Hey all, for those wondering if going all motor is really worth it, you might like to read this message from Eric R. (reposted with his permission). I honestly don't think it's worth it, seeing as it cost 8k to keep up with a gs-t. It's cool to do it to be different, but is it really worth it? Feel free to post your opinions...

Eric R. (veteran 2gnt member, now has rx7)
>>>
In all honesty..it is great you love your car...I loved my NT also. I spent $8000 on building my own all motor monster. The BEST it could do was barely beat a stock turbo eclipse. It was very disappointing. So I went a bought another money pit. A TT RX7. It is very easy and rewarding to make a fast car faster...it is very humbling and disappointing to make a slow car faster. The best you will be able to do with an all motor eclipse is make it "quick", never fast. So long as you are ok with that then mod on and make that motor the best you can. Unless you put that motor on NOS and rev VERY high...you will NEVER break into the 13's. A low 14 sec time slip is all you will get and that is if you put a TON of money into the car...now that I see hindsight I should have made my NT nice looking and fun to drive and spent all that other money on a turbo 1G. With that $8000 I could have had that 1G in the 12's or lower.

Take it from me...I learned the hard way.

-Eric R.

MODS:
PERFORMANCE -
GST Exhaust w/ dual 2.5" DTM tips || AEM Cold Air Intake || EGR Bypass
|| CAT-bypass Test Pipe || Blue Nology wires || NGK Plugs || Mutiny
ported & polished head || Extrude Honed ported, & matched intake manifold || 9:1 compression, lightened JE pistons || Total Seal Rings || Apexi Super AFC || Hotshot header w/ matched exhaust ports || Custom Webcam (custom turbo grind) racing cams || Mutiny bored throttle body || Custom cold air pick-up || No PS or AC || 3-Angle Valve grind || Blue AEM Cam Gears || Custom Oil pump pressure raiser shim || Custom stainless Steel custom Crank oil scraper || ARP bottom end studs and nuts || ARP head stud conversion || Ceramic coated pistons, intake manifold, CC Chamber and valve faces || Knife Edged & lightened and micro-polished Crank || Custom spec Pauter racing rods w/ ARP bolts || External Moroso oil catch can || Titanium valve spring retainers || Custom Double valve springs || Custom copper head gasket || RC Engineering Balanced and Blue printed injectors || Custom poured solid front and rear motor mounts || High performance dry film lubricant applied to valve train, oil pump and bearing journals || Oversized, full floating H11 tool steel wrist pins || MSD DIS-2 ||

HANDLING -
16x8 14 Lb. RX7 rims || Front & rear camber kits || Eibach Sportline Springs || Front and Rear upper strut tower bars ||

APPEARANCE -
Carbon fiber shifter || Sassy Pedals || Carbon fiber dash kit || Clear front corner lenses || All underhood brackets are chromed, polished valve cover, polished intake manifold, polished throttle body, polished ECU, polished left motor mount, polished Moroso catch can || Cermachromed AEM intake piping || Blue wire harness coping || Blue engine block || Blue Fuel Rail || Chromed PS reservoir || Braided Steel lines with blue couplings everywhere || numerous other things that don't help my E.T.'s ||

AUDIO -
Alpine 3 disk CD deck || 10" Bazooka || Kenwood 75Wx2 & 45Wx4 amps || Full farad capacitor || Fujitsu Eclipse seperates in the doors || Fosgate mids in the dash & Alpine Separates in the back || Dynamat through out the car || Dynamat high temp cover under hood ||

MISC -
Autometer Ultra-lite Series Volt meter gauge, Oil Pressure Gauge, EGT Gauge, AF Ratio gauge, Auto meter micro shift light. || Fan relay bypass
|| PIAA 1200 Fog lights

Things to come:
Stage 4 HRC 20G turbo kit with FMIC. Haltech computer w/ 3bar MAP sensor.. 660cc Lucas injectors from RC Eng. Tokiko Illumina 4-Way adjustable shocks. Road Race Engineering front and rear sway bar. Road Race Engineering Lower strut tower bar. GSX big brake upgrade.

