Any idea why this would happen ? Is is suppose to be ground or a 12v ? I connected a test light to the pin and the other end to a positive on my battery and it lights up

Yes the center pin is suppossed to be a a complete circuit to ground. Ok it works like this:

(L pin ) (center pin) (R pin )
(2-3cyl) ( 12v coil ) (1-4cyl)

If you don't know how a coil works, it builds power between discharges. In this set up the left pin (closest to the front of the car) recieves a signal from the ecm to tell it when to fire cyl 2 and 3, while the right pin (closest to the Intake manifold) recieves a signal for when to fire 1 and 4 the center pin energizes the 2 secondary coils located inside of your coil pack.

Basically what you did was check continuity of your primary coil, however this doesn't tell you if your secondaries are good.

Any one else have any input about this incase I'm wrong about how this specific coil pack works (I'm used to GM) and I'd like to know if I'm wrong so I can learn

To knownledge the center pin on the coil is suppose to be a positive. and then it sends a ground to fire. If i plug in a light to a the center pin and the positive on my battery it will light up meaning that the coil pack wire is a ground and its not suppose to be

Yes the center pin is positive. The Center Pin on the pigtail going to the coil is a 12v positive (when the ignition is on). The coil pack it self is grounded to the valve cover and the coil (center pin) recieves it's ground from there so if you run a test light from your positive battery terminal to the coil center pin you are completing a circuit which is why the test light is lighting.

The coil DOES NOT ground through the valve cover. This is incorrect info and should not be given

The coil pack is two sets of independent coils with a primary and secondary side, like a transformer. The coil received 12+ via the ASD relay through the center pin. The center pin "Y" joints off the each primary coil. The ECU uses a coil driver that sends the 12- pulse to the coil to energize the primary side of the respective coil. When the coil reaches the dwell point, the spark is produced via the secondary coils as the ECU driver opens the primary circuit.


If testing the Harness, the center pin should have a 12+ signal with the key on. If testing the center pin on the coil with the harness disconnected, you should see a negative signal due to the ECU driver being closed.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
The coil DOES NOT ground through the valve cover. This is incorrect info and should not be given The coil pack is two sets of independent coils with a primary and secondary side, like a transformer. The coil received 12+ via the ASD relay through the center pin. The center pin "Y" joints off the each primary coil. The ECU uses a coil driver that sends the 12- pulse to the coil to energize the primary side of the respective coil. When the coil reaches the dwell point, the spark is produced via the secondary coils as the ECU driver opens the primary circuit. If testing the Harness, the center pin should have a 12+ signal with the key on. If testing the center pin on the coil with the harness disconnected, you should see a negative signal due to the ECU driver being closed. Terry

Terry, I stand corrected I miss read my schematic. So I referenced with my 97-99 wiring manual the grounding on the coil pack is for the secondaries not the primary coils I apologize for the mis info.

I still dont understand if the connector should show a ground. The test light is pluged in the center on the connector and to a positive therefore it looks like its sending a ground instead of a positive. Am I right to say that it shouldnt be like this ? If it should what would cause this. Would the wire show a ground if the ECU disables spark for whatever reason ? Ive spent 20 hours redoing all the wires in my car and now its something stupid. If I cant figure it out its gonna be parted out this week

Ok I have my testing procedures in front of me right now. you need a multimeter to test the coil. But from what my info says you should NOT have a circuit to ground through any of the 3 pins.

Primary Coil Resistance
(1) Disconnect the electrical connector from the coil pack.
(2) Measure the primary resistance of each coil. At the coil,
connect an ohmmeter between the B+ pin and the pin
corresponding to the cylinders in question.
Standard value: 0.51-0.61 ohms R
(3) Replace the coil pack if resistance is not within the standard
value.

Secondary Coil Resistance
(1) Remove spark plug cables from the secondary towers
of the coil.
(2) Measure the secondary resistance of the coil *between
the towers of each individual coil.
Standard value: 11.5-13.5k ohms R
(3) Replace the coil pack if resistance is not within the standard
value.

So from what I can tell your coil pack is shot if you have a complete circuit to ground through the center pin.

Yea but the coil pack isnt plugged in when I test it. Im going right from the connector. The connector is showing a ground without even being plugged in the coil. It seems like the ECU is sending a ground instead of a positive

Shadow...you really are mixed up in more ways than 1.


