Ok guys, I am seriously considering an AWD conversion. The question is, has anyone done it, or know anyone that has done it? I have talked to a couple people and some say it is possible using some van drive trane that is based on the 420A block. I do not know which one. I am wondering if anyone else has looked into this or gathered any info on it.

Thanks!

as cool as the thought sounds its just prohibitively complicated and expensive. the general idea on this board has been it would just be cheaper to buy a whole gsx, then convert your 420a into AWD. that would be some serious custom work IMHO.

If anybody ever did this he'd be my hero tho'

I thought roadraceengineering or someone like that can do it for you and has already and the cost wasnt that bad from what I remember

i'm pretty sure the tranny is from the 4wd caravan. the main thing i guess would be the driveshaft. and the relocation of everything else that gets in the way.
-Josh


.
15.882@86.27

AEM Cai
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yeah, it's form the AWD caravan. someone told me once that it would work, but you'd have to convert to an automatic because there are no 5 speed AWD caravan transmissions out there. if it were up to me, i'd do almost ANYTHING not to be automatic. can't stand it (no offence automatic guys)

None taken;)

roadrace did do a awd conversion, but it was on a turbo spyder. the way they were able to do this is that they both use the same engine therefore the awd tranny would bolt up to it. would be a lot harder with a nt, dont' know if it would be worth it to switch if you had to go auto, maybe just go rwd, like the ford rear end i believe it was. not sure on the cost of either though

Hmm... AWD Auto, VS. FWD Standard? I would take the AWD Auto. I mean come on, its AWD. No spinning the tires, launching would be insane. I am considering this. I think it would be sweet to have an AWD Turbo RS. :)

what about the tiburon that was in the first sport compact car ultimate car challange that had and engine for the front wheels and an engine in the trunk for the rear wheels

dump another 420a turbo in the back with auto. WORD!!!!! I'd love to do that. Auto awd is good with power. If a car doesn't have much power, it won't really launch awd well from what I read in scc b4. It said that any car as to create a little spin to really get going good. Auto with a stall converter would probably do the trick tho if you're turbo'd. I would look into it man. Check and see how everything looks and see if you think it'll fit nicely. You have enough power to push awd imo.

as one of the few others that have contiplated this AWD idea.. i have a few insights provided to me from another that has thought of doing it also..

basically we can or should easily be able to use/swap the rear suspension/axles/transfer case and such from a 2g gsx/tsi-awd.. from there we look for a tranny.. and here are a few.. possibly the caravan awd.. another is the new liberty 2.4liter engine version, and also.. the evo. basically we're looking for a tranny that is located on the same side engine bay as ours does currently, and one that drives an awd/rwd platform..

from there we will have to find a front transfer case and possibly make a custom drive shaft to the rear or may get lucky with the use of the dsm awd driveshaft, but a must will be at least front custom axles. then you will have to rig up all the proper sensors, cables, and such, and then we will have awd 420a's

now one thing that has been brought to my attention is that of clearance for the driveshaft, but i believe most of that can be accomplished with using of gsx/tsi-awd parts.. and we may have to cut up some stuff if needs be, such as near the trunk for space for the transfercase under the crossmember (the crossmember is higher on the awd dsm and they dont have as deep of a trunk as we do.

and dont forget you will have to probably redo the exhaust piping from at least downpipe back, might even get lucky and use premade piping made for the gsx/tsi-awd.

just get ready for some spending of some mad cash and down time!

Oh, don't forget you will need to convert to an AWD gas tank.

Forget the AWD I'd go for REAR WHEEL DRIVE! Hell I'm auto and wouldn't mind swapping in a new trans but I don't like the idea of swapping the gas tank.

