tell me how it makes you stop faster. it doesnt matter; there is a point where your tires wont grip if you slow down to quickly. i dont care if you have a $3000 barking system or the stock one stoping faster is more about weight distribution and tires on a car than it is about pads and rotors and calipers.

your wheels will lock up at the same speed, you will skidd the same distance. if your driving an abs car even then the brakes can only act so fast that the wheels dont slip on the asphalt so your still not gonna slow down any faster.

rotors, sure if your gonna be roadracing and all that and brake alot cooling is important


(wow i have never made a cockier post in my life)

I have 2 points why bigger rotors/calipers are better, even if we come to the conclusion that they don't decrease stopping distance.

~ With bigger brakes you don't have to put as much pressure on them to get the same results.

~Bigger brakes on a non-abs car should make the rotors last longer.


I still think that they would have to decrease stopping distance because with bigger rotors you need less pressure which will make the time it takes to get to a ceartin point shorter (even if its only by .001) and with a bigger surface area if one were to do it smart (not just mash the brakes causing them to lock up) would stop faster than a car with smaller rotors.

But really, I think this thread is useless without test results.

It is a fact of physics...larger area has more clamping force with the same pressure on the pedal. It means that the experienced driver will not have to mash the pedal to slow his rocket from 100+ mph. It has the added benefit of cooler surfaces due to less brake applied time. It also can indeed lock them up quicker. (see above, EXPERIENCED Driver) An ABS System pulses somewhere about 10-15 times per second. Even in some of the best systems, momentary (reaad that as fraction of a second) brake lock is common. For the average driver in a slightly modified car they are not totally necessary. It is almost more for asthetics. Large open wheel, Tiny rotors and calipers... I will agree with the tires greatly affecting braking performance. Redneck slicks (Lots here in VA) on dry pavement will stop faster due to more contact friction. Doesn't work that way in wet conditions. I guess what I am trying to say is that a larger brake system is not a waste. Done properly, it can be a valuable upgrade to any vehicle. Done wrong and you will be all over the road, in or even under somones trunk.

:cheers

less fade.

Yeah, uhm, kid....your post may be cocky but it's also illogical and uneducated. If they didn't do shit then all manufacturers would put the same brakes in all cars :rolleyes


Fact of the matter is if you upgrade your brakes you WILL get better performance, and if you get tires with more grip you will get even more performance.

Hell I saw on HorsePowerTV a couple of weeks ago where they upgraded the brakes on a mustange and got like 30 less feet in stopping distance with NO upgrade in tires or wheels.

remeber tho on a mustang it has traction control and has abs. upgrading brakes pads and calipers really wont change your stopping distance. there is only so hard the calipers can push on the rotors and the pads before they lock. i suppose with a bigger caliper and a wider pad and larger rotors with an abs system you could see some benefit

Larger rotors = more leverage = more stoping power. Good rotors will get rid of heat quicker, the cooler they are the better the friction material will work. It's simple really...

Less Fade.

Less Fade.

Less Fade.

Easier to control.

Originally posted by chrysler kid
remeber tho on a mustang it has traction control and has abs. upgrading brakes pads and calipers really wont change your stopping distance. there is only so hard the calipers can push on the rotors and the pads before they lock. i suppose with a bigger caliper and a wider pad and larger rotors with an abs system you could see some benefit

Let me try this again. Traction control on Fords and many other cars is in a sense ABS in reverse. Traction control isolates the drive wheel brakes from the non-drive and applies the brakes to prevent wheel slippage or traction loss. ABS uses solenoids to control the fluid pressure to prevent rapid loss of motion of the wheel. In other words it allows the wheels to keep turning without completely stopping while still slowing down. It does this by pulsing the pressure the driver is applyiing on the pedal through a dump valve, accumulator and numerous other components. If the brakes completely lock without letting go, there is a problem with the ABS system and the ABS light illuminates. Same principle for traction control. If the system is working properly, the brakes should never lock. With or without an ABS system, larger rotors, and pads with matching calipers WILL provide better stopping for ANY vehicle it is installed on. Another thing that benefits braking is the driver learning what his vehicle is and is not capable of as well as driving within those limits. Go outside them and I don't care what you are driving, you will cease to have that car and quite possibly your life or someone elses.
Class dismissed...