Mike, if your getting a ground through the center pin on the coil connector then you have something wired wrong or a short. When the ASD relay shuts down it doesnt ground. I would say your going to need to trace the wire back to the Relay. should be too hard if you remove the battery. What have you changed or repaired since you had the fire under your hood?

Edit: I see you spliced in a 96 harness. There isnt a chance you miswired the Coil and speed sensor is there? If you did then you might have this problem. check all the wires in the coil harness plug for voltage and tell me what you have. Not a test light but actual voltage if any. A test light will just tell you if the wires are crossed. Voltage will tell you if you have the correct signal wire.


Terry

So the wire goes all the way back to the relay on the firewall ? I guess thats where my problem is unless the source for the relay is also a ground. Thanks Star Turbo Talon, I feel like im gonna get somewhere now. Ill trace the wire back. Any you say it wont show a ground when its shut off ? Also is there any chance the the ECU could be F'ed and sending the wrong current ? O and no the speed harness wasnt switched cause I did that before, On the 96 it also doesnt let you cause the connector is just slightly differant.

Mike the ECU signal switches the ASD relay with a neg trigger. the Relay should have 2 12+ wires, an ECU wire, and the Accry wire. As you trace the wire back to the ASD you may find many other wires tapping off of it, this is normal and how other assrys in the engien compartment receive power. If the ECU sends the wrong signal to the ASD (which it cannot physically do) then the relay wont switch over causing no voltage at all on the wire you are testing. You still will not get a ground.

Make sure that the wires on the Coil harness plug are not wires incorrectly; meaning, the center is an ECU trigger and the left or right have 12+.

You are testing the plug with the ignition on in the run position correct? Either way you should not have a ground signal.

Terry

I'm guessing a short to ground somewhere is causing that problem. I have a schematic of the ignition system of our cars but I'm still pretty new here and I don't know how to pots pics.

I'm guessing a short to ground somewhere is causing that problem. I have a schematic of the ignition system of our cars but I'm still pretty new here and I don't know how to post pics.

I also wired a 12V constant stright to the coil pack from my battery and it still didnt work. Does the power have to come from the relay ?

NO 12+ can come straight from the battery, the relay just turns the 12+ source off and on. Did you test for spark or is the car just not starting. Are you sure you have the 96 harness in correctly?

Are you getting spark? Fuel/injector pulse? do you hear the fuel pump prime? My first suspicicion is the 96 harness being wired in correctly. but the above questions will be your best start.

Terry

I tested for spark as well. Im certain the harness was wired correctly cause most of it was connector. I spliced maybe a total of 10 wires to matching color codes. Most of it was connectors that started from the interior going through the pass side firewall. Wouldnt running a 12V from the battery be the same as a relay sending a 12V ?

Mike listen to terry he is the only reply that makes sense. The black wire with the red stripe should have 12v when the key is in the run position. Simple as that. Also, dont continue to use your afro engineering skills! Get the correct tools to test everything either a test light or a volt meter, not a fucking led. Make sure you didnt forget any grounds on the harness and check the two relays to see if they are getting power and proper grounds.

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Mike since you spliced in at the firewall, did you verify on a schematic that both years had the same wire colors for each wire destination. It is very possible the yellow with green strip is a different wire for each year. Note: wire color example is just that, an example.

Since you used a 96 harness you are using a 96 ECU correct? 96 and 98 had different ECU connectors tot he best of my knowledge and the wireing going into the ECU was slightly different. Did you verify all this or did you just splice the harness in?

If you just spliced the harness in you are looking at a cluster Fu$%. We will need to start testing power at every sensor and tracing wiring.

To test just the coil i will tell you to run your 12+ jumper to the center pin and trace the left and right signal wires to the ECU. Make sure they match the correct Pin on the ECU that goes to each respective trigger.

Also locate all the power wires that go into the ECU and the ECU plug, make sure each one has 12+. next check all ground wires at the ECU harness plug and make sure you have a good grounds.

Do you have injector pulse?
Do you have the Fuel pump priming when you turn the car on?


Here is a kick in the ass.....since you spliced at the firewall, did you notice that you could have just disconnected the plugs under the radio to remove the harness instead of cutting the wires? OOPPS


Terry

Im sorry I might of made it vague but I did go right through the firewall. The whole loom was pulled out and all the connectors were unplugged under the radio. All the connectors went in. The only thing that was spliced inside was the relay that came from that whole harness. The fuel pump is priming and I have fuel pressure. A 96 ECU was used and non of the wires were spliced for the ECU. Here is a list of everything spliced


Relay under radio comming from the passanger side harness
Coolant sensor
O2 sensor
Air temp sensor
The injector and Rear harness was spliced together into my 98 harness. All color codes matched.
Thats all I spliced from the top of my head.
Everything else was a connector and I checked the connectors to see if they will match color codes on the interior harness. Everything matches up.

