Check this out.

http://creationcenter.com/boards/howellauto/messages/1777.html

From the man himself, Gary Howell.

oh baby.. hook me up wit da stroker kit.... i want torque(sp) :-)

From Gary: (edited for typos;-) )

It will work for the Eclipse/Talon 420A as well. We are waiting on the crankshaft to
come back to build the first one now. The pricing will be the bottom
end kit, plus the new crankshaft. Not sure on the cost yet, I'm
shooting for the $1600. Kit will include, pistons, rings, rods, crank,
gaskets, oil pump, and bearings.

So it looks like we're finally going to get a stroker 420A! The only bad thing is that none of us did it first.

Turbo it, and kiss your axles goodbye!

Wow, only 2 replies on this topic. I expected so much more. For the guys that are staying NA this something they should get. If you're going turbo with this thing ... good golly miss molly. Should be quite a beautiful thing. I couldn't find the info about the compression on this thing would run. Dino, did you find it somewhere?

From Gary:

Current plan is to use a different piston pin location. We have been making long rod pistons, which have the pin moved up .136 inch, this will allow us to increase teh stroke .272 inch. I have to crunch the numbers, but between 2.2 and 2.3 litres will be the displacement.

It will be in such a way that if you had the special pistons, and the special crank you could put it together with everything else stock, including rods.

The protytpe I'm building has turbo pistons, and one with 13.5. In theory Red Line could be higher, as the rods are much stronger. Production kits will probably be 8.6, 10.5, and 12.5.

wo0t!
i am, looks interesting

so i wonder how much low end torque could be expected with the larger displacement as this seems more my style and when i come out of being broke i can add turbo... :-) but i like the low end torque better...

I see some really fast eclipses in the future.

Well, good. I'll throw in the nitrous now then and play around with it until she blows, then stroker here i come :-)

Seriously, this is great news for eclipse's. I'm so happy that finally companies like Hahn, Star, Crowler, Howell, etc... are all working on performance modifications to the 420a engines... bout time we started gettin some good stuff.

it's like... wow.. when i bought this car.. i thought i was just going to be a mid level sports enthusiat... but now it seems like it's possible to go all out...

and damn brad, your new car pic is damn nice looking.

good gawd!

And for +-1200$?????

For quality rods and pistons, you pay at least 700 bucks for the good stuff. Toss in the crank, rings, and the fact its a stroker!

my question is if the crank is re-welded or forged to be a stroker...

You know, it is funny Brad said that. I already decided and told Armond some time ago that if I blow my motor again I am going to stroke it. I was tired of hearing blah blah about it and no one doing anything about it, but I am glad Gary is on the ball. IF I ever blow my motor, which it somehow never seems to do no matter how much I beat on it, I am going stroker as well. That would make a S20G spool a lot nicer. As for axles, I am not worried about that since I do not have ABS. :D

If I wanted to build a fast NT, I would seriously look into a high compression stroked motor. It sounds a lot cheaper and faster than $8000.

Oh Kiku, the crank is the strongest part of our engine so I imagine any changes would be only to allow for the longer rods. What happens is a longer rod is used and the wrist pin is moved up on the piston to allow for the longer rods. Because the pistons are very durable and under utilized with what we are doing it should not cause any kind of reliability problems. Only downside I can think of is a possible loss of high end revs, but our engines have a very square bore/stroke already so it would not hurt much, and we have yet to be able to move our redline up anyway. I doubt this engine would have problems revving to 7200rpm.

woah! i just found this thread! I'm very excited about it, myself. If I blow my engine due to head gasket or spun bearing, I guarantee I would do this setup in mine. Be perfect prep for turbo kit when I finally get my car paid off. This is astounding! Kaptain is very excited, indeed.


admin@dsmscene.com

Would this happen to make my car as tourquey as my moms 94 Celica GT (2.2 liter 4 cylinder)??? That is one thing that I definitely miss about driving her car around. Her car feels a hell of a lot faster around town then mine just because of the low end torque her car has, cuz I know my car has more top end then hers. To be honest when people told me my car was supposed to be tourquey for a 4 cylinder I was a little disturbed since the only thing I had to compare my car to was her Celica and my dad's honda lx auto.

