Okay so I swapped in a new ECU and the car still does not fire...

Here are some side notes, so if anybody thinks of any idea's or anything to try, PLEASE let me know, I need this bitch to run, lol.

When cranking, my Snap On scanner IS telling me the following:
I have a cam/crank signal.
I have TPS value and voltage.
ASD and Fuel relays are both okay.
Fuel pressure is fine.

I did a spark test with the scanner and I got spark to both sides of the coil pack.

BUT when cranking w/ out doing the test w/ the scanner, there is no spark.

Timing is dead on, compression is 180 across the board.

What else can cause the ECU to not see spark? The engine fuse is okay too.

THIS IS DRIVING ME FUCKING CRAZY GUYS, I have searched like crazy and found nothing really, and if I did find something, I tried it and nothing worked.

Can someone point me a in a good direction or something PLEASE!!!

Do you have 12v at the coil while cranking?

Originally posted by dmt111701
Do you have 12v at the coil while cranking?

Honestly, I dont remember. We have done so much shit lately testing stuff, I dont even remember...

What is/was your idea or solution?

So why did you replace the PCM then? Check your battery voltage while cranking if it drops below 9.6 V then the PCM shuts down. If you still have problems i live in hartville ohio (between akron and canton) i can come take a look at it. Let me know.

Originally posted by Quadman313
So why did you replace the PCM then? Check your battery voltage while cranking if it drops below 9.6 V then the PCM shuts down. If you still have problems i live in hartville ohio (between akron and canton) i can come take a look at it. Let me know.

I was thinking this. Or possible bad ground somewhere. Spark signal starts at the Crank sensor-----ecu-----ASD-----Coil pack.

Originally posted by Quadman313
So why did you replace the PCM then?

well DUH!!!

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
This is EXACTLY why, you just dont GUESS on parts to replace like the guy above me said to do. All you have to do is take your time and diagnose what the true problem is instead of guessing on stuff to replace.

lollers.

Originally posted by djtrickee

Originally posted by Quadman313 So why did you replace the PCM then?

well DUH!!!

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST This is EXACTLY why, you just dont GUESS on parts to replace like the guy above me said to do. All you have to do is take your time and diagnose what the true problem is instead of guessing on stuff to replace.

lollers.

Fuck you DJ, you are a dousche.

The Snap On procedure on our software on the computer had given us a test to run called 'Test w/ no codes in PCM'.

We ran this test, testing multiple things and if everything checked out okay after the test, the last thing it said to do if everything was test alright, was to replace the PCM...

Battery voltage is not less than 9v either while cranking.

So, your getting spark and fuel fine, and your ecu is new and sensors work. My only other suggestion is ground, only because you have the 2 major things to start your car fuel and spark, also you say your battery is fine. I may be wrong, but it has to be something small since everything you checked out is fine. My car wouldnt start on me 3 times, 1st was ecu, 2nd was little ground cable on the front of the block above the starter, and 3rd was asd relay. The only way i found out it was the asd relay was checking both relays to the fuel connection and making sure the fuel pump primes when the key is turned on. Hope you figure out.

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
So, your getting spark and fuel fine, and your ecu is new and sensors work. My only other suggestion is ground, only because you have the 2 major things to start your car fuel and spark, also you say your battery is fine. I may be wrong, but it has to be something small since everything you checked out is fine. My car wouldnt start on me 3 times, 1st was ecu, 2nd was little ground cable on the front of the block above the starter, and 3rd was asd relay. The only way i found out it was the asd relay was checking both relays to the fuel connection and making sure the fuel pump primes when the key is turned on. Hope you figure out.

my fuel and ignition relays are different so i cant swap them out to see if the other works.

well thats probably your problem then :P

No really, I don't know what else to say.

The Ignition and Fuel relay's are diffrent. I dont know, its weird.

I guess I could just buy a new ASD for it and see what happens...

EDIT: I called Autozone, NAPA and Advance Auto and no one sells them, where did you guys pick yours up from?

Dont tell me Satin is the only place!?

Okay so after reading just about EVERY post on 'no spark' on here, I noticed in a post that someone mentioned something about the Vehicle Speed Sensor being in series with the crank sensor.

SO, I am going to try to clean out all the dirt/grime that might be down there tonight at class, unplug it and see what happens.

EDIT: Since my scanner IS seeing a signal from the ASD while cranking, that rules out the ASD from being a culprut (sp?) here, so no need now to buy a new relay.

I figured I MUST have had a short some where in the cam/crank wiring, and we checked it out and didnt see anything, but obivously I do not since the scanner is seeing a signal from both the cam/crank sensors while cranking.

This is craziness. I can send a signal from my scanner to the coil and get spark when not cranking, but when I unplug the scanner, and try to crank, there is no spark at the coil.

I know this MUST be something simple, but it is DRIVING ME FUCKING CRAZY!

Advance auto parts does sell the ASD relay, the number mr76, but since you dont need it then you can keep the number just in case. My two relays are the same for the ASD and fuel relay, i dont see why yours isn't, that is weird. I have driven around without my vss for awhile now and it still drives fine. That shouldnt be the reason it doesnt crank, i take it all your grounds are ok.

Shot in the dark, but what about the ignition switch? If it wasn't allowing a connection as it should (or shorting out), could that cause the problem of no fire?

Originally posted by Quadman313
So why did you replace the PCM then?

because thats about the most overperscribed fix on this board. "its your ecu..get another one!" and 9.99 times out of 10..its not the ecu. that is my biggest pet peve on here...its aaaalways the ECU...because it happened to a brothers, cousins, dogs, roomates, sisters, 3rd cousin's left nut and it fixed it right away!

btw that was in no way directed towards the OP..my rant was directed towards those people who think their helping..but really just taking a shot in the dark.