OK kid... I have to say a few things.
Yes I am selling the GSX brake kit but I just want to state some facts and experiences I had ok.

1) The fact is, Physics said it all, if the surface area is larger, the more grip it will get. Yes you are right, if the wheel locks up, the car will skid. But if you say that, then WHY NOT all brakes just use a nail as the braking system? same thing right? why use a pad? (why not make the pad as small as a quarter?) duh...common sense coz the power of the brake will decrease as the surface area decreases.

2) Now my own experiences, when I first got my turbo installed. I did a run at the back of my college. a straight road with a STOP sign at the end then 200ft to another stop light. I accelerate and goes to 100+MPH, and I am about close to the stop sign and I try to stop, and after 2 second I FORCE MY WHOLE BODY on the brake, and the car still going (without skid) then I have to ran the stop sign while at 40MPH then stop at the red light. I got off and my brake is on smoke and the rotors is kinda growing red.. lol and my rotors are FUCKED!!! Now after 2 weeks I upgraded my brake to the GSX dual piston the brake pad and rotors are much biger. Now I tried the same thing, and I got to 100+MPH and I start braking before the stop sign... DAMN it's so easy... without much effort, my car stopped about 15 ft after the stop sign. I do mean died stop... and I got off the car...the brake has no smoke or anything.... and of course, the rotors I am still using now after 4 months.. So NOW PLEASE TELL ME WHY if a bigger brake system won't WORK???? TELL ME PLEASE!

Thank you. that's all I have to say!
Gil

P.S. I really think this post is kinda pointless.

you are right CK, you have outsmarted all the performance car manufacturers' engineers including Porsche. They should hire you as a consultant.:rolleyes

Originally posted by bullox
you are right CK, you have outsmarted all the performance car manufacturers' engineers including Porsche. They should hire you as a consultant.:rolleyes

Originally posted by gilee_8
Now my own experiences, when I first got my turbo installed. I did a run at the back of my college. a straight road with a STOP sign at the end then 200ft to another stop light. I accelerate and goes to 100+MPH, and I am about close to the stop sign and I try to stop, and after 2 second I FORCE MY WHOLE BODY on the brake, and the car still going (without skid) then I have to ran the stop sign while at 40MPH then stop at the red light. I got off and my brake is on smoke and the rotors is kinda growing red.. lol and my rotors are FUCKED!!!

:wary :twitch :wary :twitch :wary :twitch

plz dont "test" my rotors before you send them to me... LOL

Originally posted by chrysler kid
tell me how it makes you stop faster. it doesnt matter; there is a point where your tires wont grip if you slow down to quickly. i dont care if you have a $3000 barking system or the stock one stoping faster is more about weight distribution and tires on a car than it is about pads and rotors and calipers. your wheels will lock up at the same speed, you will skidd the same distance. if your driving an abs car even then the brakes can only act so fast that the wheels dont slip on the asphalt so your still not gonna slow down any faster. rotors, sure if your gonna be roadracing and all that and brake alot cooling is important (wow i have never made a cockier post in my life)

Wow, what a half truth about braking systems. You're correct in that a dead stop test, ie 60-0 or 70-0, is really testing the tire's grip on the pavement (there will be some improvment in stopping distance but marginal). See now the thing you fail to mention is that an increase in braking power, even though it doesn't change the stopping distance a drastic amount, has many positive qualities that *should* be why people upgrade to them. Braking systems will show their greatest advantages when braking from higher speeds, or when tasked with repeated heavy braking. The increased braking torque provides for maximum deceleration at speed, and the ability to absorb and quickly dissipate the intense heat generated during repeated braking insures that the braking system will perform at the same high level each time.