Goal is 25lb of boost on race gas, 450+Hp and 11 sec. Et's

I spent over 8 grand on my engine rebuild and I am lucky if I am around 200 HP @ the crank. Yes my car revs like a ferrari and sounds really nice but it has no power below 3500RPM and is hard to street unless I rev all the time. That is hard on a motor whether it is built for it or not. My point is this. I too once wanted a monster NA motor but it just isn't cost efective or streetable with our motor.

>>>

i agree.


"Proud to be, a 2gnt"


-mitsuman
AEM cold air intake
NGK plugs
motegi mr7 17'' on
yokohama A550v 235/45/17
sony xplod cdxm620
2 10'' audiobahn subs and
audiobahn amp

Wanted:
1. Star stage II(possibly the NER kit now)
2. lots more crap

coming very soon:
1. CF hood!! yyeeaa
2. 95-96 front end
mmaayybbeee 97-99

did this guy get a dyno? are you freakin serious that he barely pushed 200hp. I want some proof on this, how come he wasn't running higher compression pistons, anybody know?

If you knew Eric R., he was a genius about the 420a. He knew everything about it. I think he was planning to turbo later on, but never got to it, seeing as he spent so much on just building up the motor. I know he did almost all the labor himself too (I was going to pay him to replace my bent valves, but ended up going to RRE). I believe that it was probably around 200 hp at the crank. Which would be about 160 or so at the wheels. It doesn't seem like porting and other head work really helps that much. And he also said his idle was really bad so he had to constantly rev it...mine is kinda like that now, with the ported and milled head, so I think it's really not worth it...

I know that the 420A can hit 13's all motor in an eclipse and it will be done, I know Michael_97RS will do it, what ever it takes. I was going to but I have given up on the car. I know it can be done though.

Missing Car. . .
Contemplating Turbo. . . . .

http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/

Perf:
KYB AGX Struts
Neuspeed Sport Springs
5 Strut Bars (2 F/U, F/L, R/U, R/L)
Sprint Front Camber Kit
$15 Rear Camber Kit
Corbin's A/F Gauge
MSD DIS-2 Ignition System
Some Regrind Cams that need High Compression (which I don't have)
Ported Intake Manifold
Ported Throttle Body
Nameless Cold Air Intake with a K&N Filter
Custom 2 1/2 inch exhaust with Dual DTM Muffler
Empty Catalytic Convertor
Energy Suspension Motor Mount inserts
Hurricane_GS Short Shifter
Symborsky Shift Kit
Clutchmasters Stage 3 Modular
225/50/16inch Wheels and Tires


Audio:
Alpine CD Head Unit
Alpine Flex4 25W X 4 for Fronts and Rears
Alpine V-12 450W X 1 for Subs
Infinity Reference Series 5 1/4 and 1 inch tweeter component systems for fronts and rears
Blaupunkt 3 way 6x9's in the rears
3 MTX 5000 10" 12 ohm subs running 4 ohms mono

I think the point is if it's worth spending alot of $$$ for the results we getting out of the 420A. Some people want to be quick and some people want to be really quick and, well those people that want to be really quick and spending the money are not getting the results they should out of the all motor. It just weird that my friend with a damn old ass civic that probably was pumpin 95hp stock now is doing about 160hp with just some bolt-on and head work and the 420A with all the work and money that some people have put in to it might get an extra 50hp. I still love my rs but I also have the 1g AWD in the garage.

I've had a few e-mails back and forth with Eric R as well (who do you think has his extrude honed intake manifold now??? heh heh) and he does know what he is talking about. But, in terms of "is it worth it?" I'd have to say it depends on what your long term goals are.

I don't think you could ever have an all motor, STREETABLE (note: I said streetable), REALLY FAST, 2.0L car. The S2000 is for today's technology pushing the limits (240 hp from 2.0L, and it is shallow on the bottom end) and it is "only" a mid 14 sec car (I've seen them run, that's about what they do stock, most of my friends are faster than an S2000). With a small displacement engine once you get beyond that point the car isn't a streetable car anymore.