Talking to a few people I realized that a relay can send a ground if not activated. The relay might not be activating because of Crank sensor could be blown.

Anyone else have ideas ? Terry and Paul thanks for your help.

Im going home from work with a sick multimeter so I just gotta know where to start hacking.

Mike bottom line: the relay can not send a ground i dont care if you beg it to. The people that are teling you this have the wrong relay in mind and do not need to be giving you garbage info. If the crank sensor is bad then thats just the crank sensor. the crank sensor does not connect to the ASD at all.

Ok you have fuel pump which is good, i have a better idea of your splicing ect.

take your injector harness plug and test for 12+ with the key on. If you have 12+ there then the ASD relay is switching over.

If your crank sensor is bad then you wont have spark or injectors. same can go for cam sensor. Unplug the cam sensor and see if you have 9 volts on one of the wires from the harness plug. I cant remember which wire position it is in the plug. you will have a ground wire, a 9v+, and the ecu signal. Use a testlight. if you dont have the 9v then your cam and crank signal will not be operating and therefore no fire!

You cant test the Cam or crank without a digital scope like the snap-on vantage. All you can do with your tools is make sure the sensors are getting the proper voltage and ground.

do you have access to a snap-on scanner?

Terry

I have an OBD scanner for a laptop.

Heres what im doing tomorrow
Check the CAS and CPS harness for voltage.
Trace the coilpack wire all the way to the relay on the firewall too see if its shorted. I also want to see if the source wire for the relay is a positive or ground.

Does all this sound good ?

yes sounds good. see if the laptop scanner you have displays cam and crank signal. this can be a yes/no field. The scanning software you have would also need to live scan while you are cranking.

If all wiring tests good at the cam and crank sensors. Disconnect cam sensor and crank the car over with the scanner connected. see if the scanner "sees" crank signal. now plug in the cam sensor and unplug the crank and test again looking for the cam signal. if you have signal on both then the sensors and wiring should be fine.

Reason you unplug one while testing the other is because one sensor can make the other appear to be bad.

Trace the wire from the ECU to the ignition triggers and make sure they are wired correctly to the ECU and make sure the ECU has power to all the 12+ wires and good grounds.

Terry

I know for a fact that the scanner wont show crank or cam signals. I can test the connectors to see if anything is going through them. The constant wire that comes out of the the coil pack, does this go staight to the relay on the firewall ? I just wanted to see if that wire shorts on the way to the relay cause its gotta be be grounding somehwere if the relay itself doesnt ground it.

Yes the wire will go back to the relay and tap off to other things as well. that same 12+ wire feeds anythign under the hood that reqs 12+.

Terry

If it goes to everything else under the hood wouldnt a few other sensors fail and cause a CEL ?

HMMn i see where you are going with this. In theory it would be possible if the ASD is not switching that you are getting a ground feedback through the other assy connected to the 12v+ wire that the ASD relay feeds. It would be possible. However the ground is not comming from the relay, it would be due to the 12+ wire "Y" joints and other assys.

Your Friends were tryig to tell you the ground can still come from the relay which was the point I was going after.

You can manually jumper the ASD relay, if there is a short you will blow a fuse.

This still isnt your problem though. If the relay is not switching you wont start. If you dont have power too and from the ECU the car wont start. you need to check everything discussed.
Terry

The ecu is turning on though.

Here is my theory on why its a ground.


1. The relay shoots a ground when its off and its off cause the CrPS

2. The wire comming out of the relay is shorting

3. The wire going into the relay is shorted and it just bridges and shoots a ground.


I also have a CEL for Evap code so maybe the Evap harness has a ground too instead of a positive.

Im going to unplug the relay and see if the coil harness still shows ground. If it does then it is shorted before the relay.


I checked volts on the CrPS and CAS and it all works out fine but whos to say the CrPS isnt messed up.

