air filter present on the intake! I was taken a bit aback by this at first but I was considering doing an oil filter check (cutting the oil filter in half and seeing how much debris accumulated), checking the oil fill hole to note the color of the aluminum (indicating if there have been frequent oil changes or few) and also doing a compression check.

3.) The JDM engine swap is all fine and dandy, but it concerns me not how much it's worth. The car is supposed to come with an engine and this shouldn't add any value at all to the car itself! The JDM engine is simply a used 7-bolt motor imported from Japan which is nearly identical to it's US-installed counterpart, the only difference being a larger turbo and higher PSI level, allowing it to run at the "270HP" number you gave me earlier. The internals are identical. We both know that aftermarket modifications do NOT increase the value of a used car, *especially* at the dealer level. If anything, the 16G turbo may increase the price a *little* but not the engine.

Here is an article on the subject of JDM motors by Road Race Engineering, a leading DSM shop
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/4g63motorsearch.htm

4.) You claimed the engine was from an EVO, which is a common misconception about the JDM engines. It is not. There is no physical way you could put an Evolution III engine into a 1st generation DSM. I didn't argue this point earlier, because I figured you were a teenager that had blown an engine and gotten a shop to install a new one and had been told it was from an EVO.

Important excerpt from the aforementioned link: "EVO Motors: The valve covers of the EVO 1-3 motors will be a kind of titanium color. They are the same as a US 2G motor with nothing fancy. They have the smaller 2G style intake ports, a small runner intake manifold with a larger plenum and a larger throttle body than a 2G motor. Still they are hard to find. Many are from other 4G63 powered cars and can have small 13G sized turbos. They will not bolt into a 1G because there are no provisions for the front roll stopper motor mounts that bolt to the block. Everything in Japan from 94 and up has the front and rear roll stopper motor mounts on the transmission 2G Eclipse style. Many people are running around yapping about how they have an EVO motor in their car. If it bolts into a 1G, it isn't an EVO motor."

I believe you will make a BIG profit if you take my offer for $500 plus the trade. Dealer retail on a car like mine is way over $5,000 and you know as well as I do that you can't sell a 1st generation TSi AWD for more than $3,500 even at the dealer level.

Please re-consider my offer and get back to me. Thanks!

Andros

your wrong i am a teenage o im sorry a street smart teenage kid that sells and works on cars . first off all i dont really have time 4 this but ima just prove a point u said something bout the bov all it does is make the fuckin sound loader and lets out more air are u ass have u ever heard of a crushed bov or maybe a greddy bov...................?

2nd i dont have a filter on there because i dont need it i drive in clean places plus it makes it faster
3rd 1 gen come with 6 bolts 2nd gens come with 7 ass in japan they dont make eclipse they have evos which is the same engine but diff car . so what u do is u buy a evo engine and u do the swap like i did .easy fast fun bolts up

ask around amauterdont ever try to battle some1 when u dont kno shit. back it up next time would u want me 2 send u pics of the dsm's i have built???????????? videos????????????

Hey man calm down! I thought you were a DEALER so I was just getting down to BUSINESS. I'm really a nice guy :D

I was a teenager not too long ago, and I know a lot about these cars. WITHOUT trying to be snobby or anything, please let me explain a few things to you. I really do NOT mean this to sound stuck up or anything at all, I'm just trying to pass some DSM knowledge from myself to you!

The BOV is designed from the factory to be recirculated to the intake tract. The MAF reads the amount of air going in and makes calculations based on that reading and delivers the appropriate amount of fuel. When you take off the re-circulation hose, the MAF becomes confused because it is not receiving the amount of air that it is supposed to. In turn, the amount of fuel is increased dramatically causing a rich condition during shifts. You may or may not be able to notice this effect while you are driving, but it is indeed hurting performance, wasting gas, clogging valves and all sorts of other bad things. You can physically see this condition if you datalog the car.

You asked why they sell Greddy BOVs and such, well some turbo cars are not re-circulated from the factory and the BOV is vented to the atmosphere. In this case, a vented BOV such as a Greddy will be fine since you don't need to worry about the MAF not reading the correct amount of air. Also, for cars that have not been turbocharged from the factory and are later kitted for a turbo (such as the Hahn turbo kit for the 2nd Generation N/A DSMs) you can also use a vented BOV. Finally, if you install a GM MAF translator, it reads the air after the BOV and doesn't make the car run rich. Otherwise, the BOV must *always always* be recirculated.