Yup definitely more torque with the stroker. I can't say it'll be the same at the celica. It may be more or it may be less but it'll definitely be much better than it is now. Plus some of your mods will yeild better results now because of the increase in displacement.

My question about the crank was around reliability of the crank itself. A cast crank should be much stronger than a crank that is welded together....right?

Shit too bad that wasn't around a couple months ago when I blew my engine. I would of got that shit done no questions asked about that shit.

since we would have more of a displacement would we be able to have more hp with less psi? or same psi i mean. wouldn't the 8.5 be best for turbo apps?

Yes on all accounts. Technically, I only see two negatives.

1. More loss of traction due to additional low end torque. This can be addressed with driving style.

2.Loss of high revs. This is relative. We can not raise redline and this engine should still make power to redline no problems.

Our crank kicks ass from the factory. It is a solid piece and well impressive if you could actually break it. I do understand your question Kiku and would like to know the details on a new crank that would be included myself.

Damnn I hate it when I miss topics like this.

Sounds damn good to me, can't wait to see the final specs on the 12.5:1 set.

"The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the scabbard,
The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow,
And the cleanest cut is the one withheld."

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All Motor Beast in the Making

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, Hooker 4-1 Stepped Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, SS Clutch Line, NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17. Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors and Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: Ported/Polished Intake Manifold, Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads

Damn, I gotta find myself a block to work with so I can build this and still drive. Can I use any engine 95-99 or do they vary at all? Time to hit the junk yard.

All the blocks are the same except the early 95's, which have the main bearing journals notched differently. Shouldn't be a problem, because they are a small minority.

If you get one and your mains don't fit, you'll see what i'm talking about ;-)

Darkone, will this be a prob for me since i have a '95 or will they most likely make a seperate one for the '95? hope so...and anyone know how much more hp the stroker kit will add with or without turbo?

The stroker kit (for the sounds of what it's including) shouldn't be a problem for you. Only thing is that when you buy aftermrket main bearings ... you can't. They didn't ever make it. It's not a problem though. Just go buy brand new OEM main bearings. But remember that it's just for the very first 95's that were made. So depending on when your car was made (not the year of it) you should be fine. Dino's car was actually built in 94 if I'm not mistaken, right Dino.

Anyway, the stroker will work just fine for you. Just when you do the rebuild get factory main bearings if you got that freak early 95 block.

anyone know the dates of that block? i'd like to check and see just to make sure which i have. i'd like to have aftermarket ones when i do the rebuild for reliability and performance reasons. it would put my mind at ease...i tend to worry about my car..a LOT! thanks for the help

Doesn't matter.. get a different block. Aside from that small detail, they're the same. If you get, say, a 96 block, you could use the bearings that came in the kit. If you stick with an early 95 block (mine was made Dec. 94) you'd have to get new OEM bearings for a 95 block.

would the oem bearings work for high hp apps? i wouldn't think that they would be as durable or work like the aftermarket ones.

Hey Dino, weren't you able to use the aftermarket bearings by using two of the bottom halves of the main bearing?
Just wondering, man,
-=B-=

Buster: HRC runs stock bearings. presented with my problem, Bill's suggestion was OEM bearings

The1Bill: Yes i was, but it was two top halves. Gives me fully oil grooved mains, but decreases the available load bearing surface a bit. Perhaps the increased oiling will offset any additional wear.

>Damnn I hate it when I miss topics like this.
>
>Sounds damn good to me, can't wait to see the final specs on
>the 12.5:1 set.
>
>"The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the
>scabbard,
>The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow,
>And the cleanest cut is the one withheld."
>
>Michael J. Kulaga
>e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
>http://highlander.dsmpower.com/
>
>All Motor Beast in the Making
>
>Injen CAI, 55mm TB, Hooker 4-1 Stepped Header, GS-T Muffler,
>AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, SS Clutch Line, NRG
>Susp. Motor Mount Ins., FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5,
>Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17. Front KVR
>Cross-Drilled Rotors and Carbon Fiber Pads
>
>To Be Installed: Ported/Polished Intake Manifold, Rear disc
>brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Rear KVR Cross Drilled
>Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads

1600 dollaz wish I had money.

well this question hasn't been asked yet, so here it goes
stage II kit or stroker kit? whats it going to be?