Originally posted by 96eclipse2nr

Originally posted by Quadman313 So why did you replace the PCM then?

because thats about the most overperscribed fix on this board. "its your ecu..get another one!" and 9.99 times out of 10..its not the ecu. that is my biggest pet peve on here...its aaaalways the ECU...because it happened to a brothers, cousins, dogs, roomates, sisters, 3rd cousin's left nut and it fixed it right away! btw that was in no way directed towards the OP..my rant was directed towards those people who think their helping..but really just taking a shot in the dark.

LOL.

Like I said before, the only reason I picked up a new ECU was because all the test we did, the last thing it said if everything else checked out okay was to replace it.

here is an odd ball question though:

even though i am seeing a signal from the ASD relay, could it still be bad? could it not be giving enough voltage or something? it could be seeing an input signal to the ECU but maybe its just bad and not sending the output signal? am i wrong or just confusing myself here?

Sounds right, it could be bad. Now pull both relays out and see if they can plug into another, if not then i dont know what kind you have.

Unplug them and see if your scan tool says the same thing. If not, then maybe the ASD's fine, but find one to test swap with.

Is your scanner showing an RPM signal during cranking? It should be..the crank sensor is the main sensor for rpm and spark, so i'd start there to be sure you have power and ground at the crank sensor, and the actual signal coming from the sensor. Both the ASD and fuel pump relays are the same, its your any old typical SPDT 12volt automotive 5 pin relay. You can use a multimeter on the crank sensor to show the pulsed output on the crank sensor output wire during crank as well. I've personally seen issues with relays where the contacts inside were going bad, but it still showed voltage, but had no current potential..YOu can grab a relay at most any stereo/alarm/remote starter install shop..I've used those on my car, as they plug right into the car's socket.

relays are the direction here as matt said. The Scanner only reads what the PCM tells it to. IF the PCM sends a ground to thge ASD coil. as long as the coil shows the correct resistance the PCM thinks the ASD is clicking over. As matt pointed out, if the contacts of the relay are flashed over, they will be able to pass voltage but not support any amperage.

Remember, that scanner is a tool, not an answer. And btw go get the latest updates. The new carts are programmable by the dealer. No more swapping out chip sets.

Terry

maybe check the ignition switch . i heard it can short where it looks like everything works but doesnt crank unless you play with it.try keep turning the key on nd off real fast .who knows maybe youll get lucky . its worth a try

Originally posted by XtremeRS
Is your scanner showing an RPM signal during cranking? It should be..the crank sensor is the main sensor for rpm and spark, so i'd start there to be sure you have power and ground at the crank sensor, and the actual signal coming from the sensor. Both the ASD and fuel pump relays are the same, its your any old typical SPDT 12volt automotive 5 pin relay. You can use a multimeter on the crank sensor to show the pulsed output on the crank sensor output wire during crank as well. I've personally seen issues with relays where the contacts inside were going bad, but it still showed voltage, but had no current potential..YOu can grab a relay at most any stereo/alarm/remote starter install shop..I've used those on my car, as they plug right into the car's socket.

I dont think I even looked at the RPM signal while cranking, I was just looking for the actual signal from the crank sensor. I am going to pick up a new ASD relay tonight before class, but the plugs were diferrent and it wouldnt let me swap them before, It is weird. I will keep you updated later tonight when I get back from class.

Well, thought i could help, but now my car wont start. It started after cranking it for awhile and then idled all messed and immediately shut off not even 10 secs of being on. It wont start anymore so if you find something let me know. I am in the same boat, i got spark, fuel, fuses good, relays tested and good, i am gonna check my timing one day when i get tired of being pissed.

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
Well, thought i could help, but now my car wont start. It started after cranking it for awhile and then idled all messed and immediately shut off not even 10 secs of being on. It wont start anymore so if you find something let me know. I am in the same boat, i got spark, fuel, fuses good, relays tested and good, i am gonna check my timing one day when i get tired of being pissed.

lol sorry to hear man.

Unfortunately I wont be able to get to my car tonight @ class because one of our techs from work went home sick so I had to stay late and it wasnt even worth the drive out to class, so hopefully I will find something out tomorrow, if not, I am having it towed home to check stuff out

Okay here is what is up after tonights tests at school w/ the monster:

2 new relays, ASD and fuel...still no start.

still no spark to coil pack. but the coil is seeing 12v while cranking...

here is the interesting things now:

1. i unplugged the cam sensor, and had a classmate start the car, it started and ran (keep in mind crank sensor is still plugged in) what i would call 'limp' mode. sounded like it was running on 2 cyl's really. then i tried plugging the cam sensor back in while it was running, and it shut off immediately. tried again, same thing.

2. then i reversed it. i unplugged the crank sensor and plugged in cam sensor, and tried starting the car and it just cranked and wouldnt start. and thats beacuse i believe the crank is the first signal.

now, can someone point me in a direction to go here? i mean, this nuuuts. i need to know what color the wires are for the computer power and ground, does anyone know what they are?

i have good fuel pressure so fuel is crossed out to being a problem.

i replaced the cam sensor, both relays, new pcm, new msd coil, new msd wires, new plugs, what else is there to control it? i am lost here, someone shoot me some advice please so i can get it going monday hopefully at class!

p.s. i know the crank sensor is fine and obviously doesnt need replaced since it started from the signal from the crank sensor itself!

TIA TIA TIA!

Are you sure that you have the correct harnesses plugged into the cam sensor, coil pack, and VSS sensor? If I remember correctly, those three harnesses (or at least two of them) are the exact same. I've actually fried a couple of ECUs in the past by accidentally reversing two of them. Also, the wire colors for some of those harnesses changed between different year models.

