Okay you guys I fianlly have the money to buy parts to rebuild my motor. I going with low comp piston to boost.Here is a list of what think I need so far. Please added anything if needed. I getting my stuff from www.conceptilusions.com



Eclipse 420a Combo Rebuild Kit JE Pistons / Rings / Eagle Rods Bore Size: .020 Over
Compression Ratio: 8:1
$804.00 USD
Eclipse 420a Lower Gasket Set $45.99 USD
95-99 Eclipse MLS Head Gasket $40.99 USD
OEM TTY Headbolt set Eclipse 420a $39.99 USD
ARP Head Studs Eclipse 420a $104.99 USD
ARP Main Stud Kit Eclipse 420a $104.99 USD
Melling Performance Oil Pump 420a $99.00 USD
Eclipse 420a Timing Belt $46.99 USD
Eclipse 420a Water Pump $48.99 USD
Bearing Main and Rods about $120.00 since that page is not working.
Do I need anything else? Or get better prices on this stuff?

Upper gasket kit?
new thermostat?

Tensioner from Satan or get a new bearing

Which bearing? I'm so lost.:-(

get a tensioner. it's save you grief after 500 miles when your tensioner goes.....

I also noticed that you have head bolts AND head studs. Any reason why you need both? And I don't know if it comes in the gasket set, but you'll need anaerobic(sp?) sealant.

Originally posted by WIDECLIPSE
I also noticed that you have head bolts AND head studs. Any reason why you need both?

exactly what i was wondering. Maybe you should change some of that. Also did you mean 8.8:1 pistons, not 8:1 there is a huge difference.

For the compression goes, thats what I'm guessing they are advertising on the website. Is that a big problem? I going to give them a call to see if they carrying other comp pistons. For the bolts and studs, which ones than I need than. :)

save your money on the main studs. No need for them. You will brake a rod befor you brake the stock ones.

best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph(no traction)
www.cnnmotorsports.com

I say get the head studs and the main studs.

Have you ever heard of a main bolt breaking on our cars?

Originally posted by WIDECLIPSE
I say get the head studs and the main studs.

best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph(no traction)
www.cnnmotorsports.com

How many of you guys did the rebuild themselves? I never did something like this before. I was thinking of buying a complete bottom from a junk yard only use the crank and get it clean and build that one. Is this a good idea? Also member on dsmtuners says wisceo pistons are more machine shop friendly or he is full of sh*t.

I'd recomend upgrading the clutch while you're in there.

My clutch is in great shape please tell why I would need to change it? If I going to boost now then the clutch would be smart thing to do. I only need the necessary parts to complete an ENGINE REBUILD not the DRIVETRAIN REBUILD. I not going to spend money on parts I don't need for engine rebuild. In January when I plan to boost thats when the stock clucth will probably go. Not to rude or anything
:P

I'm in the middle of the rebuild now and just got the short-block back together last night, but I'm going back basically stock and going for gas-mileage more than anything else.
I basically did what you are doing regarding a scrap-yard block. I honed it out myself to 0.020" and used the stock-type pistons I used a Sunnen portable hone to do this (now that is a hard messy job...lol) Take my advice and find/use a good reputable machine shop to get you the needed surface finish (Ra) for the type of rings you plan on using and, of course, to the desired size... They will need the new pistons in order to fit them to the cylinders. The block will need the bedplate bolted up and torqued to specs prior to boring/honing. I polished crank/rod journals just enough to clean em up with some 400/500 grit emery cloth using a piece of rawhide to get the motion right.
For just plain old stock parts, I used http://www.partsdinosaur.com. Nothing exotic here.
I agree with about everything else on here that has been posted.
You can probably get that Mellings oil pump locally at Advanced Auto, Autozone etc. for about $20-$30 cheaper. I bought one last Saturday from Advanced for about $73 or so.
I used ARP studs on both mains and head in case I want to do a mild boost someday down the road when I got more money and to avoid any known head gasket issues. Main studs are supposed to hold the bottom plate a little more secure to the block, but as previously stated; you'll probably toss a couple of rods thru the side of the block before the stock ones fail (don't ask me how I know this...lol) so you can probably save that money.
You're gonna need some Loctite 518 aneorobic sealant for the bedplate and the oil pump and I couldn't find it locally and ended up buying it off the net.
Clean, clean, clean....and then clean some more. You need to especially make sure those cylinders are literally spotless...a white shop rag needs to come out without a trace of dirt before assembly. I I use laquer thinner to clean em, then auto tranny fluid, then dry wipe, then oil and assemble.... Use a good brand of moly assembly lube. I use the Red-Line brand but have used 50/50 mix of STP & oil before in a pinch....
Hope this helps....let me know if you need more info.... Oh yeah, did I mention cleaning???? Try some of this stuff: http://www.oileater.com Stuff works alot better than off-the-shelf purple cleaners at the auto parts store....especially if you can rent/beg/borrow a high pressure steam/water cleaner.