Hey if I run into a huge bundle of cash and I've got nothin left to do with it. I'll go RWD :thumbsup

oh yeah.. how could i have forgotten the gas tank.. :-)

the GS spyders can use the outlander AWD.

imo having an auto tranny cancels out the nicest thing about being awd and turbo...being able to launch like a rocket. you're not gonna get anywhere near as good a launch w/ auto

Forget swapping out the gas tank... This just gives you a good excuse to use a fuel cell.

i love it when people dis autos its funny a built autoo will lay the true smack down on any weka manual tranny ...

how many true draggers with alot of power run autos not many.. forward motion has 750 in their neon witha auto tranny same tranny ill get someday its a auto witha manual gear set basically a manual tranny with no clutch (in other words u have to shift 1-2-3) but no use of clutch and it shift so much faster and is bullet proof bada bing bada boom best of both worlds... cost is 1400$ for tranny and 900$ for the torque converter (standard fwd dsm/neon tranny)

eh, i dunno. i don't track my car very often, and having a 5 speed just increaces the "fun" factor of driving the car. in the end, isn't that why we're all here? to tune cars for fun? to each his own: "gas and go" of an automatic is kinda boring, even if automatics keep boost between shifts.

just a thought.

anyways, i'm done.

>i love it when people dis autos its funny a built autoo will
>lay the true smack down on any weka manual tranny ...
>
>how many true draggers with alot of power run autos not
>many.. forward motion has 750 in their neon witha auto
>tranny same tranny ill get someday its a auto witha manual
>gear set basically a manual tranny with no clutch (in other
>words u have to shift 1-2-3) but no use of clutch and it
>shift so much faster and is bullet proof bada bing bada boom
>best of both worlds... cost is 1400$ for tranny and 900$ for
>the torque converter (standard fwd dsm/neon tranny)

No one is talking about "true draggers". They're talking about likely daily driven cars that see a little time at the track every now and then. Personally, I wouldn't sacrifice being able to shift through the gears myself for a few tenths in the 1/4 mile. It is simply more enjoyable to drive a stick than an automatic. Why give up that enjoyment just for literally a few seconds out of the year at the track?

Chris

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>Forget swapping out the gas tank... This just gives you a
>good excuse to use a fuel cell.

Fo Sho :thumbsup

Wasn't the shelby CSX AWD?

EDFDC OWNZ

Will Werk for Mods

1995 RS

Current Mods:
Cracked Front Bumper
K&N Intake
Flowmaster Muffler
Platinum +4 Plugs
MSD SuperConductor Wires
and one heavy Right Foot!!!!

**Badgers??? We don't need no stinkin' badgers!!!**

**No Shirt, No Shoes, No Dice!**

well here is where i stand as far as an awd conversion. all too often i hear "well, if you want that sell your car and get a gst/x" it dosent matter if we want a turbo, or a faster car, or awd, thats all we ever hear. where i stand its better to do something people say is impossible or is out of the ordinary. before turbo kits were spefically made for our cars everyons solution for going to turbo was just to get the stock turbo models. now if you have the $3k you can dump some boost into your RS or GS. what was once thought impossible, and impractical is now widely accepted and used. while awd conversion will probably never come in a "kit" it dosent mean it cant be done. origionality, isnt that what this board is about? each person has their own tastes and who wants to be like everybody else?? if you wanna go awd, do it if you have the $$$. that would be kick ass to have a awd RS, or GS. it aint gonna be cheap, but then you have some seroius bragging rights. and youll be one of less than a handfull with an awd conversion. i say go for it, dont let others get you down.

i'm not dissing autos,but the fact is that unless you have a clutch, you can't rev to 6k and jump off the line, which is a huge advantage in being awd and manual.

For a turbocharged car, though, a car that can launch at 3K RPM and is automatic will launch harder then the same car launching at 6K RPM with a manual transmission. Simple fact is that a 5 speed cannot build boost on a neutral rev, where an automatic can build boost on the line at the stall speed. I have friends who launch their AWD A/T DSMs at 12 lbs of boost at 3500RPM. They launch like raped apes. In order to make boost, there must be a load on the engine. Free-revving is load-free, but when you are fighting your stall (torque) converter, there is a heavy load on the motor.

That being said, I would still do a 5 speed AWD with a stutterbox. Lets you build some boost as you are bouncing off of the first stage revlimiter on a 2 stage system.

Now, about the AWD stuff...
The rear crossmember is different, as are the lower control and lower lateral arms. The upper A arms are the same. The fuel tank is different, but the setup of the lines is the same. There is already a driveshaft tunnel. I recommend using AWD exhaust parts, right off of the shelf. Now, for the fun stuff...

