poo! my breather filter on my intake is all oily! i have total seal rings and have removed the PCV valve as you are supposed to do with TS rings, and i still have an oil moist filter. Did my TS's not "totaly" seal? its been at least 3-4k miles so far if not a bit more...

I could be wrong but i think its a normal thing. Its time for a catchcan.

I did total seal rings on my first build, and I have to say that they are really not all that great. In fact they suck!
You really need that PCV in operation. It removes all the vapors from you crankcase etc. to prevent them from possibly igniting and blowing your motor up.
A catch can would be a good idea.

If you do hook the PCV back up, expect to put about 1 qt. of oil in for about every 2 tanks of gas, because those total seal rings are going to suck oil in through the valve cover, via the PCV.

I would sudgest putting a different set of rings in. Total seal are more for a strickly race application, not very streetable, thats for sure.

i'm glad i didn't use those. :P

i do have a catch can connected to the place where the PVC would connect to on the intake cover, but i have a little breather filter on the barb where the line would have connected to the intake tubing.

I have total seals and I get hella blow by... its forcing oil out from all around the valve cover gasket... my catchcan never really gets much oil in it. though a little does get in there and then the air that comes out of the hose blows the oil around (Ghetto Catch can that looks like one of those cups you piss in for urine samples) and you can see blue smoke coming out of the breather at idle also. and if i remove the dipstick a good amount of air blows out that...
also really bad compression test (110-110-95-110) but i still smoke all the import and alot of the domestic competition around here so ima keep running it until it stops.

Do a compression test and see where you're at? :shrug

Total seals are meant for a N/A application.

best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph(no traction)
www.cnnmotorsports.com

Originally posted by extreme97nt
Total seals are meant for a N/A application. best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph(no traction) www.cnnmotorsports.com

well thats what hahn sent me with my low compression pistons and stage 2 turbo kit...

ive heard people complaining about total seals and blow-by for around 2 years now. irony at its finest.

I'll chime in for another "used totalseals, hate them" vote.

Mine always had blowby. :shrug The only way to minimize blowby on them imo is to do a very gentle breakin, with no boost.


...and then pray the totalseal ring doesnt spin around and become a very weak conventional ring.

maybe gary howell needs to mnake an informative post on the correct way to use total seals, or take those out of the rebuild kits.
seems he is the only one that likes them/knows how to install them correctly

my friend chris has them in his eclipse and he has little, to no blow-by....so...hmm

maybe its your engine builder?

Yea, they have to be installed properly. I've got total seals, and have no blow by. They work great for me :shrug

well how finiky is the "installed correctly" cause i followed the manufacturers instructions and stagered the openings all the way around, and placed them in the correct order, so i dont now how much more correct they could have been....unless theres a trick or a secret i didn't know about...

I have the same total seal rings, although i'm not boosted yet... its looking as though mine were installed correctly as there is very little to no blowby from the breather i put on

pic of engine with breathers


vid of breather with engine idling after abit of driving very little if any blowbye
http://www.teampocketrocket.com/car/breather.MPG

I have since rigged up my own homemade GHETTO catchcan from a tylenol bottle (gonna paint it all black) and afew barb connectors and PCV hose.

pic of engine with catchcan


pic of inside bottle after a 20min drive


pic of lid to bottle which comes off making emptying and viewing contents easy


Anyone think i'll have any heat issues with where it is placed?


i'm gonna keep an eye on it for the first few weeks to make sure it is not getting too hot to the point of starting to melt, should be ok back there. Worst comes to worst I'll invest in a real catchcan for about $100can.

Originally posted by bubsy12
I have the same total seal rings, although i'm not boosted yet... I have since rigged up my own homemade GHETTO catchcan from a tylenol bottle (gonna paint it all black) and afew barb connectors and PCV hose.