Thanks for the info lgjhn, how much should a machine shop charge to clean and bore the block so the will fit pistons? I haven't bought the parts yet but I will in a week or two. Also do you guy think I can find other parts for cheaper besides the oilpump?

My shop charges $100 for a bore, hone, and cleaning. Some charge as high as $200 but you should get a quick turnaround, new freezeplugs, and possibly a rotating assembly balance for that.

As far as cheaper, it's better to pay slightly higher and get as many parts from one vendor as you can. Chasing 20 parts from 20 different vendors trying to save $2 here and there SUCKS.

Also guys I was on howellautomotive lookings at the main bearing and says,"This is a clevite main bearing set. It encludes 5 main bearing upper halves and 5 lower halves. (Note when using a 95 engine block order 2 sets, and use the upper halves from both sets)" Now my car is a 1996 but is built in the summer of 1995. Does this applies to me or what? Also since there are different sizes of the main and rod bearings which size do I choose if I go with eagle rods and the Wiseco pistons(.020)? Please don't bash me for these questions:-)

You probably have a 1996-style engine. To be certain though, order two sets. If it turns out you only need one, you can sell/return the other set. I hate overnighting bearing sets.

If you have a stock engine, that has never been rebuilt, and is not damaged, get "standard" rod and main bearings. Undersize and oversize are for modified cranks that have been shaved down to remove imperfections or damage.

Your machinist will know what to do if he's installing the rods/pistons. If you're installing your own rods/pistons- make sure you pick up a package of "plastigauge" and follow the instructions.

Wiseco pistons have a bad track record in 2GNTs. Regardless of the brand you choose though, a .020 oversize piston will require .020 oversize rings, and a .020 cylinder overbore. Piston size has no effect on the bearings.

Since I'm probably getting a junk yard bottom end,then boring over looks to be good idea.:)

Originally posted by prop7459
Thanks for the info lgjhn, how much should a machine shop charge to clean and bore the block so the will fit pistons? I haven't bought the parts yet but I will in a week or two. Also do you guy think I can find other parts for cheaper besides the oilpump?

Shops are expensive around here and do lousy work.....You can almost tell how good they are by how clean (or dirty) the place is. I went to 3 different ones around here and I wouldn't let em touch a lawm mower engine, let alone a 420A. That's why I honed out my own block, but I have the shop/the right tools & equipment/know-how to do it.... It's just hard messy work even with the right stuff.
A really good reputable machine shop that knows what it is doing is worth it's weight in gold.... :) I was quoted as high as $60/hole to bore/hone and that wasn't cleaning or anything.... I just said "no thanks", and went back the shop, soaked the block down in oileater, fired up the steam cleaner and had at it, then honed it out.

For bearings, you will need to know the year of the salvage-yard block and that will determine what type of bearing setup is in it. Really, the oddity issue with the bearings only applies to the 1995 blocks. On http://www.partsdinosaur.com site, he shows you the difference in a picture if you go and click on the bearing sets he has listed there and look. Regardless of what year the block is, you will need to put a micrometer (mike) on the main and rod journals to measure their diameter and compare that measurement to the standard specs. That will ensure that they are, in fact, standard size...or it will determine how much they have been previously cut down. You will need those measurements to order the right sized bearings....however, the odds are probably with you that they will be standard IF the motor hasn't been rebuilt....still need to measure them regardless to make sure. IF you don't have a mike, you could get away with a cheap vernier caliper or, just drag the crank to the machine shop (helps to have the specs with ya too) and see if they will mike em out for ya.... This is important: wrong sized bearings will mean a quick failure in short order. These motors are a pain to pull/install so you wanna do it right the first time. BTW, I'm not too keen on the Weisco pistons based on another little project I had. I like JE's a whole lot better. The stock pistons are pressed on and you will need a shop press to get em off properly...again, a good machine shop can do this rather quickly. I believe the Weisco and the JE's are of the "floating pin" design and don't require a press fit.
There is alot to this motor rebuilding thingy,but I enjoy doing it. As I suggested earlier, a shop manual is a must. Even a Haynes is better than nothing. Also, there are several good generic books on rebuilding motors that has tons of tips/info in em.....
Dunno if this helps or confuses. I just hate to see ya get into something, spend alot of money and then not be satisfied with the result....