Doug is very right, all three plugs are the same.

Mike read the the troubleshooter of your Scanner. test the Cam and crank with it.

Plug in the cam sensor only and see if the scanner is seeing cam signal (yes/No) do this with the crank unplugged.

The reverse the order plug in the crank and unplug the cam. You could just skip this step since it does start.

If one sensor is bad, it will make the other appear bad ect ect. This is all in the troubleshooter kart.

Next, since you replaced the cam sensor, if the scanner is not seeing signat then you have a problem from the sensor to the ecu possibly. Could be connector related. If you have a short it could have damaged the new ECU as well.

Are you getting any codes with the scanner? You do have the asian karts right to read the Mitsu ecu? Your not reading the Generic obd2 kart are you? The generic scan will miss a great deal of info on our cars.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Doug is very right, all three plugs are the same. Mike read the the troubleshooter of your Scanner. test the Cam and crank with it. Plug in the cam sensor only and see if the scanner is seeing cam signal (yes/No) do this with the crank unplugged. The reverse the order plug in the crank and unplug the cam. You could just skip this step since it does start. If one sensor is bad, it will make the other appear bad ect ect. This is all in the troubleshooter kart. Next, since you replaced the cam sensor, if the scanner is not seeing signat then you have a problem from the sensor to the ecu possibly. Could be connector related. If you have a short it could have damaged the new ECU as well. Are you getting any codes with the scanner? You do have the asian karts right to read the Mitsu ecu? Your not reading the Generic obd2 kart are you? The generic scan will miss a great deal of info on our cars. Terry

Dougie:
All the plugs are plugged in correctly, the car WAS running fine for about 2 weeks before this hapened.

Terry:
Yes, I am using the asian pack and troubleshooter in my scanner with the Mitsubihsi Adapter and OBD2 connection devices. The scanner says, while cranking, that it is picking up a signal from the crank/cam sensors. HOWEVER 'sometimes' the scanner will switch from YES to No real quick w/ the cam sensor for the signal. The actual magnet on the cam was a cunt hair loose, so I tightened that last night and that still wouldnt make it work.

Soemthing is boggling around here, and I cannot find it. It is really starting to test w/ patience, lol.

Keep the idea's coming guys! Thanks so much.

Mike,

Did you check the wiring for your cam/crank sensors? It might have shorted somewhere since you say it was showing the signal as on and then went to off and back.

And if it was a power wire for the ecu don't you think your snapon scanner wouldn't be able to connect?? Of course this is all just speculation as I don't own or have never used one. I need to buy one though.

-Nate
________________
-97 Avenger I4 5spd (R.I.P.)
-95 Eclipse GS 5spd
-Mods: Megan Header ,Megan Racing Cat-Back, AEM V2, Fluidyne Radiator
All-Motor Buildup on the way

Originally posted by 98VengeI4
Mike, Did you check the wiring for your cam/crank sensors? It might have shorted somewhere since you say it was showing the signal as on and then went to off and back. And if it was a power wire for the ecu don't you think your snapon scanner wouldn't be able to connect?? Of course this is all just speculation as I don't own or have never used one. I need to buy one though. -Nate ________________ -97 Avenger I4 5spd (R.I.P.) -95 Eclipse GS 5spd -Mods: Megan Header ,Megan Racing Cat-Back, AEM V2, Fluidyne Radiator All-Motor Buildup on the way

Okay, well today I connected a jumper wire from the cam sensor harness straight to the ECU signal wire (black/green) and it still did not start so now I know there are no shorts anywhere in the wiring.

I noticed when I pulled the cam sensor off, that there was A LOT of magnetic field, like 1/3" from the cam magnet and sensor, I could hear the ASD relay clicking.

Should I possibly try replacing the actual CAM MAGNET? Is it possible for those to go bad at all?

EDIT: Could a possibly bad TPS sensor fault this sensor sense it is tied in somewhere?

Or even, could the crank sensor be bad itself (although it starts the car w/ the cam unplugged after awhile of cranking) and it making the cam sensor look fucked up??

Any advice wuold be greatly appreciated as I had it towed to my shop today and I can work it tomorrow morning again!

this is going to be a dumb response i believe but did you actually pull a plug and ground it against the block to see if you get a spark firing

i know you said that you had spark to both sides of the coil pack but i dont remember seeing where you had spark coming from the coil pack

if i missed it then i apolologize for the useless post
but my last no start was that problem

Originally posted by baxsom
this is going to be a dumb response i believe but did you actually pull a plug and ground it against the block to see if you get a spark firing i know you said that you had spark to both sides of the coil pack but i dont remember seeing where you had spark coming from the coil pack if i missed it then i apolologize for the useless post but my last no start was that problem

I have a snap on spark tester that where you pull the wire, put the tester in the end of the wire and clip it to a grounded bolt, and yes i tried that and there is no spark to the plugs, let alone coming out the coil, but THERE is 12v to the coil while cranking.

Now, I will say, I do get ONE spark out of the coil it seems when the crank hits the #1 position for the crank sensor...thats it though.

C'mon guys, I know you guys MUST have something in the back of your head for me to try/test!! :)

I don't have chit in mind...but you definitely need to get this diagnosed and fixed. My car is having almost exact same symptoms, so maybe your problem will be mine as well. Just go figure...I managed to drive the car once after finally getting a non-grenaded tranny swapped in lol.

Good luck to ya bro...and if I manage to figure mine out, I'll make sure to post about it just in case we're having the same issue :thumbsup

Well, after thinking long and hard, I have a couple suggestions, take them or leave them:
I noticed you never replaced the crank sensor because it started with it in. However, when it DID start, it ran like crap. And, you also noticed that you're not getting the number of sparks you're supposed to when cranking.