Now everyone has gone into the brake fade, heat blah blah but it boils down to this. Brakes do 1 thing ... convert kenetic energy to thermal energy. The faster you convert the enegery the faster you will SLOW down. Yeah I know you will have left over heat and that will affect it to but I'm taking that into account in this situation.

God, I can't believe I sort of agreed with CK :order. Though you make it seem like a upgraded braking system is worthless which you are SO FREAKING WRONG about. :owned

PS. To everyone that thinks I am mistaken in my conclusion please contact Brembo Tech Support and ask them why they do not publish stopping distance numbers for their brake kits. :owned

Originally posted by Avenger

Originally posted by chrysler kid tell me how it makes you stop faster. it doesnt matter; there is a point where your tires wont grip if you slow down to quickly. i dont care if you have a $3000 barking system or the stock one stoping faster is more about weight distribution and tires on a car than it is about pads and rotors and calipers. your wheels will lock up at the same speed, you will skidd the same distance. if your driving an abs car even then the brakes can only act so fast that the wheels dont slip on the asphalt so your still not gonna slow down any faster. rotors, sure if your gonna be roadracing and all that and brake alot cooling is important (wow i have never made a cockier post in my life)

Wow, what a half truth about braking systems. You're correct in that a dead stop test, ie 60-0 or 70-0, is really testing the tire's grip on the pavement (there will be some improvment in stopping distance but marginal). See now the thing you fail to mention is that an increase in braking power, even though it doesn't change the stopping distance a drastic amount, has many positive qualities that *should* be why people upgrade to them. Braking systems will show their greatest advantages when braking from higher speeds, or when tasked with repeated heavy braking. The increased braking torque provides for maximum deceleration at speed, and the ability to absorb and quickly dissipate the intense heat generated during repeated braking insures that the braking system will perform at the same high level each time. Now everyone has gone into the brake fade, heat blah blah but it boils down to this. Brakes do 1 thing ... convert kenetic energy to thermal energy. The faster you convert the enegery the faster you will SLOW down. Yeah I know you will have left over heat and that will affect it to but I'm taking that into account in this situation. God, I can't believe I sort of agreed with CK :order. Though you make it seem like a upgraded braking system is worthless which you are SO FREAKING WRONG about. :owned PS. To everyone that thinks I am mistaken in my conclusion please contact Brembo Tech Support and ask them why they do not publish stopping distance numbers for their brake kits. :owned

That is a more technical version of what I told CK last night. They probably don't help to stop the car in a shorter distance, but are better than stock brakes in every other way.

And so all of you aren't hating on CK so much, we were talking and he understood the other good qualites about braking and this post was supposed to be just about braking distances.

Originally posted by Nackers
hating on CK so much

Sometimes it's just funny. :P

Good info Thura.

Wasn't trying to hate! Really! Just trying to help hiim understand why bigger is sometimes better and how the system works. It seemed to me through his post that he waasn't too sure. I would rather enlighten someone than just call them ignorant. Not nice to do that and totally counterproductive to what I thought this forum was for.

bigger brakes are really only great for someone who wants their street car to FEEL better, or for those of us who actually race the cars. believe me, on hoosiers or even victoracers stock brakes on wannabe cars like base model eclipses (no offense, but most have 9 inch front discs and tiny rear drums) have a HARD time keeping up with the tires. and even if they can lock them, theres the problem of heat buildup. heat eventually leads to fade, and the harder your brakes have to work, the more heat they create. too much heat can move your pad out of its operating temp range or transfer too much heat into the fluid and boil it. either way you're off in a ditch somewhere.

so basically what you say is right for the guy who just drives on the street and doesnt have SUPER sticky tires or isnt on the brakes ALL the time because they are ALWAYS going too fast :P

but even for me on the street it makes a nice difference. i have 11" vented disc brakes front and rear on the dynasty compared to my Avenger which has the stock tiny brakes in the front(sam as all eclipses short of GSX iirc) and the rear discs and i dont have to push nearly as hard on the dynastys brakes to slow down the same amount, and that just makes me more comfortable. plus itll look good under bigger wheels :)

1993 Dodge Dynasty LE 3.3 Auto, 95k, Stock.
16.2@84mph :D

Alright, big brakes will do the following...