Now, if you had TONS of money, and dropped a high revving highly modded 420A in a tube frame drag racing chasis, it could be very fast and could be worth it, but it would become a drag racing only car like all of those "fast all motor hondas." If that's what you want then it is worth it.

I think the problem alot of people have is THEY DON'T SET THEIR GOALS OR PRIORITIES PROPERLY FROM THE OUTSET! What you have to do is know what you've already got in detail (know your engine and car, where improvements can be made and where you should leave things alone), it's potential (easy or hard to make fast? cheap to do or expensive?), and then MOST IMPORTANTLY know where you want to go with it.

You have to know that ANY small 4 cyl non turbo is only going to go so fast while still being streetable (if that's what you care about), and to go faster and still be streetable you need that turbo/supercharger/nitrous. That's why 1st gen DSMs are the wonderful cars they are, they can be bought cheap and modded easily and cheaply to go fast.

But what happens is people buy their cars wanting to run really fast and thinking they'll easily be able to run with Vettes with just a few mods, and it doesn't work like that. It is not an RX-7 or a 1st gen turbo DSM. It also doesn't help if you don't know what you are doing and mod the car the wrong way (like 18 inch heavy rims and tires while drag racing). I think all motor is fine, up to a point. That point is streetability. If it isn't streetable (you can use it as a daily driver) it is useless to me, but each person has to set their own priorities with their car.

I never intended to modify my car, but once I did decide to go with it, I was satisfied with the fact that a good but tough goal would be breaking into the 14's and still be streetable. I'm allright going 14's, I've got alot of years and learning ahead of me to run 12's 11's or whatever with my car later on or with something else. I've got more work to do to get to 14's, but 15.5's is damn good for what I've got on the car. It's all bolt ons, I haven't really done much to it, and the header doesn't help the 1/4 mile. The car is never going to be an all motor "monster" because I don't want it to be. If I get into the 14's with it and it's streetable I'll be happy with it as a non turbo. I have set my priorities with it.

What I'll do after that is either A. Put a turbo kit on it so it will be fast AND STILL STREETABLE, B. Keep it a 14 sec all motor daily driver and mod a turbo DSM (maybe a spyder GS-T, I always wanted a convertable :) ) or C. Keep it a 14 sec all motor daily driver and buy a Lancer EVO VII (they are coming over here at the end of 2002). But, I've got to finish with the goals I've already set before deciding on one of these three courses of action for the future. The thing is I'm thinking about what to do now so I can make a good choice down the road.

Once I decided to stick with my car in late 1999 I set my goals. My goals with my car are/were:

1. get into 15's (did that last year in 2000, gained alot of drag racing experience and learned alot of hard and valuable lessons in the process)
2. get a trophy at the shootout (did that this year, and I'll get one next year)
3. get the fastest time on the times page for NTs (also did that this year, after learning my lessons from last year)
4. get into 14's <--- That is what I have left to do. It will be the toughest challenge, but it will happen!

So, the point you should take away from this is, THINK LONG TERM. Think YEARS ahead! Yes, I said YEARS ahead into the future when you plan on modding your car. Set those goals and priorities (looks/speed/streetability) and you'll be happy when you achieve them. I've seen some turbo DSM owners thow all sorts of mods on their cars as fast as their checkbook can pay for them and they wern't happy with their 12 second cars because they didn't plan ahead or set any goals. You shouldn't be driven by what other people run for 1/4 mile times, you should plan your mods based on what YOU want to do and what YOU want your goals to be.

so porting/polishing the head isn't worth it? i was going to get that done plus turbo. it will make your idle bad? this guy that does it told me for a full race port it could make 50-70+hp. whats the deal?

Goals huh...
My new goals are...
1. build my engine
2. pay off my car
3. buy an evo
4. make the eclipse full drag

That seams like the only way to really enjoy the turbo on my car (since cali smog laws suck)

Wow....that's interesting to hear from Eric. I've talked to him several times about this very thing as well. But I do say that I will have to disagree.

You can take a 420A and make it streetable AND run 13s all motor. It's all about technology and using it to your advantage.