As for the filter, I realize you may think it isn't needed because the air does seem to be clean here in Florida, but the truth is there are all sorts of hazards floating around in the air that are invisible to the naked eye. These substances -- dust, chemicals, road debri -- are just waiting to be sucked up and break a compressor wheel. In addition, even if you don't suck up anything large, there are ALWAYS fine dust particles floating around in the air. When this is sucked into the engine, it is almost like a very fine-grit sandpaper eating away at your rings and cylinder walls very slowly. The solution is to buy a free-flowing filter such as a K&N. There is little to no performance impact and will help your engine live a long and healthy life.

1st generation motors up until 1992 have a 6-bolt engine, this is true. After 1992, 7-bolt engines were installed in all DSMs. As you already know, the 1st generation cars were made up until 1995, so the 1993 and 1994 models both came with 7 bolt motors. Even so, only the 7 bolt motors in the 2nd generation DSMs suffer from crankwalk.

You said they don't have DSMs in Japan. I'm fully aware of this, but there are many other cars that use the 4G63 besides the Evo in Japan. The JDM 4G63 motors for DSMs are known as the "GVR-4" motors. They came in the Galant VR4s, just to name one car. If you go back to the link I provided for you earlier, it explains everything you need to know about the JDM engines and why it is a common misconception that a JDM motor is an EVO motor.

Take this information and do what you will with it, I'm just a fellow DSMer and I'm not trying to "battle" you or anything, but when you told me you were a DEALER I just figured you would be pure-business. Sorry if I offended you, man!

And that's it so far. I'm waiting for him to reply. I hope I got the explanation of the BOV recirculation correct... but even if I got it a lil wrong, I believe I made my point. Needless to say, I'm not buying this car anymore.

That guy is a fucking RETARD and I bet he wears a helmet.

That's all fine a dandy he didn't know what he was talking about, but to actually argue that he's right and call you an ass blows my mind. BLOWS..MY..MIND.

to quote: "kill me in the face"

i hate when kids think they know everything, when in fact they know jack, i would say dont waste any time with him, but its kind of funny to read his replies, lol

There were never 7 bolt motors in Japan other than in the 2nd gen DSMs that were imported. So there are two corrections for your side of the argument. (Yes, there were 1st and 2nd gen DSMs sold in both Japan and Europe).

As for the other guy, he needs to be shot.

Originally posted by Jeff_99gs
There were never 7 bolt motors in Japan other than in the 2nd gen DSMs that were imported.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood when RRE said, "EVO Motors: The valve covers of the EVO 1-3 motors will be a kind of titanium color. They are the same as a US 2G motor with nothing fancy. They have the smaller 2G style intake ports, a small runner intake manifold with a larger plenum and a larger throttle body than a 2G motor."

I figured if it was the same from a 2G it would also be a 7-bolt motor.

Also, I'm aware that there are a teeny weeny amount of DSMs in Japan and Europe, but weren't those imported like Skylines are imported in the US? And aren't they called something like GSR Evolutions or some shit in Japan, not Eclipse?

The Eclipses sold in Japan and Europe were still called Eclipses. The AWD one is an Eclipse GSR-4 instead of GSX. I have never seen AWD 2G Eclipses though outside of the US and Canada. They were always FWD with the 4G63 NT engine and they were called the Eclipse GT. (which is why it is called that in Gran Turismo).

I've never heard of a 7 bolt Evo engine, but I guess anything is possible. It can't be the exact same engine as the 2G DSM though since that engine was assembled (poorly) in the United States.

I remember reading a long time ago that 7 bolts were a US only engine. I guess that could have been wrong as well.

Could he be calling the JDM 4g63 6 bolt with 550Cc injectors the EVo engine.......perhaps he has the 6/7 bolt mixed up..maybe? not sticking up for him at all, some pwoplw are so full of shit it oozes from thier ears and they can tell because they are blind and have no sense of smell...lol

Many Chicago guys have no problem venting to atmosphere with stock MAF...i know Jeff hates to hear it but i have see and rid in a couple.....touche

Would be nice to find or put together i nice write-up of all the variations of 4g63 motor used in the US and oversees. I wonder if writing Mitsu......if the document dept would release that info, maybe with production numbers.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Many Chicago guys have no problem venting to atmosphere with stock MAF...i know Jeff hates to hear it but i have see and rid in a couple.

Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. It's one of those things that will get you disrespected by real DSMr's and I'd rather have the respect of guys like Jeff than the gay sound of a ricey BOV any day.

Why continue to argue? He just told you all the boneheaded stuff he's done with the car---no air filter, for example :thumbsdown

You're lucky, now you know this car has been rode hard and put up wet, and its not worth your time...

I just can't believe he's not running a filter. Idiotic.