Look cool

Improve brake feel

Resist fade due to repeated stops

Stop the wheels faster when above the lockup threshold. It is impossible to lock up the brakes at 100 MPH, and probably even 60MPH. Upgraded brakes might not help with stopping from 20MPH or so, but the difference between say, 60MPH and 20MPH will be staggering.

-=B-=

Originally posted by Vigo
bigger brakes are really only great for someone who wants their street car to FEEL better, or for those of us who actually race the cars. believe me, on hoosiers or even victoracers stock brakes on wannabe cars like base model eclipses (no offense, but most have 9 inch front discs and tiny rear drums) have a HARD time keeping up with the tires. and even if they can lock them, theres the problem of heat buildup. heat eventually leads to fade, and the harder your brakes have to work, the more heat they create. too much heat can move your pad out of its operating temp range or transfer too much heat into the fluid and boil it. either way you're off in a ditch somewhere. so basically what you say is right for the guy who just drives on the street and doesnt have SUPER sticky tires or isnt on the brakes ALL the time because they are ALWAYS going too fast :P but even for me on the street it makes a nice difference. i have 11" vented disc brakes front and rear on the dynasty compared to my Avenger which has the stock tiny brakes in the front(sam as all eclipses short of GSX iirc) and the rear discs and i dont have to push nearly as hard on the dynastys brakes to slow down the same amount, and that just makes me more comfortable. plus itll look good under bigger wheels :) 1993 Dodge Dynasty LE 3.3 Auto, 95k, Stock. 16.2@84mph :D

...um...bullshit, the stock '97 BASE TALON brakes SUCK ASS. You couldn't ever just resurface the rotors, they always had to be replaced, Fade was ass and felt like sponges after 2 HARD brakes, it NEVER happened in my civic with Hawk pads and powerslot rotors, so the upgrade was logical,

BTW CK FADE is a HUGE part of braking, its the ability to brake hard repeatedly. If I wanted, I could warp the stock rotors after break in ithout any trouble, and it's something that shouldn't be so easy to do

holy shit, lol.....

bigger brakes = less heat = less fade = better braking

besides, bigger rotors + more calipers = more surface area = less heat and better braking

so WTF are you talking about...smells like n00b up in hurr imo :shrug
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

Stock rs brakes do infact suck i hate them, they are the weakest point of my car.

Anyone want to buy a set of AEM bigbrakes? Now I don't want them anymore. :cry

CK made me realize how pointless they are... since I'm using Sears 100,000 mile tires that couldn't grip if you superglued them to the road... obviously my brakes aren't doing me much good.


PS. If anyone can 120mph-0 a set of Z-rated tires twice in a row without melting the stock brakes, I will personally bake you a cookie. (I'll even bake it right on your rotor if you bring it by within the 30 minutes or so it takes to turn back into a solid.)

Regarding your statement about the brakes locking up at the same time.. while that's untrue, it also goes to prove why stickier tires offer better braking on top of traction and better turning.

I think everyone else pretty much covered why bigger brakes are better so i'll just leave it to them. :p

Um,
if you get in my car and step on my brakes, you will not think brake upgrades are pointless.

funny stuff. i might as well open my door and use my feet to stop the car.. haha... thats how i relate to this post.. haha
Michael
99gs HRC Stage 4000+ 8-Injector Setup
2004 Honda Accord V6 (240 hp)
Car info & pictures at http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/520269

Originally posted by jamesman
Um, if you get in my car and step on my brakes, you will not think brake upgrades are pointless.

HE'S NOT LYING! OMFG! :eek

Step on them hard enough and your ass will be on the pavement in FRONT of the car. :bowdown

Originally posted by chrysler kid
tell me how it makes you stop faster. it doesnt matter;

let me take you for a drive, don't wear a seat belt, let me mash the brakes, when i pick you up off the highway, and you pay to replace my windshield, we will talk again.

or let me race you side by side going 140+, i will race you right up to a light turning red... then i will brake and wait for the light and the cross traffic.. and watch you brake fade right through the intersection :P bam!