Are you testing this with the key just turned to the ON position? If this is the case, then it may be possible to see a ground on the center coilpack pin. The ECU, i do believe, switches off the ASD relay after the initial "prime" of the engine, just like the fuel pump relay. So after a few seconds of your key being turned on, then the 12v power from the center pin of the coilpack will go away. If the ECU is continually grounding the trigger wires with this situation, then that ground will go right through the coilpack primaries and show ground on the center pin. Now, during "crank" of the key, you should have 12v on the center pin of the coilpack, and pulsating grounds on the outer trigger wires. Do NOT use a 12v test light on the trigger wires!!! It could be possible to short out the ignition driver in the ecu from the load of a test light...not sure on that, but i would not do it. Use an LED test light. I use these all the time, and its really easy to see the trigger signals from the ECU, as well as power and ground signals.

But if you are getting ground on the center pin during cranking, then something is def not right.

Yes when I test it the key is on but I tested it without plugging it into the coil pack itself, I just tested the harness and it showed ground.

Edit: Nevermind. I am tired of repeating myself and noone listening. Good luck to you.

Originally posted by brokenrodguy
The ecu is turning on though. Here is my theory on why its a ground. 1. The relay shoots a ground when its off and its off cause the CrPS

It woudl still send power to the coil just not fire it.

2. The wire comming out of the relay is shorting

You would blow a fuse

3. The wire going into the relay is shorted and it just bridges and shoots a ground.

You would blow a fuse

I also have a CEL for Evap code so maybe the Evap harness has a ground too instead of a positive. Im going to unplug the relay and see if the coil harness still shows ground. If it does then it is shorted before the relay. I checked volts on the CrPS and CAS and it all works out fine but whos to say the CrPS isnt messed up.

best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph(no traction)
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Alright people, when it comes to electrical, I know what I'm talking about :) I do this for a living hehe.. BUT just to give you some back up info, I just used my LED test light on the 97 talon I just got, since it runs great and its totally stock.

The ADS realay DOES swicth off power after the prime sequence of a few seconds. I just tested the center 12v power wire on the coilpack. Key from off to "on" switches on 12 volts power, then after a few seconds, power goes away(asd relay turns off) and center wire goes to GROUND. I show GROUND on all 3 wires at the coilpack in this situation. THis means that ground is prob coming from the ECU drivers through the outer trigger wires. I didnt unplug the connector from the coilpack to verify where exactly the grouund was cominng from, but either way is doesnt matter. You NEED To test in the "crank" position, or keep turning the key from off to on within a few seconds to keep power and the ASD realy switching on. If you do not have power from the ASD relay, or find no power on the center pin of the coilpack connector, then you need to find out why. Start tracing wires. Check fuses, ect. If you do have power in the crank position, you then need to test if you are getting the ground trigger signals on the 2 outer wires at the coilpack. If you are not, then either the ECU is not sending them, or you have a wireing problem. The eCU will not send those triggers unless it sees the signals from the cam and crank sensors as well. Check those to be sure those have power during crank, and that those are sending the pulsating ground signals as well. All of this can easily be seen with a bi-color LED Test light.

my 97 or 96 never switch the asd off after a few seconds. next time your over matt i will prove it.

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
my 97 or 96 never switch the asd off after a few seconds. next time your over matt i will prove it. Terry

Just sayin man, i just tested it on the talon and thats what its doing :) Now that I think about it, when i did the MS install on my eclipse, i used the ASD relay to power up my coilpack like normal. Others used a regular switched relay that constantly sent power to the coilpack. They came upon the issue of the ignitor getting really hot. It was doing that because it was constantly sending power to the coilpack, while the MS keeps the ignition outputs grounded(LED's always on) when the key is just in the on position, engine not running. I never ran upon that issue, since the ASD relay switches off after a few seconds of being in the ON position, engine not running. Just saying what I know, and just tested :)

EDIT:

My curiosity got the better of me, and tested it AGAIN. Key from OFF to ACC, center coil wire goes directly go GROUND. Key from ACC to ON, wire goes to POSITIVE for ONE SECOND, then BACK to GROUND. Key to CRANK, goes back to positive voltage. I then unplugged the connector from the coilpack, and ONLY the center pin shows ground after the prime sequence is done after that one second. I show NO grounds on the ECU trigger wires. I can hear and feel the ASD relay switching off and on as well. I tested that by unplugging the fuel pump relay. And yes, i know which is which :) Just food for thought...

I just unplugged the relay and tested the wire and its still a ground. I used an actual multimeter this time. Red on positive for the battery and black on the middle pin of the harness created 12 volts.