Porting and polishing the cylinder head is great, but to be able to take advantage of the POTENTIAL for increased air flow, you have to be able to let more air in and out. That means that you have to have a set of cams that match the port so that you can have the velocity you need into and out of the head. Anyone can port a cylinder head to where it looks like it will be powerful. But without cams, it's not really worth it.

Compression at this point will also make a big difference in the efficiency of the air charge you put in the head. If you were to go with a full port, and big cams, but left the compression at 9.6:1 you would get more power and feel it, but nothing like the power that would come out of a 12.5:1 motor.

Is 12.5:1 compression streetable? Yes...very. You just have to have an ignition system that can handle retarding the timing a little. Your gas mileage will go down. But that's the price you would have to pay.

The potential for the 420A motor in a streetable form is over 220whp. I've talked to a couple of motor builders and people that just know what they are doing. They think that if someone was able to build and all motor competitor in Summit Import or IDRC, that the Honda boys would have a serious fight on their hands. I don't have that type of money. I really wish I did.

Believe what you will, but there's a lot of room for growth in the 420A all motor department. It's basically that the Honda/Acura motors are more plentiful and are money makers.

actually neon's have been "madd" representing lately, turbo and all motor, i put something about this up on the pits a while back but nobody responded, i thought nobody cared :|

My friends daily driven 420a4-door neon runs 12.90's. the car weighs 2200 lbs, but even so, make that power in an eclipse and you WILL SEE 13's! the eclipse weighs what, 2800-2900 lbs bone stock?

Makes right around 200hp at the wheels, dyno proven.

2.4L block from the stratus, 4 t/b setup, race header, cams, stand-alone.
stock block, and mild MILD head work. runs slicks at the track

I think the 420a is allready pretty much as good as its gonna get without turbo. Honestly if you look at the 420a, its got a pretty good intake system, a good exhaust system, etc etc etc. Its built to be the best it can be non turbo, so even opening up the exhaust, intake, pulleys, etc really arent gonna get you much since its built the way it is. When you mod an engine, all it really comes to is how much air and how much fuel you can get into the engine, but if the headers, exhaust, intake is all as big as it can be (or almost as big as it can be for best output) then you wont get much from aftermarket. Atleast thats the way I look at it. The 420a has potential if you turbo it, if not, I'd say forget it. I agree with the above statement.

IMO, just turbo it!

somebody tell me some things about porting/polishing. i was going to get it done soon. full race, i asked some questions above. most people tell me it's worth it and i'll tell a good difference, as i stated above. thanks

I also have talked to Eric R about this way back in the day, and I have to agree with him to a point. It's all about compatability. You have choose your parts wisely. You can't just port and bore the head as big as you want. You have to do in proportion to the other engine components. That's why many people know how to Honda headwork. Honda special mechanics have been working on these motors for so long that they have been fiddling around what is the best bore, port, etc way of doing it. The good aspect for them is that since all Honda engines are mostly the same, it can be carried over to other B or H series engines. People just need to research the 420A better and realize that one can't just put cams on a stock mototr with just bolt ons and expect 20hp. Furthermore, one can't just port a head and expect the tantalizing power gain.

All motor -

convert to 2.4l - I think you will find you can build a streetable 13sec all motor car with that.

Yes Eric knows this motor better than most. But I do disagree with him. Look at how many Neon's are running in the 13's Will it cost me a lot of money? Hell yes. Will it be here soon? Hell no. Especially since I have yet to fin a permanent job.

Porting polishing and cams are a must as is high compression. The problem with porting our head is it needs to be done by someone whoknows the motor. We have a head that is well designed from the factory. And without cams you probably will not see a great improvement if any in performance. But with quad TBs cam porting polishing etc, it would be nice to break into the 13's... might not happen but I will be fun trying. Fully built and with a programmable ECU I hope to have a good showing down the road at a future shootout.


"The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the scabbard,
The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow,
And the cleanest cut is the one withheld."