I suppose maybe you could try a new one of these.

I'm most intrigued by the fact that it started, and then shut off when the cam was plugged in. Why? What did the computer see that caused it to shut off? Were the crank and cam so far out of wack that it decided to shut it down? I don't know if that's the decision it makes based on that, but I guess it's a possibility.

Here's another possibilty. When connecting the cam sensor, you might have inadvertantely grounded something that shouldn't have been grounded. This freaked the ECU out and it shut down. Could the pigtail be at fault? Could faulty wiring or melted wiring be at fault?
I know you said you took the signal wire to the ECU, but that would check if there's a BREAK in the wire, not necessarily a short in the power or ground. Could there be a break in the power or ground wire to the cam sensor itself?

Just some thoughts. This one is a doosy!

Brian

Originally posted by ForceFed420a
Well, after thinking long and hard, I have a couple suggestions, take them or leave them: I noticed you never replaced the crank sensor because it started with it in. However, when it DID start, it ran like crap. And, you also noticed that you're not getting the number of sparks you're supposed to when cranking. I suppose maybe you could try a new one of these. I'm most intrigued by the fact that it started, and then shut off when the cam was plugged in. Why? What did the computer see that caused it to shut off? Were the crank and cam so far out of wack that it decided to shut it down? I don't know if that's the decision it makes based on that, but I guess it's a possibility. Here's another possibilty. When connecting the cam sensor, you might have inadvertantely grounded something that shouldn't have been grounded. This freaked the ECU out and it shut down. Could the pigtail be at fault? Could faulty wiring or melted wiring be at fault? I know you said you took the signal wire to the ECU, but that would check if there's a BREAK in the wire, not necessarily a short in the power or ground. Could there be a break in the power or ground wire to the cam sensor itself? Just some thoughts. This one is a doosy! Brian

You are DAMN right this is a doosy, lol.

To answer your suggestions though:

1. I am going to pick up a crank sensor tomorrow and see what happens, its a shot in the dark I guess ya know.

2. I believe i dont have any shorts/breaks in wires cuz all my tests to the harnesses are fine. Meaning, I have my 5v source, 9v source and contiunuity for ground. I traced everything too and found no breaks.

3. I thought it could possibly be a pigtail for the cam, but that was replaced today with another new cam sensor that I exchanged.

This is out there for sure, something is fooking up.

I post tomorrow afternoon after I pick up the lovely $100 crankshaft sensor! The only thing I can think of is that there is a SMALL oil leak somewhere from the back of my block, been like this for awhile, and it sometimes drips in the pigtail connector of the crankshaft sensor, but I cleaned the shit out of it w/ brake cleaner and compressed air. Anyway, I will try a new one tomorrow.

Also, is there supposed a small like magnet on the end of the crank sensor, or is the whole just magnitized?

The black/green at the cam sensor is the ground wire. These are your wire descriptions for the cam and crank sensors:

Cam Sensor:

black/green = ground
Yellow = sensor power
blue/red = cam signal to ECU

Crank sensor:

black/green = ground
Yellow = sensor power
blue/white = crank signal to ECU

There are several tests you can do with this information, and a simple multimeter. To check the wires for any shorts or open circuits, use the continuity test on the meter, and first check for a wire possibly shorting to ground. Put one lead of the meter to battery ground, and the other lead to one of the sensor's 3 wires. Of course you should see a good ground on the black/green. You should not see any grounds with the key ON, on the yellow power wires. With the key off, the power wires may rest at ground, not too sure there. The signal wires, i believe, should not rest at ground as well. Now you can also test wire continuity from the sensor pigtail, to the ECU PIN. You want to test at the ECU pin, to also check for poor pin to wire connections. You should get full continuity from the sensor pigtail to the ECU pin, on each SIGNAL wire.

If the wire colors listed above are not the right ones at your sensors, then you have the wrong pigtails in the wrong sensors, although i dont think thats it. A faulty crank sensor and/or wiring is what i would be very suspect of..

Originally posted by XtremeRS
If the wire colors listed above are not the right ones at your sensors, then you have the wrong pigtails in the wrong sensors, although i dont think thats it. A faulty crank sensor and/or wiring is what i would be very suspect of..

That is very very wrong. The 95/96 had the chrysler style plugs, if the plugs were updated then the wiring colors are different at the actual plug. Some early 97's had the chrysler plug as well.

Using the wire colors is a good guideline but one must be careful not to jump to conclusions if the colors dont match.

At this point i would want to see the wave pattern generated by the cam and crank sensor (you need a vantage and there is no way a multimeter will tell you anything other than there is activity or not). As well as an answer to the other things i mentioned above that you never commented on Mike.

I suspect a problem with the cam circuit. The old sensor may have been damaged and swapping in another ECU may have damaged the new ECU. This is why i am so against just trying different parts. The fact that the Scanner flickers a No to cam signal concerns me. You might have a bad crank sensor. If the Crank sensor is throwing spikes in the wave pattern, the car may still start and run poorly.


Your next question is to ask why would the cam sensor signal appear to flicker on the Scanner? My answer to that has already been stated and is detailed in the troubleshooter kart.

The next thing i would also want to watch would be the 9v reference signal to the Cam and crank sensor. If the 9v signal is weak when a load from the sensor is applied, the sensor will relay a poor signal as well. Sensor timing could be a result of a bad sensor. If the cam or crank is reading signal but is relaying the signal with a delay, the ECU may not accept it. The signal may not be corrupted enough to cause the ECU to throw a code.

