Hay guys been a long time since I posted, had to do more homework on the 420a ya know?

I saw some guy who did a full rebuild and put 10.5's in his block and stayed N/A.

What I was woundering what kind of hp could he have gotten to the ground if he used 11.5s instead of 10.5s???

Sorry I forgot his name :)

Oh yea could sombody please explain the formula for 4% more power at each point of compresion? I see it on this site in the mods area.

Thnx guys, I'm still gonna try for the most hp to the ground and stay N/A, hard part will be passing the California Smog Test but I may give it a try if there is light at the end of the tunnel.

dont even thing about staying na if you want over 175 hp imo

Originally posted by donnyb373
dont even thing about staying na if you want over 175 hp imo

Nope not looking to go over 175.

Oh yea that guy I mentioned he got juuust about 160hp :)

I had 10.5 NA it wasn't bad I think, I was going to dyno it also but the line was so long that I just left.

Its ok power but nothing you'll get from a turbo.

Ok a power difference would be had from a compression ratio change. How much?? Lots of theories on that one, but most use the 4% gain. If I remember correctly if you had a complete stock engine and raised the compression you would get about 5.5hp per 1 pt of compression *assuming many factors*. This is in ideal conditions and assumes that the airflow in and out of the cylinder will increase at the same rate.

Personally I would say you could gain 5-10hp by the raising of compression by a point with a fully built engine, all supporting equipment, and tuned.

As far as overall horsepower, dont expect more than 160-175 like stated.

My previous setup:

10.5:1 Wiseco, Eagle Rods, Block Decked and Head milled yielding approx. 11.7:1 compression, Crane 16, custom intake manifold, ported head, stainless valves, all the bolt-ons, etc.......

I never got on a dyno, but I would approximate 160-165hp. I could stay right next to stock GST/GSX's. By the way the car was streetable and ran on 91 pump gas with an MSD ignition box with no problems.

If you want the most NA power to the wheels.....my opinion is 2.4 with high compression.

If you want to make better power, of course turbo will always make more.

Originally posted by gc8dc95
Ok a power difference would be had from a compression ratio change. How much?? Lots of theories on that one, but most use the 4% gain. If I remember correctly if you had a complete stock engine and raised the compression you would get about 5.5hp per 1 pt of compression *assuming many factors*. This is in ideal conditions and assumes that the airflow in and out of the cylinder will increase at the same rate. Personally I would say you could gain 5-10hp by the raising of compression by a point with a fully built engine, all supporting equipment, and tuned. As far as overall horsepower, dont expect more than 160-175 like stated. My previous setup: 10.5:1 Wiseco, Eagle Rods, Block Decked and Head milled yielding approx. 11.7:1 compression, Crane 16, custom intake manifold, ported head, stainless valves, all the bolt-ons, etc....... I never got on a dyno, but I would approximate 160-165hp. I could stay right next to stock GST/GSX's. By the way the car was streetable and ran on 91 pump gas with an MSD ignition box with no problems. If you want the most NA power to the wheels.....my opinion is 2.4 with high compression. If you want to make better power, of course turbo will always make more.

Hay thanks that's cool you could run like that!
One more question did you hone the cylinders out and to what size???
What was your labor cost if you took it to a shop if not what would be a good guess for rebuilding the whole thing along with p/p?
Sorry If I seem lazy but I don't get my hands dirty don't have time besides them little motors got wayyy too many little parts :)
I'm gonna keep the 420a just to keep it original as possible I just want it to be quick as hell besides I gotta prove somthing to all the na sayers :)

The guy's name was Daniel (daniel992gnt), he put down something near 160 (like 159.3). Here's his exact quote of what he said he has:


Internals are JE 10.6:1 pistons, eagle rods, ported head and intake manifold, 5 angle valve job, upgraded rocker arms, Crower stage 2 cams with aem cam gears milled block, and head, bored to .20 over.

Air is AEM cold air intake with 55mm TB

All new, water pump, oil pump, only moble 1 or red line oils.

n1 muffler, pacesetter header, test pipe.

24lb. accel injectors, SAFCII tuned.

Msd ignition with wires and coil with iridium plugs.

Depending on how much the block & head were milled, he may have been near 11.5:1 since he had the 10.5:1 pistons to begin with.