You are correct on the catch can idea why spend 100$ when you can get a decent one for like 25$. FYI your tylenol bottle will melt under hot oil that WILL come out when you get the turbo on. I know I tried it. Did not work. I'm sure you could make a better alternitive out of nice PVC pipe from home depot. Would work the same.

as for your no blowby right now. I NEVER got blowby when I was N/A. Add the turbo you will get it.

Originally posted by bubsy12
I have the same total seal rings, although i'm not boosted yet... its looking as though mine were installed correctly as there is very little to no blowby from the breather i put on pic of engine with breathers vid of breather with engine idling after abit of driving very little if any blowbye I have since rigged up my own homemade GHETTO catchcan from a tylenol bottle (gonna paint it all black) and afew barb connectors and PCV hose. pic of engine with catchcan
pic of inside bottle after a 20min drive pic of lid to bottle which comes off making emptying and viewing contents easy Anyone think i'll have any heat issues with where it is placed? i'm gonna keep an eye on it for the first few weeks to make sure it is not getting too hot to the point of starting to melt, should be ok back there. Worst comes to worst I'll invest in a real catchcan for about $100can.

so that was a normal amount of blow by? i could make out some smoke... mine is just a little more than that...

I would say that your rings were not fitted correctly then. I recommend switching them immediately, you don't want to pressurize your crankcase at all, and in your case, you are pressurizing the shit out of it...

Tim, just get a catch can and be done with it. All turbo cars get blow by. Nothing to be worried about unless its like a quart everytime you boost. Check your compression as well.

The trick to avoiding blowby on an engine with totalseal rings is to:
1) Run no or low boost.
2) Never detonate. Ever.

The totalseals have no mechanism to prevent the "totalseal" ring from spinning around and becoming a weak 2-piece conventional ring. Every 420a I've torn back apart due to failure had one or more rings spun around so the rings lined up to become a conventional ring. How does this happen? Detonation rattles the piston until the compression and/or crankcase pressures are able to escape past the gap in the ring.

A very gentle no-boost breakin will help the rings stay put long enough to seat somewhat, but the middle "totalseal" rings will never seat because they are so thin that they flex inwards, and there is no gap to create a groove.

I've personally tried using EXACTLY the gap specified by totalseal, a wider gap, Gary Howell's recommended gap, and a narrower gap. All four failed to prevent blowby when exposed to 12+ psi and/or minor detonation for more than a month or two of daily driving. All four had at least one spun middle ring, the ones with larger gaps had more rings spun around, and the narrowest gap broke a ring.

My latest idea is to run a slightly larger ring gap, and put tiny amounts of red loctite on the two totalseal rings to seal them together, but still allow them to float in the piston groove. But I'll never get to try it because I'm going to just buy the ring recommeded by the piston manufacturer from now on.

hey tim, the PCV is still a seriously important part and you need to leave it intact. even if that means its a different 'style' it still needs to be there to evacuate the crankcase pressure, or else you'll just go pressurizing the oil gallys in the block and in the head and blowing oil out.

check out the moroso crankcase evac system, run the pcv and breather into a catch can and then the outlet to the evac system. the exhasut will suck out the crankcase pressure.

i think people concern themselves to much with the force on TOP of the piston (combustion chamber side) and dont think of the force the piston has when it moves towards the crank.

i installed my mr gasket crankcase evac system just the other day in fact, and im seriously impressed at the way my car sounds and deals with blow by oil. i had my breather dumping oil right by my trans for the longest time because i didnt even understand the whole concept of how the PCV system works in a internal combustion engine...

check out the way a typical turbo (stock turbo) car has its PCV setup. its usually a lot different than ours. like an rx-7 for a prime example.

anyway, you may have blow-by...and thats more or less normal...but that pressured gas needs some place to go, and right now its cloggin up the filter and causing a mess.

a compression test will tell you the shape of your rings, so i doubt you're going to need to re-ring it really if the compression is solid.

but the fact of the matter is, EVERY ring has blow-by. maybe less than some, but there is still a gap in the ring for combustion to move by...so that increases the crankcase pressure and you gotta do something about that not just have it running into a catch can or something, it needs some sort of suction...(either from the intake to the turbo, or the exhaust)

anyway im ranting, so i'll shush, but good luck. im just really stoked on my evac system now, and happy to have a very functional PCV system.