I would use a Japanese Lancer EVO transmission, center diff, transfer case, and rear differential. This would mean mixing axle parts and having a custom driveshaft. The EVO rear end can be finnagled to bolt to the AWD crossmember. The transfer case and center diff bolt to the transmission. The transmission would bolt to a 420a with the use of a 1/2" thick steel adaptor plate. The only issue is clutch engagement. I would simply have a custom clutch made that will bolt to a modular Neon flywheel (I wouldn't use an aluminum flywheel because the AWD is more likely to bog with a light flywheel). This clutch would bolt to the Neon flywheel and match the input shaft splines of the EVO transmission. The stock shift linkages could probably be made to work, as the ends are the same on the DSM turbo 4G63 transmission, but the length is different. The stock motor mount could be used to support the passenger side of the motor, but creativity might be necessary to enable the transmission mounted mounts to bolt to the chassis. I don't think that this would be too difficult of a project, but I would recommend doing it at the same time as, say, a 2.4L swap, because if you are going to go through the hassle of fabricating what is necessary for this to all bolt on, you might as well give it some extra torque.

One last thing about this drivetrain is that it will require EXTENSIVE electrical modifications to make it work. The EVO is equipped with active differentials, and has a seperate ECU for this. I am sure that it would be possible to adapt this ECU to the existing harness. Another neat toy on the EVO is AYC, or Active Yaw Control. It will change the front/rear bias of power to induce oversteer or understeer to make the car more predictable. As far as I know, this is done with G sensors. You may or may not be interested in making AYC work, but I think that it would be worthwhile.

-=B-= <===== not that I have thought about doing this or anything...

Tell you what bill, if i win the lotto i'll hook you up... :thumbsup

EDFDC OWNZ

Will Werk for Mods

1995 RS

Current Mods:
Cracked Front Bumper
K&N Intake
Flowmaster Muffler
Platinum +4 Plugs
MSD SuperConductor Wires
and one heavy Right Foot!!!!

**Badgers??? We don't need no stinkin' badgers!!!**

**No Shirt, No Shoes, No Dice!**

what about the ECU will that be able to work still?

it's great to have someone like Bill living in the same area as me

hehe...
I think about this stuff too much...
Yeah, the ECU for the 420a would still work. The ECU doesn't do much with the transmission on a MT car. Getting the computer that controls the diffs to work on the other hand would be more difficult. I would even be happy with a LSD rear, a Quaife front differential, a Quaife center differential, and a viscous coupling. I think that this can be done fairly easily. Just needs someone to throw some money at it. This is on my list of things to throw money at.
-=B-=

>hehe...
>I think about this stuff too much...
>Yeah, the ECU for the 420a would still work. The ECU doesn't
>do much with the transmission on a MT car. Getting the
>computer that controls the diffs to work on the other hand
>would be more difficult. I would even be happy with a LSD
>rear, a Quaife front differential, a Quaife center
>differential, and a viscous coupling. I think that this can
>be done fairly easily. Just needs someone to throw some
>money at it. This is on my list of things to throw money at.
>-=B-=

after the rebuild and my body kit painted, im with you man...

AWD is pretty cool..

But if you are goign to do a job of this magnitude, you might as well make it RWD :-)

Less strain on the engine, and you can get more power :-)

~Tacoman

truth lies in the previous post. AWD is pimp, but i'd much rather have RWD which can be dangerious, but can also be fun as hell to drift around with. sure, you can drift with AWD, but you need a LOT more power. i can't think of many people on the board who can deny that.

then again, i live in new england and i'd probably rather go with AWD so i wouldn't die in the winter time :P

if you're going to go through all of the work of putting power to the rear wheels, why not make it so it only goes there?

i saw a picture a while back (over the summer sometime) if a 1g with a engine mounted the CORRECT way. longitudely. of course it must have cost like $9872462413601 to do it, but it was cool as hell. anyways, i'm done now.

if I were you I'd forget about the dreams of AWD and get a quaife LSD, if you want traction there ya go. the AWD in the GSX is only good for gripping and launching cuz its Front wheel biased boooo.