XtremeRS, Can you unplug the harness and leave the key on the "on" position and tell me if its a ground ?

Originally posted by brokenrodguy
XtremeRS, Can you unplug the harness and leave the key on the "on" position and tell me if its a ground ?

Shows ground, ONLY on the center pin. It DOES show power for one second after key is turned to the ON position, no crank. It will show power again during crank.

Originally posted by brokenrodguy
I just unplugged the relay and tested the wire and its still a ground. I used an actual multimeter this time. Red on positive for the battery and black on the middle pin of the harness created 12 volts.

Plug in your relay, and plug into the coilpack. Do you have power on the center wire when you first turn the key to the "ON" position for one second? ASD relay switches off after one second in in on position, if the engine was not started or cranked. To test this with a multimeter, put your meters black wire on a good ground, and positive on the center pin wire of the coilpack. If the coilpack harness is plugged in or not, you will still see this power for one second on the harness center wire. If not ,then you need to find out if your ASD relay is turning on, or if you have power coming into, and out of the ASD relay itself. Its safe to use a test light on the center wire. Test light lead to ground, and test probe end to the cetner wire, it should light up for one second.

You have to remember too, that the ASD relay doesnt just power up the coilpack. It sends power to other sensors on the engine, and also more importantly, the o2 sensor's heaters. I'm going to bet that the ground that shows on the ASD relay output wire, is coming from the ground side of the 02 sensor heaters. I show a ground on the ASD wire even with the key in the OFF position. The o2 heaters are just simple coils, and ground will travel though them right to the positive side, the ASD relay output side. This is why showing a ground on the ASD realy output wire with motor off, key on, is not a valid way to test. Either test in that first second of key on, or have someone crank the enigne over and test the power wire at that time. A multimeter may not react fast enough to read that power in that short one second time frame, which is why a LED or bulb test light will be better in this instance.

Ok I did a continuence test with my multimeter which has a .005 second reaction time. A continuence test sees if both wires on the meter are the same polarity therefore showing that the connection is "continuing" and it beeps. I plugged in the center pin and the positive wire and no beep. Center and ground and it beeped no matter if i just turned the key to on or left it on "on"

Originally posted by brokenrodguy
Ok I did a continuence test with my multimeter which has a .005 second reaction time. A continuence test sees if both wires on the meter are the same polarity therefore showing that the connection is "continuing" and it beeps. I plugged in the center pin and the positive wire and no beep. Center and ground and it beeped no matter if i just turned the key to on or left it on "on"

Then it sounds as if you are not getting any power on the coilpack center wire. You need to find out a few things. Have you checked ALL the fuses in the engine bay fuse box? If all are good, then continue onto the ASD relay on the firwall, driver side. You will either have 2 or 3 relays there, 3 for auto trans, 2 for manual trans. If 2 relays, its the relay plug that is colored grey(the connector that actually plugs into the relay), and is farthest from the driver fender. The relay closest to the fender is the fuel pump relay. If you unplug the ASD relay, the socket will have a black/red wire(same color as the coilpack center wire), as this is the relay's power output wire. From this relay, the black/red goes to a distribution block somewhere, not sure of exact location, but this distro block sends power to other sensors and compontes on the engine, including the coilpack. Now take a closer look at the relay socket's wires.

red/white- this is the ECU trigger signal to switch the ASD realy on.
The ECU sends a GROUND to this wire, for that one second
prime, and during "crank" of the key.
red/black & black/white- this is the power feed and also the positive
feed to the relay's coil. You MUST see power on these 2
wires, again, during on and crank. If not, then check your
fuses!
black red- relay power output to sensors/coilpack

Conduct tests on these wires to verify they are getting the proper signals and power. You have checked the fuses right?? If you have power coming out of the black/red(relay plugged in), and not at the coilpack, then its a wiring issue. If not any power,try a new relay, or check to see if you have power on the red/black and black/white wires.

Awesome thanks for your help. I will do this in the morning. If all turns out to be ok then I will also jump the wire and test the coil.

I got 12V positive on the center pin during cranking and 2 second "on" position. So the coil is getting power but still no spark. Crank position sensor ?


It only shows 12V after resetting my ECU. After trying to crank one time the ECU disables the relay.

Just wanted to update. All my wiring is complete after 25 hours. It ended up being a Crank sensor that cause it not to spark. Thank to all those who helped. And a special thanks to extreme97nt for beinh a helpful local 2gnt member. Cant wait to see his piece running