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All Motor Beast in the Making

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, Hooker 4-1 Stepped Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, SS Clutch Line, NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17. Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors and Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: Ported/Polished Intake Manifold, Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads

Ya I totally agree that it "can" be done, but not very easily and not without a lot of money. I sure do hope some nt eclipses go all motor and break 14's at least. I just wanted people to realize what Eric R. went through, and to only go this route if you are truly dedicated and have the money. He spent 8 grand just to keep up with a gs-t. Also, neons are a lot lighter, and one I saw stripped out with drag radials at california speedway ran 14's only. He had full race headers, race cams, head work, standalone ecu, and a bunch of other stuff (pretty much every mod possible). BTW, their were also a couple neons with just an intake and exhaust running 15.5, smoking me and Sonicyan all day long. I think weight is a key issue here. So a full street-trim eclipse would have a hard time doing 13's I think.

When it comes to getting into the 14's I'm only 0.58 seconds away. And I have only bolt ons on my car, and I have a number of bolt ons left to do.

I know I will get there, but I'm not sure if I will do it by the end of the next racing season, since these next 0.58 will be a big step.

And, yes we are too heavy compared to a neon but the neon in my opinion, besides the weight advantage, is not a very good car. I drove one for a week down in florida and I couldn't believe how cheap the whole car was. It handled well (the auto tranny sucked bad and it got horrible gas mileage) but I though I would get killed in a 20 mph crash in the thing, and everything about the interior and the body was done as cheaply as possible. I wouldn't buy one unless I only cared about racing it.

Also, I can already keep pace with some auto tranny stock turbos (if the driver is only average).

One more advantage for the Neons is gearing. The trans is the same and trans gearing is the same but, overall tire diameter is smnaller so effectively a higher gear ratio. So when I do go far enough to need some drag radials I will go with a smaller diameter and even that out a bit.

"The fastest draw is when the sword never leaves the scabbard,
The strongest way to block, is never to provoke a blow,
And the cleanest cut is the one withheld."

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All Motor Beast in the Making

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, Hooker 4-1 Stepped Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, SS Clutch Line, NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17. Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors and Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: Ported/Polished Intake Manifold, Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads

WHAHAHAT??? You mean to tell me that the lady that kept beating me just had a friggin' intake and exhaust??? PAKIN SIYET!!! O well, yup, I've been smoked thrice by a neon in one day. Raced that 14 sec neon and the lady with 15's. I did bad on the first one with her though, since I missed third. Improved on the second one though. Hopefully next time at the track, I might have an UDP. Hmmmmm, maybe some NOS...HAAAAAARRRRYYYYYY!!! I need NOS!!!

And about the thing about going all-motor, yeah it might be possible with a lot of money which I don't have. So might as well make the car look good and at the same time a little quick. My only wish is that I could at least do a little more to the car before I get into med school, which might be a year from now. After that, no more fun...:-(

Comming from someone who had a pretty modified Integra LS (NA), the money to hp ratio isn't worth it. If you have a goal to do something that hasn't been done and don't want to use Forced Induction or NOS, then who is to say it's impossible....It can be done...People said imports would never go so fast...and they just keep getting quicker and quicker. But look forward to spending a lot of money for minimal gains. It's hard to extract power out of a NA engine and takes real good tunning knowlege. My friend has bundles of cash in his Type R trying different parts etc...and he is just dynoing over 200 at the wheels. He also started off with (156whp)..where as you guys are staring off with 116 ish. My Integra was making 150's at the wheels up from the stock 114whp, I had quite a bit of work done to it. Was it worth it...I was proud of it that's about all I can say. All I can say is good luck. I repsect the effort.

Derek

Mike, the Neons are all over the place. Neons seem to be like Hondas and most other cars, most of them aren't that fast but some of them haul ass.

Since my car runs 15.58 and with me in it weighs (at the track) 2890 lbs or so, using the HP calculator on the dsm.org site I'm supposedly running 151 wheel HP (that's from the 1/4 mile time). Assuming 15% drivetrain losses that is 177 crank HP. Using MPH it is a little higher than I'm willing to buy. According to my MPH I'm running 155 wheel HP or 182 crank HP, and using my fastest mph ever (88.9 mph) that would be 158 wheel hp or 186 crank hp.

