check it out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEON-2-0-DOHC-TURBO-CUSTOM-kit-like-no-other-420A-R-T_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQitemZ7992898889QQrdZ1

It's on a neon, but that setup looks like it'd work.

Discuss

everything except for that chinese turbo that will come unglued.

It runs like a "bad out of hell". Maybe I'll place a bid...

Why are the "4" indiviual throttle bodies mounted on the exhaust side?

Isnt that the timing belt on the left hand side? Probably couldnt make that big log of a thing fit. or do neons just flow that way...

Also how is he opening each supposed throttle body? it looks like just some kinda tubular manifold in actuality.

Idunno, im too scared to ask the guy, maybe ill just buy it and put a 4g63-t engine in my 2gnt and it'll prolly work with no fabrication.

Originally posted by midnitetill678
Why are the "4" indiviual throttle bodies mounted on the exhaust side? Isnt that the timing belt on the left hand side? Probably couldnt make that big log of a thing fit. or do neons just flow that way... Also how is he opening each supposed throttle body? it looks like just some kinda tubular manifold in actuality. Idunno, im too scared to ask the guy, maybe ill just buy it and put a 4g63-t engine in my 2gnt and it'll prolly work with no fabrication.

that is the intake side on a neon

each TB is linked with a shaft.

no way that would fit on our intake side... and why does it seem that ALL of the super custom, one of a kind, projcts that "work awesome" and "run great" always wind up on ebay with something else being broken....causing the driver to "regretably" have to sell said awesome custom item...?

That is definitely freakin ghetto. Place is about an hour away though, maybe I can check it out.

Originally posted by dsmmyth
That is definitely freakin ghetto. Place is about an hour away though, maybe I can check it out.

Lol. These ^^^ n3wbie posts always crack me up.

That thing is far from ghetto and the concept of a individual throttle body setup is friggin sweet. There have been numerous attempts around here but I don't know of anyone that has successfuly mated them to our cars. I would love to play with that more. Using GSXR 600 or 750 throttlebodies. mmmmmhmm.

Originally posted by djtrickee

Originally posted by dsmmyth That is definitely freakin ghetto. Place is about an hour away though, maybe I can check it out.

Lol. These ^^^ n3wbie posts always crack me up. That thing is far from ghetto and the concept of a individual throttle body setup is friggin sweet. There have been numerous attempts around here but I don't know of anyone that has successfuly mated them to our cars. I would love to play with that more. Using GSXR 600 or 750 throttlebodies. mmmmmhmm.

Next time I go out to see Eddy Fierro, I'll ask him if I can share a couple pictures of his QTB set up with 2GNT. It's fairly simple-looking. Four identical TBs (I think for a GSXR), all bolted together nice and clean. I don't see any reason why a similar set-up to Eddy's wouldn't work in a 2GNT. Intake filtration might be a bit on the tricky side, but I imagine you can score some small K&Ns to mount directly to the inlets. It's pretty damn cool. :thumbsup

oops

Originally posted by tim97rs
no way that would fit on our intake side... and why does it seem that ALL of the super custom, one of a kind, projcts that "work awesome" and "run great" always wind up on ebay with something else being broken....causing the driver to "regretably" have to sell said awesome custom item...?

Yes it would, well not that exact setup but .....I did a mock up of this not to long ago. You can't use the upper manifold and the feed(intake tube) tube sits on top of them. And like said kinda, the throttle shaft has cams so each gets the exact same feed and each is tuned to produce the needed results for each cyclinder. In all honesty besides the intial setup and tuning its actually a sweet ass setup that I wish I had the time and money to play with when I started doing the homework on it.Tuning wise, its something you will always have to tune and make constant adjustments on.

heh that definately wouldn't fit on our cars. Maybe with some modification but bleh...

I wonder why neon peepz don't go for superchargers. Its on the side our turbo is on O_o'

Originally posted by DR1665
It's fairly simple-looking. Four identical TBs (I think for a GSXR), all bolted together nice and clean. I don't see any reason why a similar set-up to Eddy's wouldn't work in a 2GNT.

in theory yes, just as bolting a turbo on is "in theroy" fairly simple... however, when you take into account things like our ECU looking at TPS, IAC for daily running, and that you have to tune each TB and make sure each is allowing the same amount of air into the cylinders, you start getting into very tricky tuning territory. it would not easy, despite how it looks....hence the reason its been tried before and not succeed on withour motors...