Originally posted by Super20G
or let me race you side by side going 140+, i will race you right up to a light turning red... then i will brake and wait for the light and the cross traffic.. and watch you brake fade right through the intersection :P bam!

lol damn brad you just wished CK harm twice in two posts, how nice of you :+



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

Originally posted by turbo8u
lol damn brad you just wished CK harm twice in two posts, how nice of you :+

LMAO, it was funny when I re-read the thread.. hehe... it was a joke ck, which I am sure you already know.

But big brake upgrades on cars is just about the best money you can spend on a car... expecially when you are upping the power of the engine... A fast ass car isn't anything without some massive clamping power to save your ass when you forget to respect the powah ;-) .

Originally posted by Super20G
A fast ass car isn't anything without some massive clamping power to save your ass when you forget to respect the powah ;-) .

words of wisdom right there kids :thumbsup



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

I got bigger brakes to prevent brake fade, the stock DSM brakes are fine with say upgraded pads. But when you start getting hardcore like autox and mountain racing then you get massive fade lemme see if I can get a picture of my DPCs after a run on HWY9 its nice to know my brakes handled that kind of abuse and didn't explode or fade.






dpcs are nice they have a lotta racing potential, I might need to upgrade pads if I get any better though hehe.

Hehe... good to see you again, Merlin. Those stock DPCs are beefy. The piston size is well matched for the GSX master cylinder, and they will NEVER flex. I mean, come on. Seriously. Look at them. I think that the fabric of space-time would flex around these calipers before they do!

-=B-=

ok i don't think you can say brakes upgrades are pointless but i'm willing to bet most people don't have a very good understanding of what you're trying to accomplish with brake upgrades.

for the most part brake upgrades won't decrease your stopping distance unless you cannot lock your wheels with your stock brakes.

the primary advantage of brake upgrades is their increased thermal capacity. aftermarket brakes will not fade as easily.

the biggest misconception people have is regarding pedal response. being able to lock your brakes by simply tappping your pedal is NOT a good thing. yes it 'feels' better b/c it feels like it grabs more. this's the same misconception people had with pedal response and an oversized TB.

additionally most aftermarket braking systems do not maintain the stock braking bias. yes you can lock up the front very easily. however b/c the rear brakes have not been brought close to their locking point you lose much of your overall braking capacity. many aftermarket kits will in fact INCREASE stopping distance b/c of this.

but people like it b/c it feels 'grabbier'

there's a lot more to good brakes than big calipers and rotors

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakebiasandperformance.htm

so no - brake upgrades are not pointless, but a lot of people don't really understand what a good aftermarket braking system should be.

*edit*
oh yea if your aftermarket system doesn't maintain the stock braking bias your ABS will be quite confused and not help much at all in an emergency...

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/abs_bigbrake_122701.htm

What alot of people are forgetting is that alot of us are now using wider stickier tires. This increases the static friction coefficient and therefore makes the car stop faster, if you can come near the static friction limit of the tires with the brakes. The stock brakes had a very hard time trying to stop my wheels and tires. I could literally MASH the brake pedal and the tires would not lock (I don't have ABS). The stock brakes were designed with the stock tires in mind. After my new brakes I can lock the brakes but only at the very last bit of pedal stroke. This for me is ideal. But you have to realize that upgraded brakes WILL stop you faster if you have wheel and tire upgrades that will allow you to utilize the brakes better. But as others said the main benefits are the increased thermal capacity and hence the more consistant braking and lack of fade.

lates
james

Originally posted by jamesman
This increases the static friction coefficient and therefore makes the car stop faster, if you can come near the static friction limit of the tires with the brakes.

KINETIC friction... :P
not that anyone cares i'm just being anal

STATIC friction only comes into play when you're trying to push the car from a stand still with the brakes on. that is hard to do. mostly because cars are heavy so the normal force is large.