Those numbers could be completely off, I could be pushing only 130 at the wheels for all I know but it seems consistant with my times and runs against other cars. I can out-accelerate (side by side in the 1/4 mile and I pulled on him) an impreza 2.5 RS and keep pace with an SVT contour, so about 175 crank HP or so seems about right for the same power to weight ratio as the SVT contour (me 2730lbs/175hp=15.6lbs/hp contour 3068lbs/200hp=15.34lbs/hp). That seems pretty good for just bolt-ons so I think with extensive work (and the time and money to go with it) that there is good potential to get that HP figure higher.

Just get high compression pistons, overbore the cylinder walls one or two thousandths and use dykes rings to reduce friction losses :) maybe someday I'll try that.

Hehe maybe you just have a freak 2gnt Todd. I think it's really fast considering the mods you have. Just like a guy I know has a Spyder GS-T that can run 14.1 consistently with JUST an intake, no exhaust or anything. Some cars come faster than others from the factory...I think the guys in Normal, Illinois were happy when they made your car.

Didn't know about that Hp calculator until now. I got 135 hp with my ET and 132 with my trap speed. So what's that at the crank if there was 15% loss? (Sorry, can't do math, finals...toxic...)

135 hp with a 15% loss would be 135/.85 = 158.8. (I think that's a bit high estimate with just an intake and exhaust though).

For me, I got:
Using the ET method, I come up with 113 horsepower
Using the Speed method, I come up with 118 horsepower
If I assume 25% loss with my auto, I get 118/.75=157 hp. That means we both have the same power, even though I have intake, headers, exhaust, cam gears, ported head, milled head, underdrive pulley. Hoepfully the calculator is not very accurate with auto's...Or wait, nevermind IT IS accurate, because I dyno'd at a max of 115 hp at the wheels a while ago. I just remembered...

Nope, my car's engine isn't one of those "special" engines that makes tons of power. I think I had the tuning on my SAFC just about right for that run. (can't be sure, I was guessing as to what setting I should use) It also helped that I had fixed the wiring on it.

I do have my intake manifold extrude honed. On a ford SVT contour it added somewhere between 8-11 hp (don't remember the exact number) and that was from engine dyno work done at Ford. If extrude honing the intake ddn't add a significant amount of power for the SVT contour, Ford wouldn't have paid the money to have it done to a production vehicle.

The most important thing about that day was the weather. It was cold (50-55 deg or so) and foggy with mist in the air. For some reason I think having a cold, misty/foggy day (super high humidity) adds tons of power. We all know colder days are better (I always feel my car get more powerful very late at night when I'm heading back fromthe drag strip) but I think that high humidity helps too.

My best guess, it makes the air "heavier" and the more mass you can get flowing through the engine the more power you will make.

Also, I thin having a "mist" in the air ends up, when it is sucked into your nice cold air intake, the mist/moisture ends up doing some kind of expansion (it's in a lower pressure area, the intake path) and thus when it expands it has a cooling effect.

But, those are just theories :)

I 100% agree with Eric's comment. Waay back when eric was building up his 420a, i spoke to him on a daily basis. He helped me pick all the parts i needed as I was rebuilding my 420a as well to be all-motor. I"ve spent over 8k on parts/labor/etc and i didnt even get to a 200hp goal. I ran all kinds of compression, you name it...15:1, 13:1, 12:1, 10:1. Full race head port, race cams, race valve work, etc etc etc. The key missing here is that our ECU has a VERY cheap fuel mapping when you start modifying things. It got to the point that i just said hell with it, and now i'm turbo'ed for less than 3 grand and i'm way over the 200hp range, and my first run with leaking intake system was 14.7 sec on the 1/4 mile @ 5psi. That's with STREET tires, all kinds of shit in the trunk, and with Momo racer rims (if you know these rims, you know they are about 50lbs with tires...each!).

The money-to-power ratio for All motor is horrible. A turbo setup? much better.