Originally posted by tim97rs

Originally posted by DR1665 It's fairly simple-looking. Four identical TBs (I think for a GSXR), all bolted together nice and clean. I don't see any reason why a similar set-up to Eddy's wouldn't work in a 2GNT.

in theory yes, just as bolting a turbo on is "in theroy" fairly simple... however, when you take into account things like our ECU looking at TPS, IAC for daily running, and that you have to tune each TB and make sure each is allowing the same amount of air into the cylinders, you start getting into very tricky tuning territory. it would not easy, despite how it looks....hence the reason its been tried before and not succeed on withour motors...

but... when you take our evil to all hell stock ecu out of the equation things seem to get a little simpler. If your using a standalone i.e. megasquirt, you can configure the TPS to whatever you want. The IAC would be completely out of the equation.. just use a fast idle solenoid (or one per runner). I know i'm still *overly simplifing things. Compare the ability of this working on a daily driven 2gnt with stock ECU (bastard) to a full track 2gnt with no stock ecu present, we have two totally different scenarios. Given the later scenario a full quad tb set up is MUCH more feasible.

Originally posted by totaleklipse97

Originally posted by tim97rs

Originally posted by DR1665 It's fairly simple-looking. Four identical TBs (I think for a GSXR), all bolted together nice and clean. I don't see any reason why a similar set-up to Eddy's wouldn't work in a 2GNT.

in theory yes, just as bolting a turbo on is "in theroy" fairly simple... however, when you take into account things like our ECU looking at TPS, IAC for daily running, and that you have to tune each TB and make sure each is allowing the same amount of air into the cylinders, you start getting into very tricky tuning territory. it would not easy, despite how it looks....hence the reason its been tried before and not succeed on withour motors...

but... when you take our evil to all hell stock ecu out of the equation things seem to get a little simpler. If your using a standalone i.e. megasquirt, you can configure the TPS to whatever you want. The IAC would be completely out of the equation.. just use a fast idle solenoid (or one per runner). I know i'm still *overly simplifing things. Compare the ability of this working on a daily driven 2gnt with stock ECU (bastard) to a full track 2gnt with no stock ecu present, we have two totally different scenarios. Given the later scenario a full quad tb set up is MUCH more feasible.

agreed! i like the idea of a quad set-up...i'd like to see it get done.

I don't know, but I love the 4 throttle bodies on my R6. Hook that shit up to a car with slide stops in the throttle body and I guarantee you won't have traction through all 5 gears....in a turbo car of course.

Originally posted by tim97rs
agreed! i like the idea of a quad set-up...i'd like to see it get done.

While I know that Eddy is running MSnEDIS on the Neon right now (although reverted back to stock for emissions testing at the moment), he has had the QTB set up running inthe past and he said it was fairly easy to do. He's got a 420A Neon, so maybe the issues we anticipate are easier to deal with when the intake is on the front of the car. LOL

Still, it's a very sweet idea and his set up looks beautiful. I have to get back together with him later this month, so I'll try and get some pics then for everyone.

Theres lots of good info already on 2gnt on this subject hence what sparked my interest awhile ago.........

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=set_threaded_mode&forum=32&page=&topic_id=888&prev_page=show_mesg

Wouldn't a setup like the model in the last post result in starvation on the cylinders after the first? Maybe not starvation but I would think a deffinate decrease in flow across the other 3? Maybe not in a forced induction setup but I don't see it working well N/A. But I am willing to bet by the people I see in this thread none are looking for a N/A setup like this anyway.

heh...that pic looks familar. :P

since I've posted that pic I put very little work into that setup...the 2.4 swap has been consumming all of my time, money and energy.

But but air starvation theroy was adressed by redesigning the upper plenum and increasing the size by about 150% and included "velocity" stacks. Even though I think the previous version was adaquate. I found a generanl rule of thumb was x percent of the engine displacement was adaquate for the upper plenum. Which the first design met. I don't remember what that percented % is and I have that page bookmarked at work. I'll post it up tommorrow. I don't think the bigger plenum will hurt...it'll just take up more space. There are several ppl around the board that have this as a back burner project but nobody has taken it very seriously lately. There was a setup that was about 90% complete sold in the forsale section but I don't know whatever happened with it.

I don't know if I'll ever run mine. But I still plan on getting it completed...someday, maybe this winter I'll tincker with it again. I don't know how much further I'm going to take my car. The 2.4 is killing me and I'll need to take a break from major projects and spending. Maybe someone with a MSnS running will buy it and see what it really can doo....Brian...Aaron...any takers? :P

edit

heres a mock up of the new upper





I'll probably do somthing with the end so it "funnels" more into the last runner.

Well i think if someone is serious about this, make a mockup out of styrofoam, for the runners and the upper plenium. Make a mold using this mock up and lay in fiberglass or some other material that is very heat resistant.
I think a short runner design would be best suited, incorporating the tb's into the short runner with basically a velocity stack attatched to each tb that feeds into the larger plenium. Not sure, but i think unless your forced induction 4x 30mm tb's maybe quite overkill and actually lose air velocity. I look at the design of the magnus intake manifold where the upper plenium is actually "slanted" shall i say, to increase air velocity in the last runner, and the velocity stacks are on the end of the runner inside of the plenium. I wish i didn't suck at drawing, cause the idea is soo clear in my head.

Here's that reference I mentioned in that last post.