Hey guys, sorry, I don't mean to steal the thread, and I think he wants to know this also.

I never know 1995 engine block is different from other years of engine block? I thought all eclipse 95-99 are the same (420A)

Coz my eclipse is 1995, and I never told Howell that my engine is 1995. so is it a problem?

Also, my eeclipse is equipped with ODB-II, so can the car is using the newer ENGINE block?

Thanks.
and sorry about stealing the thread.
Gil

If it's a'95 420A, it will more than likely have the bearing "oddity", but really, you just need an extra set of bearings to solve the problem....
IF you go to this link, http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb80234.htm it will give you just about everything and anything you ever wanted to know about the differences in the 420A from year to year. Look at the 6th picture down showing the bearing bore, you can see what it is all about. The slot for the bearing tang is on the opposite side of the bedplate/block for that year as compared to other years. There are a couple of solutions: 1. Notch the block (not recommended unless you really brave and know what you're doing and have the tools/skills to do it) or 2. and extra set of bearings to get the extra ones with the tangs that fit (the extra oil hole in the bedplate side won't hurt anything and you will likely end up having full groved main bearings all the way around which is not a bad thing)....or use stock bearings (nope, they're not clevites for sure) from http://www.partsdinosaur.com Those bearings he has on there are pretty decent quality but IF you're really wanting the HP clevites, you're gonna need two sets.
Yes. You should be able to use any block regardless of the computer as long as you hook all the sensors back up appropriately. Computer just sees the sensors and could care less if the metal is of 1995 or 1998 vintage.
Another mistake alot of folks make is not using an anaerobic sealant (Loctite 518 or equal) on the bedplate assembly. IF you don't do this and use typical RTV, you will increase the main bearing clearances ever so slightly....just enough to cause a failure.... I cannot tell you how many cars have been just "given to me" because of the high cost to replace a "blown-up" motor in the mainstream repair business.... Almost in every instance, someone either: 1. let it run out of oil or 2. someone put the motor back together wrong.... Both resulted in a blown up motor which I eventually ended up with for free :).
That linked article also recommends pipe plugs in lieu of the 7/16" press-in types on the oil galleys in the head. Well, thats fine in 4 areas and I've done it before, but in a couple of those areas there are oil holes real close to the plug opening going to the cam bearings. IF you should happen to accidently plug those up...well, you get the picture and I'll end up with another car....lol. I recommend sticking with the press-ins in those two areas.....unless you're real good with the tap etc....why create a bigger problem to solve a small one. On the press-ins, I use Permatex tack/seal just on the outter edge ONLY as a little extra insurance against blow-out...yes, it does happen...don't ask me how I know. :)
Guys, I hope I'm not being too vocal on here.....just trying to help.
LJ

Originally posted by lgjhn
Guys, I hope I'm not being too vocal on here.....just trying to help. LJ

No man, love the information! Thanks for taking the time to share with us your experience.

Brian

You give fantastic, spot-on advice and your posts are a joy to read compared to some. By all means, post to your heart's content.

My I ask.. How do you know?

Originally posted by DarkOne
May I ask.. How do you know?

Behind my shop is a small, but interesting, pile of blown 420a engines along with a couple of 2.5/3.0L V6s thrown in there for good measure..... :)
A couple of em have soft-ball sized holes clean thru both sides....impressive! They look like they were hit with a cruise missle....lol. I think one of em tossed all 4 rods at once...two out one side and two out the other. I've not seen motors let go quite that spectacular since my old Top Fuel days. Most of them came from Avengers and couple from Mitsi. I've dug cast steel engine pieces out of the firewall after they let go.... Yes, they are impressive!
I originally "got into" these things more or less to save a couple of bucks in trying to help keep my son and daughter's cars running while they were in school. Then, I kinda liked the design of the 420As and their fuel efficiency so I took a "shine" to em and use em for commuter cars etc..... They're tough, bad-ass little motors that lend themselves to turbocharging quite nicely, but like most pieces of precision machinery, they do require that you maintain em....they're not too forgiving in that respect....thus the pile out back. :)
I'm not a young man and have been around awhile. I've been building motors since 1968. I collect old Dodge/Plymouth muscle cars from the late 60s/early 70s(have 5 of em stored away in the back of the shop, including a 440-powered '67 Charger with a 4-bbl carb the size of your steering wheel...cost over $2 in fuel just to crank her up). I've even wrenched for a professional NHRA Top Fuel team for a couple of seasons back in the early '80s. The ins and outs of motor building haven't really changed all that much and I've been at it a mighty long time. I quickly "adapted" to the computer/fuel-injected age so these little boogers are a natural for this old fart. So when I see a young fella seriously wanting to do it right but not really understanding what's all involved, it's hard for me to just sit by and keep my mout shut.....sorry.
I lurk on a couple of these site just to stay abrest of the latest/greatest stuff. This particular site I enjoy probably the most due to the high amoout of tech info that's here...I like that stuff!!