This kit is strictly for torque, what kind of numbers are we lookin at here, anybody have any estimates yet?

another thing, if somebody were to go get 10.6 compression(i think that was one of the given) could you run turbo on that or is that compression kinda high? I know you would probably lose alot going with a 8.6 compression without any turbo application, wouldn't you?

>well this question hasn't been asked yet, so here it goes
>stage II kit or stroker kit? whats it going to be?

Both. . .these are 2 different things that work well by themselves but better together.

>This kit is strictly for torque, what kind of numbers are we
>lookin at here, anybody have any estimates yet?
It's not really a kit, you are going to buy this kit and get a new crank, forged rods and pistons and the displacement of the engine will be changed from 2.0L to almost 2.4 due to the new specs on the rods and pistons and crank. I would say 10 - 20 ft/lbs increase in torque stock for stock. That is going to change when you add mods.


>another thing, if somebody were to go get 10.6 compression(i
>think that was one of the given) could you run turbo on that
>or is that compression kinda high?

Stan ran stage 2 turbo on a 10+ compression.

I know you would probably
>lose alot going with a 8.6 compression without any turbo
>application, wouldn't you?

Yes, I wouldn't go that route unless you were turboed.



Missing Car. . .
Contemplating Turbo. . . . .

http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/

Perf:
KYB AGX Struts
Neuspeed Sport Springs
5 Strut Bars (2 F/U, F/L, R/U, R/L)
Sprint Front Camber Kit
$15 Rear Camber Kit
Corbin's A/F Gauge
MSD DIS-2 Ignition System
Some Regrind Cams that need High Compression (which I don't have)
Ported Intake Manifold
Ported Throttle Body
Nameless Cold Air Intake with a K&N Filter
Custom 2 1/2 inch exhaust with Dual DTM Muffler
Empty Catalytic Convertor
Energy Suspension Motor Mount inserts
Hurricane_GS Short Shifter
Symborsky Shift Kit
Clutchmasters Stage 3 Modular
225/50/16inch Wheels and Tires


Audio:
Alpine CD Head Unit
Alpine Flex4 25W X 4 for Fronts and Rears
Alpine V-12 450W X 1 for Subs
Infinity Reference Series 5 1/4 and 1 inch tweeter component systems for fronts and rears
Blaupunkt 3 way 6x9's in the rears
3 MTX 5000 10" 12 ohm subs running 4 ohms mono

Are they going to make kits for over bored blocks as well?

NEED MORE DISPLACEMENT!!!! :-)

Overboring isn't for displacement. Almost all performance pistons require an overbore, (unless specified otherwise) simply as a precaution so that you can remove all wear on the cylinder bores during the rebuild (it's a bit more complicated than that, there's several other reasons, but ehh..)

Jeez Dino, you ARE the answerman! :-)

So I assume that means this kit will require the block to be bored. What is typical? .020? What is the max our engines can be bored to? I want like a 2.5 litre. MORE POWER!!! Maybe i'll invest in a whip! YAH MULE!

There isn't enough metal there for an extensive overbore, and the thinner those walls get the more likely you are to have cooling issues. Standard overbore for a rebuild is .020.. the most i'd ever go to is like .060, which probably wouldn't even net you a full cubic inch displacement.

I run 10.5:1 compression with a hrc stage 2 w/ FMIC and it runs FAST.

Cant wait to turn up the boost.

Is this kit going to be street CARB legal? I live in california.

>Is this kit going to be street CARB legal? I live in
>california.

It will not be certified.

Do you think if I have the kit I will pass a California Smog test?

ok, so here is my question will the axles snap even if you get ones from a GSX or the 2.4 spyder or something? so this wouldnt be very pratical so this is a rebuild kit that will change it to a 2.3 why can you get axles from a junk yard and use those? would it be better to do this then get a turbo?

Well, for one, GSX axles don't fit. Neither do GST axles.

Who's to say junkyard axles would be better than your stockers?

As for this or turbo.. screw it! Do BOTH! Buy the turbo, blow your motor, and use this as your rebuild kit. SO you end up 2.3L and turbocharged with NO LAG. THAT"S what would snap axles.. all the extra low end, PLUS a turbo. Serious power very quickly, and if you're on slicks, i can see axles snapping. Heck, Armond and Murix snap axles already.