Wow sounds like you and Eric both did a lot of the same things. I really regret porting and milling my head, because now my idle is messed up. It's fine somtimes, but other times will drop to 500 rpm when I slow to a stop, and sometimes stall. I think it's an ECU problem, because every time I reset the ECU, the car runs PERFECT with no idle problems for at least a few days. Then it gets progressively worse. Do you have any suggestions from your experience? Oh I have an auto btw.

Porting your head should NOT cause your problems. Check your MAP sensor...it caused me the same problems you've seen

Kiku, I remember you telling us about your all motor build up in the past. It's too bad you didn't have much luck.

When you say our ECU has a very cheap fuel mapping, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean it does not advance our timing at all, or that it does not supply the appropriate amount of extra fuel needed for the extra mods.

If the computer is limiting us from proper tuning, then it is something we should figure out how to overcome.

If it's fuel, then I'd think an SAFC should help there (which a bunch of people now use). The turbo gusy use the SAFC to get things to work right, and they do work with our cars, so I don't see why the SAFC can't correct for a shortage or excess of fuel and allow for proper tuning.

If it's timing, then there is the ITC, but I don't know yet if it will actually work with out cars, I'm still trying to find this out.

Another "trick" that MIGHT be possible for timing is adjusting the cam angle sensor. I'm posting another topic about that one :)

Sorry and yes I should have clarified it, i was in a hurry to post =)

What I mean is that our fuel mapping over different RPM ranges are definitively not optimal, as we all know for a fact. The combination of changing the fuel mapping (via safc or other methods) and modifying the ignition is the key in making an all-motor run. I played a lot with fuel mapping, but what really held me back was the ignition. When our engines run high compression, it diesels a lot (also because of the fuel mapping being incorrect). That on itself gives off a big chain of events such as timing being retarted because of the dieseling, possible knock, etc.

Maybe I could have extracted a lot of power of the 1,600$+ Gude cylinder head package, maybe not. It just got very frustrating as ignition, fuel, air flow, compression, and a lot more or other variables all come into play WAY more than going turbo.

I tip my hat to anyone who pushes 200hp on our 420a's. But I also have bills to pay. Like i said before, the end goal everyone here has is to go faster. I rather do it via turbo for the potential, versus all-motor =/

And one tip....STAY away from copper head gaskets! ;)

Without reading everybody elses post I'm gonna give my opinion uninfluenced and then see if its in line with everyone else.

1rst: it doesn't cost $8K to barely beat a stock GST. He did alot more than necessary for normal aspiration and on top of that was running lower compression in anticipation of boosting. If a neon can run 12s and 13s with the only two things being different is its lighter and has a 8000rpm redline ecu available than 14s should be easy on our car. Lets face it, we havent done shit to our cars NA to make them all that fast. The fastest guys here have a few bolt ons. Theres no reason a simple intake, header, exhaust, pulley and well ported head shouldn't turn low 15s or 14s with a good driver and tires. We have no one with cams or ported heads or reduced weight with any times.

2nd: I bet you your life you give me $8K to spend on a 420a naturally aspirated and I will whip a GST by more than a little bit. If your only objective is to go fast NA then you wouldn't spend all the money where he spent it. Give me $3000 and I will barely beat a stock GST if the money is spent in the right places.

3rd: are cars arent light weights. You dont see honda owners using accords as their NA choice of carsl. You want a fast NA mitsubishi you should do a mirage, most of the shit that makes cars go fast NA wont come off any shelf anyway so it doesn't really matter all that much what you start with. If SOHC civics can run 11s, 12s, 13s and 14s a mirage can do the same thing. You cant buy cams or headers overt he shelf but the fastest cars dont use alot of off the shelf shit either. Scott Mohlers 11sec neon, Don howards 12sec neon, len Ayala's 9 sec neon all have custom fabbed intake manifolds, TB and shit we've yet attempted.

4th: If a 14second NA car isn't worth it I just threw my money away on this VR6 VW cause thats about as far as I think I'll take it for now (although it wont take much for it to reach that hehe).

I was just talking about all of this yesterday with my 4G63 friends.