Are there any places that make 11.5:1 pistons? I typically see 10.5 & 12.5, so to achieve 11.5, you'd have to do the same has him. I think it's for every 0.005 off the head/block, it raises you 0.1 point of compression. In order to reach 11.5:1 with the 10.5 pistons, you'll need to shave 0.050 from somewhere. I wouldn't do more than 0.030 on the head, so you could do a 0.030(head)/0.020(block) to acheive this.

Or you could go to 12.5:1...

Cost....

Machine shop = block decked, bored .040, balanced, clean and inspect the cams & crank, etc........... $300
Cylinder Head = p&p, 5 angle valve job, milled, new valves and springs installed.........$350

I put everything together myself though, I am not sure on what the cost would be for them to build it, but would guess $200-300 more??

You will have to check prices with the machine shop you want to use because I give them a lot of business from various projects and usually get pretty good prices.

Even though it was only a 15 sec NA, it still shocked the hell out of a lot of people when yu pop the hood and they see nothing. It was well worth it in my opinion. I have had a GSX, an integra that could beat that GSX.........and this car was still a lot of fun.

Good Luck

Originally posted by gc8dc95
this car was still a lot of fun.

Agreed. No matter how much I want to go back to smooth, stock sailing, I really feel that the engine, even untuned with a blown head gasket, is the way it should have come from the factory - >10:1CR, high-revving, and a bit on the nasty side.

And I promise, everyone who's listened to my hopes and dreams for the car over the last three years, that I will get this bitch on the dyno before this year is out.

Originally posted by gc8dc95
Good Luck

Agreed. We need more all motor players.

Originally posted by DR1665
Agreed. We need more all motor players.

That we do. We need more car-specific info and parts for this type of buildup. In the meantime, I recommend neons.org for all your all-motor horsepower inqiries.

Originally posted by BumpinTalon
In the meantime, I recommend neons.org for all your all-motor horsepower inqiries.

OMG. Those guys are insane. Whenever I get to feeling like I've wasted six large and four years of my life, I browse their perf/eng forum and see all kinds of new ideas I want to try.

Crazy Neon owners. :P

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by BumpinTalon In the meantime, I recommend neons.org for all your all-motor horsepower inqiries.

OMG. Those guys are insane. Whenever I get to feeling like I've wasted six large and four years of my life, I browse their perf/eng forum and see all kinds of new ideas I want to try. Crazy Neon owners. :P

werd...they got some sillys over ther

Originally posted by donnyb373

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by BumpinTalon In the meantime, I recommend neons.org for all your all-motor horsepower inqiries.

OMG. Those guys are insane. Whenever I get to feeling like I've wasted six large and four years of my life, I browse their perf/eng forum and see all kinds of new ideas I want to try. Crazy Neon owners. :P

werd...they got some sillys over ther

Ok fellas I been doing my homework and this is what I come up with and still got a few more questions.

"Helpful Piston Information:
Compressions and Overbores:
For Import motors the rule of thumb is 9.5 with Steel Heads, and 10.5 with Alum. Heads dissipate heat and allow for higher compression. Overboring adds to the Cubic inch (more HP), and increases compression.

The European marketplace has for years run their Imports in the 9.5-11.2 range (although they have slightly higher octane gas available).

So, if you want to make some easy HP, raise that compression and overbore. In most cases it's an easy 15-20% HP gain!"

Eclipse GS/RS specs http://www.zemmo.com/2gnt.html

This was from a company that sells pistons and I came from a post that came from the guys at 2gnt.com and it seems that with the stock compression our cars will only put out a maximum hp of 25% increase at the crank with a P/P from what I understood (Note: this was from the manufacuture's specs so it must be gospel) and what I was wondering was if I went with 11.5's this would make the head a bit on the hot side (from the infromation quoted above) how do I keep the head cool enough to be a daily driver should I stuff 11.5's and would'nt stuff'n em in the engine make it run lean?

My theory is I should not overbore as this would make it run really really hot but just stick with stock bore to keep temps down.

If I need to tune the fule system could I keep it simple as installing slightly bigger fule injectors and or a hi flo fulepump? I'm trying to stay away from the ecm since it cannot be reflashed by any companys yet.

I have heard of decking and milling (Not too sure what it is I think I have an idea a little more on this would help thx ) I don't think I should have this done with stock bore 11.5s what are your thoughts?

Also can this be done w/o milling decking and w/o valves being too dangerously close to the pistons I think I may have enough room I dunno?

My goal is 210 to the crank no NO2 no boost while at the same time keeping my tailpipe clean as possible for the smog happy people of California.