Our Axles are that puny?!?! Thats scary!

*sigh*

No. Our axles are not that puny. But we're talking high horsepower output applications here. Armond is making almost 400HP OFF THE BOTTLE, and Murix isn't too far behind. 2.3L (that .3L makes a bigger difference than you think!) and 15PSI? I could see you snapping an axle on slicks with a hard launch, yeah. Strokers have lots of low end (compared to a stock 2L 420A), and slicks give you lots of traction...

Ya follow me?

any estimates on how much the full install for this kit woudl (should) cost?

I know its been talked about before but I don't remember the outcome. Can the crank be dropped without pulling the engine? If so, can the pistons be put in?

As for this or turbo.. screw it! Do BOTH! Buy the turbo, blow your motor, and use this as your rebuild kit.

Umm yeah ok, blow your motor then chances are that your rod(s) will try to get too close and personal to your block. Which in turn, you'll end up with a worthless piece of iron :7 :7

i'm just joking with ya.

Secondly, even if they did fit, you would not want a set of GSX axles as they are just about the thickness of toothpicks. Then again, they have nno torque split between the front and rear, so they have 4 axles doing what the rest of us have only 2 doing.
-=B-=

actually... this has been done already for about 1 year... some RS was using stratus bottom end 2.4 ltr of joy!!! bolted rite up he said

96RS ~ full 99GS special body conversion, aem cai, greddy header, greddy sp exhaust, afx pulley, b&m sS, magecores & NGKs, S-AFC, Sparco Torino, illuminas, prokits, ingalls camber, gunmetal GS rims, ST Sways, STBs, lower rear tie bar, sound system, a shit load more.

97 ~ GSX stock for cock for now but smokes 420a :)

Skrilla? Or who are you talking about?

its not just a bolt-up item...new ecu, new harness, new exhaust, new intake (remember, the exhaust is by the firewall on the 2.4L engines.

wont matter. keep the 2.0 head, and no wiring involved.

Me and dave were talking about this. The neon guys just use the 2.4L block, as the 2.4 head and the 2.0 head are indentical.

our head _should_ also bolt right up, despite being "backwards".

this is the 1st ive heard of a DSM version of the 420a using the 2.4, but the head should bolt up fine. key word is should, someone needs to find the bolt patterns and compare them.

new engine mounts may be required, again have to look at the 2.4 block (never paid that close attention to my neon friends engine mounts ;)), but that shouldnt be tough.

>Check this out.
>
>http://creationcenter.com/boards/howellauto/messages/1777.html
>
>From the man himself, Gary Howell.

I run some numbers wrong in my first calculation the kit will be a 2150cc kit.

The Kit will include a Crank, Eagle Rods, JE Pistons, Clevite 77 Rod Bearings, Clevite 77 Main Bearings, Melling Oil Pump, and Mopar bottom end gasket set. Think of it as our bottom end kit, plus a crank.

It will fit all 420A blocks, but my preference is for the 95 blocks because you can use upper half bearings in the top and bottom to get full groove mains. The puts more oil to the rods, the only draw back is you have to buy and extra set of main bearings to get other upper half.

The test engine is 13.9 to 1 compression. We will not offer that compression, that is to test the crank really hard. Offered compression will be 8.6, 10.5, and 12.5.

Gary

sweet this is looking like a very good improvement to our engines.. turbo'd or not.. im even considering just doing a mad N/A setup, but if i did i wonder which one i should do the 10.5 or 12.5 considering that i would like to add a turbo on that for some added power, but dont want to overdo it. i just want better torque response in the low end to keep it through the majority of the revs.... so how much longer till the kits are released and how much will the kits run... i look forward to the day.

I think I'm foaming at the mouth. Turbo, stroked motor, well you get the picture. I do have a question about the crank though. Might be a stupid one but can the new crank be lightened/knife-edged or is that a really bad idea because of the extra strain on it?

-Paul

>I think I'm foaming at the mouth. Turbo, stroked motor,
>well you get the picture. I do have a question about the
>crank though. Might be a stupid one but can the new crank
>be lightened/knife-edged or is that a really bad idea
>because of the extra strain on it?
>
>-Paul

No need to knife edge a flat crank, they don't need counter weights, you just take them off. We have lighten stock 420A cranks by 5 to 7 pounds in this mannor, and drive them on the street.