if you really must have awd I'd just get a WRX or a GSX

I didn't think that the viscous coupling really had a true bias... The viscous coupling can transfer 48% of the power to the rear wheels. That's not bad. It would transfer more, but it eats a bit in the process of transferring it.
And the 1G that yo usaw with the longitudinally mounted engine... there is one right here in New England. It is Bruce Kwartler's race car, which was originally one of the Buschur racecars. It was sold to Jesus in FL, but he tired of the project and sold it to Bruce. Last year, Bruce had a 4G63 powered Conquest (just like a Starion) that made some sick times. Buschur will sell the kit to mount a 4G63 longitudinally and bolt a powerglide to it for a reasonable price. Yes, that's right. There is even a recepie to make your DSM RWD, as long as it has a 4G63. It kills me to see the lack of inginuity that has taken over the 4G63 crowd, but that's beside the point. Now for a recap: Bruce = cool. Bruce's car (known as Mighty Mouse) = way cool. 4G63 = old but still cool. 420a = AWESOME! 2.4L 420a = perfection. 4G63 crowd = jaded, unoriginal, and annoying naysayers.
Any questions?
-=B-=

Ok....I'm bringing back an old thread......How would you make it RWD? I would love to have a RWD eclipse. People would shit themselves if the saw an eclipse that was actually drifting. I think this would be just as good, if not better than an AWD 420A. I would love to find out more about doing this.

>Ok....I'm bringing back an old thread......How would you make
>it RWD?

To make it RWD, you would have to change the way that the motor sits in your car. Right now, it sits horizontally, you would have to make the engine vertically (look under the hoods of a Camaro or Mustand or a S2000 or any RWD car), and you would see how the engine is mounted. Or, if you have the chance, look at Papadakis, and his 2001 Civic which is powered by a Prelude engine, which he converted to rear wheel drive.

>I would love to have a RWD eclipse.
Who wouldn't? :D

>People would shit
>themselves if the saw an eclipse that was actually drifting. I
>think this would be just as good, if not better than an AWD
>420A.

See this?...

Well its not really drifting, but its pretty close :D..

>I would love to find out more about doing this.

Look like 1 post under yours, and you will find the answers of life, err, I mean the question you asked :D..

~Tacoman

Yeah, I figured you would have to rotate the engine, but what would you use in the rear? How hard would it be to do? Would you just need custom motor mounts? What transmission would you use? I'm wondering if it would just be easier to make it AWD, and not have to rotate the engine. Whaddaya think?

It just won't fit the long way, at least not without removing the AC, running super-flat fans, and pushing the radiator assembly forward. Even then, it would be a tight squeeze, and a FMIC would be out of the question. I held my motor in place longitudinally when putting it back in, just to see the fitment. It is flat against the crossmember, and ends about halfway through the radiator (good thing it wasn't there at the time!). The motor mounts would be custom, as there is nowhere up front that is strong enough to hold a motor mount, except for the crossmember, but the mount sits high on the passenger side of the motor, so it won't meet the crossmember. The motor would not fit that way with the crossmember, by the way. That would also need to be modified.
Here's a pic I took while the motor was sitting front to back...
http://home.attbi.com/~silverklipz/RWD2.JP G

It's huge, so I seperated the JP and the G. Just remove the space. I am too lazt to resize it and post it. If you feel motivated, feel free to resize it, host it, and post it.
:)
-=B-=

>One last thing about this drivetrain is that it will require >EXTENSIVE electrical modifications to make it work. The EVO is >equipped with active differentials, and has a seperate ECU for this. >I am sure that it would be possible to adapt this ECU to the >existing harness. Another neat toy on the EVO is AYC, or Active Yaw >Control. It will change the front/rear bias of power to induce >oversteer or understeer to make the car more predictable. As far as >I know, this is done with G sensors. You may or may not be >interested in making AYC work, but I think that it would be >worthwhile.

Bill, with the new lancer evo coming in without the active differential, this becomes easier as you would not have to make the extensive electrical modifications you talked about. You could just use the mechanical differential and center coupling on the new american spec EVO8

No, it's not a "cool" as active control blah blah blah, but it would make such a modification FAR less of a hassle that it would be, and this type of thing would be a MAJOR hassle in the first place! I can't imagine trying to do this witout a LOT of money, time, and the proper tools and facilities! :o

-=B-= <===== not that I have thought about doing this or anything...

Oh noooo, I wouldn't have guessed that :rolleyes :P just kidding there.

And Bill, not everyone in the 4g63 crowd is an unoriginal naysayer, don't let the bad seeds taint your view of some good people in that crowd.

Here's something that may give you some hope.
http://www.ptcruiserclub.org/models/concepts/big_sky_awd/index.htm