Another thing to investigate is the loose cam magnet. While the magnet was loose, was the nipple that inserts into the Cam damaged to the point that the magnet is now "out of time?" This will cause the car to not start as well.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon

Originally posted by XtremeRS If the wire colors listed above are not the right ones at your sensors, then you have the wrong pigtails in the wrong sensors, although i dont think thats it. A faulty crank sensor and/or wiring is what i would be very suspect of..

That is very very wrong. The 95/96 had the chrysler style plugs, if the plugs were updated then the wiring colors are different at the actual plug. Some early 97's had the chrysler plug as well. Using the wire colors is a good guideline but one must be careful not to jump to conclusions if the colors dont match. At this point i would want to see the wave pattern generated by the cam and crank sensor (you need a vantage and there is no way a multimeter will tell you anything other than there is activity or not). As well as an answer to the other things i mentioned above that you never commented on Mike. I suspect a problem with the cam circuit. The old sensor may have been damaged and swapping in another ECU may have damaged the new ECU. This is why i am so against just trying different parts. The fact that the Scanner flickers a No to cam signal concerns me. You might have a bad crank sensor. If the Crank sensor is throwing spikes in the wave pattern, the car may still start and run poorly. Your next question is to ask why would the cam sensor signal appear to flicker on the Scanner? My answer to that has already been stated and is detailed in the troubleshooter kart. The next thing i would also want to watch would be the 9v reference signal to the Cam and crank sensor. If the 9v signal is weak when a load from the sensor is applied, the sensor will relay a poor signal as well. Sensor timing could be a result of a bad sensor. If the cam or crank is reading signal but is relaying the signal with a delay, the ECU may not accept it. The signal may not be corrupted enough to cause the ECU to throw a code. Another thing to investigate is the loose cam magnet. While the magnet was loose, was the nipple that inserts into the Cam damaged to the point that the magnet is now "out of time?" This will cause the car to not start as well. Terry

I just swapped in a new crank sensor and that didnt work either. all the fuses and everything are fine!

this just DOES NOT make any fucking sense at all.

the nipples that insert into the cam are fine, they are not broken or anything at all. i pulled out the entire harness today at my shop and started removing all the coil around the wires and i guess i am just going to check every single wire from the ECU to the snesors harness.

i dont know what else to do...

the cam magnet was not REAL loose, it just had a tiny bit of play in it, maybe like 1/20" of play.

i am starting to think there could be a mechanical problem, but then again, my compession is fine, and timing is correct.

what the hell else could control spark!?

i have my 9v volt signal and 12volt signal while cranking to the coil!

im gonna kick something really hard, really soon if i dont figure this fucking thing out already!

Double check your timing. If it starts with out cam sensor pluged in it is using the crank sensor for the reference. So it will start but run like shit. It will smell like its loading up.

Originally posted by dmt111701
Double check your timing. If it starts with out cam sensor pluged in it is using the crank sensor for the reference. So it will start but run like shit. It will smell like its loading up.

I already mentioned again, it started w/ the crank sensor and indeed, ran like shit.

I also mentioned already that I did check my timing and its fine, along with my compression.

Man I really hope my car is not in the same boat as yours right now. I'm battling a no fire situation myself, and to me it seems to be my ignition switch...but we shall see. Good luck man.

http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=1030

Ok before you rip out the harness, look at the Schematics to the ECU, make sure all the ground wires have good connectivity to the ground (ohm the wires to ground) and make sure all the 12V+ feeds for the ecu have good 12v signal on them.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Ok before you rip out the harness, look at the Schematics to the ECU, make sure all the ground wires have good connectivity to the ground (ohm the wires to ground) and make sure all the 12V+ feeds for the ecu have good 12v signal on them. Terry

I already ripped them out, lol.

I found 3 small burn marks in a couple wires already, I dont know what they power/ground yet, but Hopefully I can get it fixed it tomorrow.

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Ok before you rip out the harness, look at the Schematics to the ECU, make sure all the ground wires have good connectivity to the ground (ohm the wires to ground) and make sure all the 12V+ feeds for the ecu have good 12v signal on them. Terry

Do you happen to know what wire colors are the +/- for the ECU?

I dont have a schematic handy...

Okay, Terry and I talked a little bit today on the phone and he told me something to try:

Hook a test light up to the 2 end terminals on the coilpack harness, and while cranking it should flash on and off.

Well, it didnt, so what does this indicate? That there is no power coming from the ECU to the Coilpack? If so, what would cause it?

This is soo fucking crazy!

Lets take a step back and veryify some things..

You are not getting spark on one or both coils? correct?
YOu ARE getting 12volts on the center wire of the coil connector during crank, correct?

Next is to verify the ECU trigger signals on the end wires. I like to use a led tester for this, you can get one from snap on, ect, that flash the led for each trigger pulse. Thats the easiest way to find out if the ECU is sending the trigger signals to the coilpack. Do this, and then go from there.

Originally posted by XtremeRS
Lets take a step back and veryify some things.. You are not getting spark on one or both coils? correct? YOu ARE getting 12volts on the center wire of the coil connector during crank, correct? Next is to verify the ECU trigger signals on the end wires. I like to use a led tester for this, you can get one from snap on, ect, that flash the led for each trigger pulse. Thats the easiest way to find out if the ECU is sending the trigger signals to the coilpack. Do this, and then go from there.

Correct, I am not getting spark on either side of the coil pack.

Quite frankly, I dont remember if I am getting 12v on the center wire of the connecter, I have ran SOOO many tests, I forget whats what, lol. I am going to start writing shit down.

I will check it again tomorrow and post it up around 9am if someone would so kindly check and give me an idea!