Any tips ideas? Thnx!

I'm not sure where you read all that (links would be helpful, especially for things that supposedly factory spec), but I'll tell you right now that 210 at the crank in a stock displacement, daily driven, all motor 420A is going to be a real bitch to achieve. Are you planning on putting the engine on an engine dyno? You might stick to wheel horsepower like the rest of us. In the end, that's all that really matters in this game. Current record is 160whp, FYI.

Originally posted by fullmoon
I was wondering was if I went with 11.5's this would make the head a bit on the hot side how do I keep the head cool enough to be a daily driver?

I think they would, but it's not so much that they make the head hot as it is that the compress the air charge sufficiently to heat it up and that results in predetonation. You either run higher octane (which has a higher flash point) or detune the engine by reducing CR, pulling ignition timing, or injecting water/alky into the mixture. Pretty sure you don't want to be running water injection on a shitton of retarded timing for your daily driver. It would be like detuning the built engine to perform like stock.

Originally posted by fullmoon
My theory is I should not overbore as this would make it run really really hot but just stick with stock bore to keep temps down.

There is no point in boring the cylinders over in pursuit of increased displacement in this engine. It's all about freshening up the cylinder walls to ensure they are perfectly concentric. Get the +.020" ("twenty over") build done and know you did it right. That is your only concern at this point.

Originally posted by fullmoon
If I need to tune the fule system could I keep it simple as installing slightly bigger fule injectors and or a hi flo fulepump?

First of all, PLEASE spell FUEL the correct way. F-U-E-L. Thank you. Second, per your question, you should have little to no need of larger injectors until such time as you are maxing things out. My suggestion, and this is coming from someone fully built on a completely stock fuel system, would be to build your engine and then take it to the dyno for tuning. At that point, they can show you a map of your AFRs and advise you of where you might need more fuel, if at all. You've got enough to spend your money on with this project. You don't need to be spending money on larger injectors you may or may not need.

Originally posted by fullmoon
I'm trying to stay away from the ecm since it cannot be reflashed by any companys yet.

To achieve your goals (or come close to them, anyway), you are going to need some form of engine management. I went from the AFX/R ECU to the stocker and, let me tell you, the stock ECU is dumb as all get out. It's really good at saving the engine's ass, but it plays it too safe for my liking. I can feel it pull timing in the top end. Where the AFX/R used to pull all the way to the rev limiter at 8000rpm, the stocker feels like it runs out of gas above 6000rpm. MSnS will allow you to move the rev limiter beyond the stock redline and make more use of your cams.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention that my engine doesn't come into its own until just under 4000rpm. If the stock ECU has dumbed all the power out of it by 6000rpm, you can imagine it's little more than a noise-maker between 5000-6000rpm, thus leaving me with only 1000rpm to play.

The bulk of the power is going to come from the head, but the aim of high horsepower will come at the cost of less low-rpm power. You

Originally posted by fullmoon
I have heard of decking and milling (Not too sure what it is I think I have an idea a little more on this would help thx ) I don't think I should have this done with stock bore 11.5s what are your thoughts?

This is removing material from the mating surface of the head to effectively increase the compression ratio of the cylinders. I *might* do this on my 10.5:1 engine, but I wouldn't even think about it on a 11.5. Conversely, you can also lower CR by installing a thicker HG.

Originally posted by fullmoon
Also can this be done w/o milling decking and w/o valves being too dangerously close to the pistons I think I may have enough room I dunno?

Again, there are limits to how much material can be removed from the head without damaging it, but you shouldn't bother yourself with this idea. If you are installing higher CR pistons, then you are doing the job right and only need to have the head cleaned up for an MLS HG.

Originally posted by fullmoon
My goal is 210 to the crank no NO2 no boost while at the same time keeping my tailpipe clean as possible for the smog happy people of California.

Cliffs' Notes?

DONT go 11.5/1CR - More trouble than it's worth, especially on a daily driver. I knock with the AC on in 100* temps on 91 octane at 10.5:1CR.

DO get the +.020" bore to make sure your cylinders are true.
DONT get the over bore to look for more displacement.

DO consider some form of EMS. Your goals will require it.

DO consider a move out of Kalifornia. They take all the joy out of car ownership - the law is against modification, the roads suck, the traffic sucks, and the drivers suck. :thumbsdown

Hahahahaha!!!! Thnx :) I been looking into other places but that's about 2yrs down the rd gotta pay this put-put off first.