Plenum Volume

There is no simple answer to the needed plenum volume for a given application or rpm range. The good thing about plenum volume is that there is a pretty wide range that it can be and still be effective, so general rules work well. Again the major concerns are with supplying enough air, but with not so great a volume that the throttle response suffers.

For a tuned plenum and intake pipe the following guidelines, from Grape Ape Racing can be used. For engines operating in the 5000-6000 rpm rage. For a four cylinder 50-60% works well. If a boost is desired in a higher rpm range, closer 7000-7500 rpm, the plenum will need to be 10-15% smaller. The plenum size of a Helmholtz resonator may go against the typical plenum size rules, but the rules change when the resonator is being used. The whole Idea of a plenum is to allow the gases to slow down and gain density. The Helmholtz plenum makes a dense charge by used of pressure waves, in the same way tuned port intake runners work. This plenum sizing method only applies to engines that use tuned intake pipe. Using the tuned plenum and intake pipe would suggest a plenum volume of approximately 300cc.

The alternative specifications are for a system with no tuned intake pipe. This is probably more appropriate to the restricted air flow problem. Here a general rule of thumb is to provide an intake plenum with one to two times the engine displacement in order to provide a large amount of available. The volume of air contained in the plenum acts as a low pass filter (capacitor) between the engine and the restrictor, smoothing the flow through the restrictor. Otherwise, without a plenum, the engine would choke the air through the restrictor with each intake stroke of a piston. Using this method would suggest a plenum of 1.2 litres.



http://www.eng.ed.ac.uk/~jchick/Y5/thesis/FormulaStudent/public_html/pt7.htm

Considering that the plenuim will more than likely be assembled(welded) in two pieces, I think the addition of a few small diverter fins maybe an inch high starting from the front (Intake port) and working up the plenium wall till the back is reached would allow all 4 tb's to recieve an equal amount of airflow, kind of giving the chamber a vortex.

Then again if a little prep was done prior and if there really was an issue, you could always add 1 mm to each consecutive tb in the series. Giving them a heavier volume of "pull" to outflow or compensate for the one prior.
tb1 tb2 tb3 tb4
30mm 31mm 32mm 33mm
Rather than just adjusting the linkage making sure that when wot was reached all tb's were really at wot rather than already being open further to accomodate airflow starvation.

I think the only real key issue which has been addressed is making sure that when at "wot" the plenuim will flow enough volume.

And just a very rough paper tape example: our current plenium has a mass volume of 104.blah blah and we know we can run a 70mm tb just opening up the inlet and still get optimum flow, so if we wanted to flow 120mm worth of tb's figure we would need to add another 74.blah blah to the chamber giving the final plenium 178.blah of volume. Making the chamber roughly 12.in in circumfrence a radius of 2.2in and a length of 11.6in.
And for real thats just a very half ass'd measurment but it gives you the idea on how much bigger in therory based on using 30.?mm tb's the plenium should be.

Now me personally, that giant obx intake would supply more than enough volume for 4 small tb's though I'm not sure of its chamber volume but its huge. So even a square setup like that on top would surfice and we all know it fits.

I am not sure that you would really be able to think of the area upwind of the throttle bodies as a plenum, though. A big part of what makes a plenum a plenum is the fact that it is a big volume that shares pressure with the runners. In other words, with the throttles closed, the area behind the throttle will be heavily in vacuum, and the area in front of the throttle will be just about atmospheric.

The formula does not apply to this. I think that a bigger plenum would be more apt to fill each cylinder equally, though, at least on a turbocharged application (duh, what else is there?).

Originally posted by Ducking_Fumbass
...at least on a turbocharged application (duh, what else is there?).

quoted for truth :P

but really...if this was for a N/A aplication there would be no need for a plenum. Like Driggs said up there ^^^ just get four small cone filters...done.

Originally posted by micyek

Originally posted by Ducking_Fumbass ...at least on a turbocharged application (duh, what else is there?).

quoted for truth :P but really...if this was for a N/A aplication there would be no need for a plenum. Like Driggs said up there ^^^ just get four small cone filters...done.

lol indeed that simplifies everything, this is what happens when you sit at your inlaws after the shootout for a week with nothing to do.....I pray for some kind of stimulation besides well nothing.

I have a set of TB's at my house and the more I read this, the more I want to do it. There are a few ways of getting around such things as a MAP & TPS. My busa has a TPS & a MAP on it. Inside the busa's airbox are velocity stacks that extend roughly 2" into the box. Now, if we could make a similar airbox with the air filter made into it, like the bike, and use a WRX-style hood, you could have a true cold-air/ram-air intake that goes directly into the airbox and through the TB's.

Busa TB setup

Ihave r1 and suzuki throttlebodies I am using for my project. It will deffinatly be over the winter thoguh. Have to get it going normal first.

best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph(no traction)
www.cnnmotorsports.com