Question for Turbo8u other than replacing my ghetto catchcan/filter setup what would you recommend I do? I think a visual picture of your setup or one that you speak of would do alot more for us than just words, please post a pic up if you have on available, thanks alot.

It's not a PCV issue..Think about it, when under boost, it puts pressure on the intake side of the PCV,and it seals closed, so no pressure gets by it. Obviously, crankcase evacuation wont happen now under boost, but it will work normally when not boosting. Either way, you should keep the stock PCV system in tact, and put a catch can with a breather filter on it, attached to your breather line from the driver side of the valve cover. Small amounts of blowby under higher boost is normal, but if its excessive, then your rings are not sealing as good as they could be. I've been running 15 psi for some time now, and i get very, very little blow by oil, using the JE rings, even with slightly larger than spec ring end gaps.. Do a hot compression test and see what numbers you get, as that can give you an idea of how well your rings are sealing. I've never used the total seals, but high performance, high HP engines have used "normal" piston rings for decades, and have worked just fine. No need to re-invent the wheel IMO..

That crankcase evac system looks like a neat thing to try, as I've heard nothing but good results from using them.

Turby, thanx for the awesome post on this...i appreciate it.

it seems that there is so much speculation and debate over these damn rings and all from knowledgable people that it makes my head spin.

but i will look into that crak case thing you mentioned...as well as do another comp check. i have done many since the rebuild and all have been great, but ya never know what can happen.

Originally posted by XtremeRS
when under boost, it puts pressure on the intake side of the PCV,and it seals closed, so no pressure gets by it. Obviously, crankcase evacuation wont happen now under boost, but it will work normally when not boosting.

right right, it works when the manifold is not pressurized...and well, we have 16g's man...how often are you not in boost? lol. with the exhaust is more or less 'scavenging' the crankcase pressure out with an evac system, it actually scavenges MORE when under boost...and i think thats really important. especially because when the combustion chamber is pressurized, it tends to want to blow more past the rings like you said...

basically we have to change the dynamics of how our motor's PCV system operates, because originally it wasnt designed for boost...so the PCV valve actually closes off under boost, which in turn creates more crankcase pressure and more blowby.

like i said though check out how an rx-7 has its evac system hooked up (stock)...the inlet of the turbo sucks up the gas like a blow-through setup, its initially what got me thinking about what i should do with mine...but i didnt want all that crap blown through my turbo and into the intercooler, so i checked out how the old v8 guys did it with the evac kits.

Originally posted by tim97rs
i will look into that crak case thing you mentioned...

haha, crak head :+

here you go, this ISNT my car...but my setup looks almost exactly like this





edit: oh yea, it also claims to 'greatly increase piston ring seal'...which is definately a big plus

you should look into the turbo forum. we have been talking about crank case ventilation systems.

i run one on my car.. i dont use the PVC system anymore.

So Turbo8u, intially the only difference is that you have a pcv hose running from your catchcan to a welded pipe in the downpipe to draw out any blowby? rather than to a breather directly off the catchcan?

Originally posted by bubsy12
So Turbo8u, intially the only difference is that you have a pcv hose running from your catchcan to a welded pipe in the downpipe to draw out any blowby? rather than to a breather directly off the catchcan?

exactly. i have it setup like this:

breather/stock pcv hose > catch can inlet and then from the catch can outlet > PCV check valve in the exhaust

that way when i DO get blowby, the catch can catches the oil...and it doesnt burn up in the exhaust and smoke and all that. and the neg pressure of the exhaust creates a suction in the catch can

edit: EXACTLY like you pictured :thumbsup except i have a fat turbo hangin from my engine :+

example?. (excuse the photoshop)



lol about the turbo hangin, mines all ready to go in as well :P

Holy Hell! look at this shit.... i actualy started a useful post!!!how about that...?