Also, I used a test light as the trigger pulse tester. I placed it on each of the ends of the coil pack connector and cranked the engine, and the light never flashed, never even got dim. This should really work the same as a led tester.


edit: you know what, I think I had my aligator clip on the - battery terminal instead of the + for this test for trigger...

what else can i do here guys!?

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST

Originally posted by XtremeRS Lets take a step back and veryify some things.. You are not getting spark on one or both coils? correct? YOu ARE getting 12volts on the center wire of the coil connector during crank, correct? Next is to verify the ECU trigger signals on the end wires. I like to use a led tester for this, you can get one from snap on, ect, that flash the led for each trigger pulse. Thats the easiest way to find out if the ECU is sending the trigger signals to the coilpack. Do this, and then go from there.

Correct, I am not getting spark on either side of the coil pack. Quite frankly, I dont remember if I am getting 12v on the center wire of the connecter, I have ran SOOO many tests, I forget whats what, lol. I am going to start writing shit down. I will check it again tomorrow and post it up around 9am if someone would so kindly check and give me an idea! Also, I used a test light as the trigger pulse tester. I placed it on each of the ends of the coil pack connector and cranked the engine, and the light never flashed, never even got dim. This should really work the same as a led tester. edit: you know what, I think I had my aligator clip on the - battery terminal instead of the + for this test for trigger... what else can i do here guys!?

so if the led does not trigger at each end while cranking, that means that the ECU is not sending the signal to it correct? if i am correct, what sympton would make the ECU not send that signal?

Broken/shorted wiring from the coilpack, the crank sensor, or the ECU. The crank sensor is the MAIN sensor for the ECU to figure out when to fire the coilpack..

Originally posted by XtremeRS
Broken/shorted wiring from the coilpack, the crank sensor, or the ECU. The crank sensor is the MAIN sensor for the ECU to figure out when to fire the coilpack..

okay i do have 12v going to the coik pack and my test stays on while cranking while checking the harness for led blinking, and does nothing on the other end of the harness, what does this conclude?

i hooked up our scanner again, and while cranking, i know have a consistant cam, crank and asd relay signal!

what the hell can i do here guys!?!?!?!?!?!?!

also have 12v going to the coil, but it seems as if the ecu is obviusly not sending an output to fire the coil....

what kind of test can i do to confirm this?

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
i hooked up our scanner again, and while cranking, i know have a consistant cam, crank and asd relay signal! what the hell can i do here guys!?!?!?!?!?!?! also have 12v going to the coil, but it seems as if the ecu is obviusly not sending an output to fire the coil.... what kind of test can i do to confirm this?

I just read this article again: http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=5&topic_id=85358&mesg_id=85358&listing_type=search

And he said that his oil pressure was obviuosly low and that was the cause.

I myself have noticed when I turn my key on, my oil pressure gauge doesnt move, even when cranking it does not move.

Could a bad Oil pressure sending unit tell the ECU not to fire because of the low oil pressure?

This is just a shot in the dark, but I wonder why my oi lpressure is not moving???

The ECU sees nothing related to oil pressure. The oil pressure sending unit on the back of the block only hooks straight to your gauge cluster in the dash. And its not really even a pressure sensor, more like a pressure switch. Too low of an oil pressure and it triggers the oil light in the dash. The ECU never sees this signal.

Originally posted by djtrickee
The ECU sees nothing related to oil pressure. The oil pressure sending unit on the back of the block only hooks straight to your gauge cluster in the dash. And its not really even a pressure sensor, more like a pressure switch. Too low of an oil pressure and it triggers the oil light in the dash. The ECU never sees this signal.

That is what I figured, but hell, it was a shot in the dark ya know.

Are there any mechanical problems besides the timing being wrong that cause no sparky?

I'm just going to throw this out there... but you have an MSD ignition box or stock or Crane ignition box?

Many, MANY members here as well as on other boards have had their MSD boxes completely fail and give identical results as to what you are experiencing... search for a thread by ETX or Madhatter210 to see what Im talking about.
You need to completely remove it and not just use the bypass jumper.

Originally posted by djtrickee
I'm just going to throw this out there... but you have an MSD ignition box or stock or Crane ignition box? Many, MANY members here as well as on other boards have had their MSD boxes completely fail and give identical results as to what you are experiencing... search for a thread by ETX or Madhatter210 to see what Im talking about. You need to completely remove it and not just use the bypass jumper.

The whole cran ignition was removed about a month ago for a new setup that was never installed.

I pulled the MSD coil out and tried one from a Talon that someone here out dealership traded in, and still nothing Chris.

What I need to find out is why it is only throwing out one spark every once and awhile out of the coil.....

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
What I need to find out is why it is only throwing out one spark every once and awhile out of the coil.....

Okay, now when cranking and watching the scanner, the CRANK and CAM signal both say YES, then CAM swaps to NO and then the CRANK swaps to NO also, and then both back to YES after a more seconds, what the fuck causes this? lol. I am slowly starting to pull my fucking hair out here!

Take your test light and probe the 12volt wire on the coilpack harness. Watch this light as you are cranking. It should remain steady lit. I dont know if you have tried this yet, but did you use a new ASD relay? Try jumping the relay socket if you have a flickering 12volt signal at the coilpack. Just because the scanner says its got ASD reading, doesnt mean the relay is sending out power. The scanner is just saying the ECU is sending the ASD ground signal to the relay. Also, your LED test on the trigger wires, will sometimes only flash when there is 12 volts on the center wire.