Fantastic. Well, please, stick around. The more the merrier :-)

Have you ever thought about building crate engines like howell does and Faster Than you used to?

Originally posted by fungul
Have you ever thought about building crate engines like howell does and Faster Than you used to?

Now that is an interesting thought.....lmao!!!! My wife gives me enough grief now for spending too much time out there.
Actually, Hahn has probably done more R&D than anyone regarding the 420A motor but they're pretty focused on turbocharging for the most part..... They're hoping to break the 800hp mark...that's 200hp/cylinder!!!:eek
Both Howell and Exile do the crates..... Probably the hardest part of doing those is finding good core blocks at a reasonable price.... The last 2 or 3 short blocks I got, I've managed to luck out in the salvage yards at about $350 each. If the head is on em, most of these yards think they're made out of gold or something. :nuts
As much as I like this little motor on the street and I've also learned my lesson a long time ago to never say "never", I find it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyy unlikely that you'll ever see a 420A approach TF speeds. :rolleyes It's a nice thought though...
In it's naturally aspirated form, it's a pretty anemic motor but very fuel efficient. What really makes this motor is a turbocharger. The reason it lends itself so well to turboing is the advanced bedplate design. It is, in essence, a 4-bolt main design with a relatively short crank making it pretty bullet-proof in an area that is usually pretty weak in other designs. In the early days, we coveted a motor that could be built with 4-bolt mains (One of the reasons the Hemi design was, and still is, so popular in drag-racing). The 420A essentially comes built that way. The weakest part of the short block in my opinion is the rods... The stock rods are ok on a day-to-day, wife drive to/from work commuter car, but they just won't take much punishment otherwise. I've got a few laying around here in a pile that are bent to varying degrees...mostly timing belt tensioner failures (I've found it's rarely the belt itself, but the dag gum tensioner and/or bearings in the idler and/or water pump that does the dastardly deed) resulting with the piston cramming itself into the valves...not only does it bend the valves, it also can bend/crack/break the rods and pistons....they're pretty weak. Plus, I don't like that original "cracked" rod design either. You guys that are going with Eagle rods etc. are definitely doing the right thing. In my opinion, it is an absolute necessity if you're gonna boost it even a little bit.
The other weak point which is pretty common to almost all cars these days is the valve train. The design is great, but the valve springs just suck. I've seen valve springs outta some of these high mileage motors that look like the old test springs we used to break in cams with....lol. Talk about weak....geez. :shrug
I use crane valve springs even on the regular old commute cars. IF the valve train ain't stable (weak springs) in opening/closing the valves, it ain't gonna do it's job whether it's fuel economy or drag racing...especially with any kind of rpms at all. The good part of that though is that if you come across an untouched head, they're usually in pretty good shape because of light wear on the seats and cams. I've seen stock cams with almost 200,000 miles on em and they're still within spec on the wear tolerance. Heavier springs will wear em out though....enough of my ramblings, gotta go...:wavy

The cores really shouldn't be so much of an issue for you because basically you just track down a block for your first build and then have people trade out there blocks for there core deposits.

Originally posted by fungul
The cores really shouldn't be so much of an issue for you because basically you just track down a block for your first build and then have people trade out there blocks for there core deposits.

True....assuming they got good cores etc. For some reason, the 2.0L is the hardest to find...at least around here. I did some checking this morning for 2.4L....pretty common... Guy at the yard asked me how many I wanted.....lol Same place had no 2.0L at all. I bought the last he had months ago......
Maybe the 2.4 is the way to go IF we can get it shoe-horned in there, get it hooked up computer-wise and assessory-wise. This is not a new thought for me. I thought about playing around with a bored-out 2.4L with LOTS of boost.... I've been tempted before.... :)

Originally posted by lgjhn
Maybe the 2.4 is the way to go IF we can get it shoe-horned in there, get it hooked up computer-wise and assessory-wise.

It's all been done... AC is the hardest part.

Cool!!! I guess I need to search and see what's all on here.