>sweet this is looking like a very good improvement to our
>engines.. turbo'd or not.. im even considering just doing a
>mad N/A setup, but if i did i wonder which one i should do
>the 10.5 or 12.5 considering that i would like to add a
>turbo on that for some added power, but dont want to overdo
>it. i just want better torque response in the low end to
>keep it through the majority of the revs.... so how much
>longer till the kits are released and how much will the kits
>run... i look forward to the day.

We have run 10.5 on standard stroke Neon engine with a turbo run 8 psi. So far it has worked pretty good. The guy drove the car home from here to Lake Tahoe.

i guess then that if i plan i boosting then i should look towards the 10.5 in order to be safe and should be able to run 5-8psi cause im sure both will yeild great results.. have you been able to calculate what can be expected in an increase of torque or even hp with the different compression ratios.. i guess im just looking to build a faster/quicker daily driver till i one day turn it over to project status..

>i guess then that if i plan i boosting then i should look
>towards the 10.5 in order to be safe and should be able to
>run 5-8psi cause im sure both will yeild great results..
>have you been able to calculate what can be expected in an
>increase of torque or even hp with the different compression
>ratios.. i guess im just looking to build a faster/quicker
>daily driver till i one day turn it over to project status..

It is a trade off, the higher compression will allow you to leave harder, but will limit told power on top end a little bit. However the more sucessful race teams are running the higher compression, instead of the lower compression,.

yeah that makes sense.. but as was menchened before the 420a engine should still be able to rev just as high to reach redline and still hold onto the powerband, right.. even with the extra displacement and higher compression.

>yeah that makes sense.. but as was menchened before the
>420a engine should still be able to rev just as high to
>reach redline and still hold onto the powerband, right..
>even with the extra displacement and higher compression.

You have stronger rods, and stronger pistons so rpms should not be a concern with in reason.

oh almost didnt think of this but will the block need to be bored when using the 10.5 kit.. im assuming this is common practice when using the aftermarket pistons, but just being sure.

Yes. Generally it is .020 over stock, but i am sure the pistons could be had in stock bore, or even .010 if you were to have them specially ordered. .020 is the norm for an overbore because it is almost certain to remove any out-of-round or wear in the cylinder bore. Since you have a 95, Jason, i'd recommend the .020 over the .010 or stock bore. (and buying two sets of mains)

yeah thats what i was thinking... i think im going to start saving up for this and such... and maybe i can get a good deal on a place that will do it that wont cost and arm and a leg.... such as the place Joe got his done at... hmm i guess ill just have to be different.. :-)

That'd be so sweet.

Gawd, i wish this had been around when i blew my motor..

I may have to keep the car. . . . . . . . . .



current status unknown

http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/

Perf:
KYB AGX Struts
Neuspeed Sport Springs
5 Strut Bars (2 F/U, F/L, R/U, R/L)
Sprint Front Camber Kit
$15 Rear Camber Kit
Corbin's A/F Gauge
MSD DIS-2 Ignition System
Some Regrind Cams that need High Compression (which I don't have)
Ported Intake Manifold
Ported Throttle Body
Nameless Cold Air Intake with a K&N Filter
Custom 2 1/2 inch exhaust with Dual DTM Muffler
Empty Catalytic Convertor
Energy Suspension Motor Mount inserts
Hurricane_GS Short Shifter
Symborsky Shift Kit
Clutchmasters Stage 3 Modular
225/50/16inch Wheels and Tires


Audio:
Alpine CD Head Unit
Alpine Flex4 25W X 4 for Fronts and Rears
Alpine V-12 450W X 1 for Subs
Infinity Reference Series 5 1/4 and 1 inch tweeter component systems for fronts and rears
Blaupunkt 3 way 6x9's in the rears
3 MTX 5000 10" 12 ohm subs running 4 ohms mono

damn... i already have a million things on my "i wants it now!" list, i guess i have to add another one to the pile!! so many wants, so little money.. :( the kit looks great.. cant wait to see some ppl putting them on.

We are going with a .030 over bore on the kit. You are buying the kit to get displacement, so we are giving it to you. At .030 over you still will have two clean up bores availible .040, and .060 both of which the block is capable of.

Any ETA on availability?