UPDATE:

YOu know i just thought of something while looking over the schematics.. Has your speedometer worked before? Any issues with it? There are 3 sensors that share the ECU 5 volt reference signal which is the yelllow wire, that goes to the crank, cam, and speed sensors. I've seen instances where the speed sensor can short out, and this sends the 5v ECU power signal to shut down during the short. Try this, unplug your speed sensor, and check the wireing, and then just leave it unplugged. Now try and crank the engine, and see what happens..This could be why your gettign intermitent cam and crank signals..Be VERY suspect of that yellow 5 volt wire. Check that wire by all those 3 sensors, and all the way back to the ECU. There is a junction for that yellow wire, not sure where it is, but one yellow comes out of the ECU, to a junction, which from there goes to each of those sensors. Even the smallest short to ground can cause this issue, or a small break in the wire. YOu want to test for 5 volts on the yelllow wire at the crank and cam sensors as well, DURING crank to verifiy an issue on the yellow wire.

Originally posted by XtremeRS
Take your test light and probe the 12volt wire on the coilpack harness. Watch this light as you are cranking. It should remain steady lit. I dont know if you have tried this yet, but did you use a new ASD relay? Try jumping the relay socket if you have a flickering 12volt signal at the coilpack. Just because the scanner says its got ASD reading, doesnt mean the relay is sending out power. The scanner is just saying the ECU is sending the ASD ground signal to the relay. Also, your LED test on the trigger wires, will sometimes only flash when there is 12 volts on the center wire. UPDATE: YOu know i just thought of something while looking over the schematics.. Has your speedometer worked before? Any issues with it? There are 3 sensors that share the ECU 5 volt reference signal which is the yelllow wire, that goes to the crank, cam, and speed sensors. I've seen instances where the speed sensor can short out, and this sends the 5v ECU power signal to shut down during the short. Try this, unplug your speed sensor, and check the wireing, and then just leave it unplugged. Now try and crank the engine, and see what happens..This could be why your gettign intermitent cam and crank signals..Be VERY suspect of that yellow 5 volt wire. Check that wire by all those 3 sensors, and all the way back to the ECU. There is a junction for that yellow wire, not sure where it is, but one yellow comes out of the ECU, to a junction, which from there goes to each of those sensors. Even the smallest short to ground can cause this issue, or a small break in the wire. YOu want to test for 5 volts on the yelllow wire at the crank and cam sensors as well, DURING crank to verifiy an issue on the yellow wire.

For the first paragraph you wrote:
I did indeed had the test light hooked up to the middle terminal while cranking, and it stays lit the whole time. With the key on, when I probe the wire, I hear the ASD relay clicking, and yes I replaced both the ASD relays already.

For the update:
I pulled the whole harness out and checked for breaks/shorts and found nothing. I will try to unplug that sensor and see what happens tomorrow. To my knowledge, I have not had any probs with the speedo sensor lately, but I was not paying attention to it really since all that hapened.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST

Originally posted by XtremeRS Take your test light and probe the 12volt wire on the coilpack harness. Watch this light as you are cranking. It should remain steady lit. I dont know if you have tried this yet, but did you use a new ASD relay? Try jumping the relay socket if you have a flickering 12volt signal at the coilpack. Just because the scanner says its got ASD reading, doesnt mean the relay is sending out power. The scanner is just saying the ECU is sending the ASD ground signal to the relay. Also, your LED test on the trigger wires, will sometimes only flash when there is 12 volts on the center wire. UPDATE: YOu know i just thought of something while looking over the schematics.. Has your speedometer worked before? Any issues with it? There are 3 sensors that share the ECU 5 volt reference signal which is the yelllow wire, that goes to the crank, cam, and speed sensors. I've seen instances where the speed sensor can short out, and this sends the 5v ECU power signal to shut down during the short. Try this, unplug your speed sensor, and check the wireing, and then just leave it unplugged. Now try and crank the engine, and see what happens..This could be why your gettign intermitent cam and crank signals..Be VERY suspect of that yellow 5 volt wire. Check that wire by all those 3 sensors, and all the way back to the ECU. There is a junction for that yellow wire, not sure where it is, but one yellow comes out of the ECU, to a junction, which from there goes to each of those sensors. Even the smallest short to ground can cause this issue, or a small break in the wire. YOu want to test for 5 volts on the yelllow wire at the crank and cam sensors as well, DURING crank to verifiy an issue on the yellow wire.

For the first paragraph you wrote: I did indeed had the test light hooked up to the middle terminal while cranking, and it stays lit the whole time. With the key on, when I probe the wire, I hear the ASD relay clicking, and yes I replaced both the ASD relays already. For the update: I pulled the whole harness out and checked for breaks/shorts and found nothing. I will try to unplug that sensor and see what happens tomorrow. To my knowledge, I have not had any probs with the speedo sensor lately, but I was not paying attention to it really since all that hapened.

Forgot to mention that while cranking and checking to the end points on the coil connector, the one stays lit and the other does nothing instead of a constant blinking like both should be doing.

What would make one stay lit and the other do nothing. According to the shitty ass schematic off of Alldata, each one of those end wires feeds the 2 sides of the coil pack...

what am i missing here? lol

Seriously Mike, try a known good ecu, this reeks like an ECU problem.

Someone around you must have a 98, no junkyard ECU's either.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Seriously Mike, try a known good ecu, this reeks like an ECU problem. Someone around you must have a 98, no junkyard ECU's either. Terry

Terry, I put my ECU into the Automatic Talon that I told you about that someone recently traded into out dealiership. I plugged it in, and the Talon started right up so my ECU must be fine, correct?

No more idea's :(

Okay, there is a harness that goes from the ECU and plugs into the long harness that goes down to the crank sensor, knock sensor etc. Its about a 8 wire connector I think.