Sorry about the spelling I was in a rush to del a load and to top it off I don't have a true desk in the freightliner.

Thx for the heads up I think I just may try another way to make this little car fast, I think I may just go bolt-on city and just go for Carbon Fiber up the wazooo!

I have talked to carbon shop and they said I may be able to pull off about 800 lbs leaving my put-put with about 2000 to keep it from going airborn :)

I saw a mag this month some guy is doing 14 sec with a N/A Miata 125whp but he had 4 tb's I must say it was different.

Originally posted by fullmoon
Hahahahaha!!!! Thnx :) I been looking into other places but that's about 2yrs down the rd gotta pay this put-put off first.

Heh. You call it a putt putt. :P

Originally posted by fullmoon
Sorry about the spelling I was in a rush to del a load and to top it off I don't have a true desk in the freightliner.

It's all good. To be honest, I had forgotten who you were. Just don't be posting on the board while driving. I would certainly hope the twenty tons of whatever in my six at seventy isn't checking out the internet while driving. That would be scary. The "No zone" would be the entire highway.

Originally posted by fullmoon
Thx for the heads up I think I just may try another way to make this little car fast, I think I may just go bolt-on city

There's nothing wrong with a rebuild, but if you want a daily driver, consider taming things down a bit. Then again, if you're OTR for longer periods of time and will only drive the DSM a couple days a month, then why not? A single tank of race gas might last you all month. :shrug

Originally posted by fullmoon
Carbon Fiber up the wazooo! I have talked to carbon shop and they said I may be able to pull off about 800 lbs leaving my put-put with about 2000 to keep it from going airborn :)

Ah-ha! Now we're talking! The oft neglected side of the coin. More power + less weight = better performance. I've heard from SquidSkins up in Canada that they took about 800lbs out of their "Archer" car by insalling CF bits. That's a nice difference, right there. People say that, if the driver is consistent, he shaves a tenth off his time for every 100lbs of weight he removes from the car. Supposing you were really consistent in your launches, a completely stock 2GNT might go from a 16.9ET to a 16.1ET with just 800lbs of weight reduction. In theory, anyway.

Originally posted by fullmoon
I saw a mag this month some guy is doing 14 sec with a N/A Miata 125whp but he had 4 tb's I must say it was different.

If you want to see ITB set ups, check out Neons.org and search for "quad throttle body." Not as rare as you might think. I'm considering it myself one of these days, but I have repairs to tend to first.

Good luck to you.

Originally posted by DR1665
If you want to see ITB set ups, check out Neons.org and search for "quad throttle body." Not as rare as you might think. I'm considering it myself one of these days, but I have repairs to tend to first. Good luck to you.

A long time ago I saw a video of a neon on neons.org with the ITBs and it sounded so mean. Definately want to do this eventually as well.

-Nate
________________
-86 Cavalier CS 2.0 3spd auto
-95 Eclipse GS 5spd
-Mods: Megan Header, Megan Cat-Back, Pacesetter High-Flow Cat, AEM V2, Fluidyne Radiator, Hurst Short Shifter
-All-Motor Buildup on the way
-VIS Invader hood, R34 front, Halo Proejctors, M3 LED Mirrors, Projector Fogs

Originally posted by 98VengeI4
A long time ago I saw a video of a neon on neons.org with the ITBs and it sounded so mean. Definately want to do this eventually as well.

I never saw it, but I'm hoping Eddie Fierro will get his set up back on the car and I can check it out then. Definitely want to do this. Maybe a WRX-style hood scoop feeding four little K&Ns over velocity stacks or something. Tasty.

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by 98VengeI4 A long time ago I saw a video of a neon on neons.org with the ITBs and it sounded so mean. Definately want to do this eventually as well.

I never saw it, but I'm hoping Eddie Fierro will get his set up back on the car and I can check it out then. Definitely want to do this. Maybe a WRX-style hood scoop feeding four little K&Ns over velocity stacks or something. Tasty.

That sounds so sexy!! :love

-Nate
________________
-86 Cavalier CS 2.0 3spd auto
-95 Eclipse GS 5spd
-Mods: Megan Header, Megan Cat-Back, Pacesetter High-Flow Cat, AEM V2, Fluidyne Radiator, Hurst Short Shifter
-All-Motor Buildup on the way
-VIS Invader hood, R34 front, Halo Proejctors, M3 LED Mirrors, Projector Fogs