I've only got bolt ons (and I still have more to go) and I've hit 15.5's so I think there is alot of room for improvement. No one has run our cars with SERIOUS mods yet. I haven't got cams, port work, still not tuned right, and I'm full weight. If I remember correctly Eric R. never got a track time with his car modded the way it was.

And, as one turbo guy told me yesterday, I already can match some stock turbo DSMs. (I guess stock auto tranny 2nd gen AWDs would be a good example, they are the heaviest of all DSMs, and not as much power hits the ground.) Forget about $3K, NOT including my 1/4 mile useless headers and not including AGX shocks (they help launches but aren't a power mod) my power mods cost me less than $1200.

We were also discussing yesterday that the fast all-motor hondas don't make much more than 200 hp or so. They are ALL gutted CRX's or other light models. Those guys usually weigh in at 1600-1800 lbs! For the same HP to weight ratio, I'd need to run at least 325 hp, most likely more. For them it isn't how much power they can make, it's how good of a HP to weight ratio can they run. They'll lighten a 2100 lbs car, do a B18 motor swap, buy the highest performance off the shelf parts, and have tons of money dumped into the engine. There is no such thing as a cheap all motor honda that is fast.

>There is no such thing as a cheap all motor honda that is fast.


Buy a $1000 Crx, Buy a $1500 B18 engine and tranny.

$2500 and hitting 13's



Missing Car. . .
Contemplating Turbo. . . . .

http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/

Perf:
KYB AGX Struts
Neuspeed Sport Springs
5 Strut Bars (2 F/U, F/L, R/U, R/L)
Sprint Front Camber Kit
$15 Rear Camber Kit
Corbin's A/F Gauge
MSD DIS-2 Ignition System
Some Regrind Cams that need High Compression (which I don't have)
Ported Intake Manifold
Ported Throttle Body
Nameless Cold Air Intake with a K&N Filter
Custom 2 1/2 inch exhaust with Dual DTM Muffler
Empty Catalytic Convertor
Energy Suspension Motor Mount inserts
Hurricane_GS Short Shifter
Symborsky Shift Kit
Clutchmasters Stage 3 Modular
225/50/16inch Wheels and Tires


Audio:
Alpine CD Head Unit
Alpine Flex4 25W X 4 for Fronts and Rears
Alpine V-12 450W X 1 for Subs
Infinity Reference Series 5 1/4 and 1 inch tweeter component systems for fronts and rears
Blaupunkt 3 way 6x9's in the rears
3 MTX 5000 10" 12 ohm subs running 4 ohms mono

But speaking in general, doesn't it typically take about 10 hp to drop your quarter mile time at most 0.2 seconds? That means if you are at 16.0, you need at least 50 more hp to hit 15.0. That makes sense since turbos with 210 hp run around 15.0 depending on driver. To hit 14's, let's say you need around 240 hp at the flywheel. How would you add 100 hp at the flywheel for less than 5k? I think both Kiku and Eric R. did a LOT of experimentation, and both spent 8k each. I think at a certain point, a car reaches a limit that is very hard to overcome without boost. Either way, going all motor WILL cost more than a turbo assuming you don't blow the motor. The point of my post was to allow others to realize that if they want most hp/dollar, all motor is not worth it. But a lot of others who have the money and dedication should go for all motor. It's sad that Eric R. and Kiku both gave up on their all motor projects, which leads me to believe that it is REALLY hard to get over 200 hp at the wheels all motor.

Well, by FAST I didn't mean 13's, I meant the 11-12 second jobs or faster. I always seem to under-estimate how little a used CRX costs, and how little they weigh.

And, I think your initial estimate, for a car about our weight, going from 16.0 to 15.0 would need about 50 HP, 5 hp for a tenth. But, we wouldn't need 240 at the flywheel to hit 14's. Our cars are a bit lighter than a GS-T, so it would need a little LESS than 210 flywheel HP. If you get our cars to 200 that should do it. 240 to the flywheel should be mid 14's.

I'd guess for me, right now at 15.5's, I'd need another 25-30 hp.

If I can't squeeze another 25 HP from my car, then I'm doing something wrong.