Question is, I unplugged it and the side coming out of the ECU at the yellow 9v signal wire, I have 9v. Now, on the other side of the connector (going down to the crank sensor and shit behind the block, on that connector, I have 0 volts... Shouldnt there be 9v on that side of the connector too?????

edit: n/m, it would help for it to be plugged in...

someone help here, lol!!!

Did you verify that you have all he proper grounds and 12v feeds to the ECU?

Edit: Make sure the harness to the crak sensor is ok but also, connect your scanner up and see what the value on the TPS is. Make sure the car is not in Flood clear mode.


Terry

For some odd reason, I knew this was not an electrical problem.

I checked timing again and it was fine, so I decided, what the hell, pull the cam gears off.

What do you know, A BROKEN DOWELL PIN ON THE EXHAUST cam!

This was therefor throwing off the signal for the cam sensor!

Can the dowell be knocked out somehow and punched back into place? I see it doesnt go through the whole cam here.

This is a stock cam too, not the crane turbo's anymore...

Good deal, very misleading since the cam was still moving and giving signal yet not timed right.

For reference a 98 will start with no cam sensor, my 96 wont.

The dowel should be able to be removed by a machinest, it is possible for it to not go well and you might have to replace the cam.

For the price of a stock cam, just buy another good used one.

Terry

oh wow...I hope I don't end up goin down the same road as you did. I haven't had time at all lately with work and the kids to even touch my car, but damn I wanna fix the problem and install all these damn parts I've been stock piling...not to mention my squirt from Terry :thumbsup

congo rats on solving this doozy, you'll be back up in no time

Originally posted by XMasta19
congo rats

congo rats?

Originally posted by eclpsmoneypit95

Originally posted by XMasta19 congo rats

congo rats?

Yea, god damn congo rats ate through the dowel on the cam to begin with!

umm...yeah the congo rats!!!

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Good deal, very misleading since the cam was still moving and giving signal yet not timed right. For reference a 98 will start with no cam sensor, my 96 wont. The dowel should be able to be removed by a machinest, it is possible for it to not go well and you might have to replace the cam. For the price of a stock cam, just buy another good used one. Terry

Mike,

If you need a spare stocker, I have an extra of each camshaft I got with a head. It has some slight surface rust but I can clean that up for you. I have the cam caps too. And the gears if you need that too.

Let me know what you need.



-Nate
________________
-97 Avenger I4 5spd (R.I.P.)
-95 Eclipse GS 5spd
-Mods: Megan Header, Megan Cat-Back, Pacesetter High-Flow Cat, AEM V2, Fluidyne Radiator
All-Motor Buildup on the way

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
A BROKEN DOWELL PIN ON THE EXHAUST cam!

I have beeen following this thread, nice work tracking down the issue! That was a tricky one. I've heard a few other stories like this one and somehow The Suck that is that dowel pin comes up more often than not.

...take pics?

woah this was freaking fascinating. Total zebra - reminds me of some of the patient cases I hear about. Hope this thing cranks right up after the pin is replaced. You are going to feel so relieved, or end up hating your car forever now.

Sorry I didnt take any pics, I wish I would have, but I rushed it to the machine shop to get it fixed, trying to get it rolling to hit the track for the first this year on saturday night!

...good luck with that :thumbsup

I'm hoping my problem is just random burnt and melted wires from the damn egr :thumbsdown

Okay I got everything put back together today, had to put the Crane turbo cams back in cuz the machine shop couldnt save the stockers, but oh well. Anyway, I went to start it up and it just cranked again, but I could deffinately tell by the sound of it cranking that one of the cams is 180 out. I did the good old one up one down with the AEM cam gears, but one is obviously out of time.

My question is, how do I tell which cam is out? Is there a way to check or something?

When I rotated my 2 revolutions to check my timing marks, it rotated okay, no valves touching the pistons, but I am positive its out.

So anywho, does anyone know a way to check to see which cam is out, or should I just rotate one of the two cams 180 in?

pull the valve cover and look to see if both holes are facing up when at TDC.

Mike since your cran cms dont have the reference holes in them, take the stock cams or cam if you only have 1. You will see a 1/4" hole in the unfinished journal between cyl1 and cyl 2. When the #1 piston is at tdc, these holes point up perpendicular to the valve cover gasket surface. Looking at the cam/cams you have compare the dowel location in the aftermarket cams.

Terry

Mike,

If you still need the pair of stockers let me know. I also have the caps/gears for them. They are from a 95.

-Nate
________________
-97 Avenger I4 5spd (R.I.P.)
-95 Eclipse GS 5spd
-Mods: Megan Header, Megan Cat-Back, Pacesetter High-Flow Cat, AEM V2, Fluidyne Radiator
All-Motor Buildup on the way

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Mike since your cran cms dont have the reference holes in them, take the stock cams or cam if you only have 1. You will see a 1/4" hole in the unfinished journal between cyl1 and cyl 2. When the #1 piston is at tdc, these holes point up perpendicular to the valve cover gasket surface. Looking at the cam/cams you have compare the dowel location in the aftermarket cams. Terry

Terry, the dowel locations are the same on the Cranes.

So, there is a hole in each stock cam and they should both be facing towards the valve cover gasket then or the exhaust up and the intake down?

Those holes in the cams should be facing up on both cams. They're there for the tool designed to hold the cams in place when removing the bolts for the cam gears.

When at TDC, both holes (1 on each cam) should be facing upwards towards the valve cover.

K my intake cam is the off one then.

Just wanted to let everyone know that the green monster lives again. Fixed the cam today and she fired right up again :)

Thanks for all the help and support from everyone who contributed, this was a tough diagnosis, but it all worked out well!

Congrats Mike. WOW was that a tough one!

Glad you got it fixed :thumbsup


Brian