I am posting this because i can't seem to come up with a good explaination as to where these metal chips came from.

After a weekend of running a %30 mixture of xylene to 93 octane and running 23 psi spikes with many 20-21psi steady 3rd gear pulls, I noticed the engine idling rough. I was getting cylinder 1 misfire CEL. I decided to do a compression test and found that cylinder 1 was running 80psi when the others were at about 150psi.

Putting oil in the affected cylinder raise the compression considerably.

This is a rebuilt engine that was machined supposively to tight specs a.k.a. blueprinted and balanced. The hardware is JE 8.6:1 comp pistons and eagle rods.

Getting you up to speed on the damage that i found to only the number 1 piston:
http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=5&topic_id=85914&mesg_id=85982&page=

Now, here are some more pics of the metal depris that I found. I cannot figure out where it came from. The marks on the top of the piston suggest that deris hit the top of the piston. Maybe this is a separate problem from the oil pan or, the other case, which is more likely, that it is from the same thing.

The turbine and intake sides of the turbo seem to be visually intact (without disassembling the turbo) also there is no shaft play. Could it still be that a bearing flew out of the turbo into the oilpan?

Also the cylinder wall on #1 has three small verticle scratches in it. If you were to run your finger over them, you won't feel them -only if you use your finger nail can you snag them, but they are not deep.

The shop says that the piston rings were all within tolerance and were not damaged.

Where the fuck did the metal chips come from in the oilpan?

Notice the small metal chip in the intake lower plenum (last image).

id say definately something from your turbo. its the only thing that makes sense. you have chips in your intake and your oil. well...there is only one way to get debris in your intake mani...it has to go through the intake tract of which your turbo is connected. the metal shaving in your oil pan could have been washed down out of the turbo and dumped into the pan from the oil return.

the peices that got sucked up ended up scoring your walls and ended up messing something totally up to make you lose compression like that. im not sure exactly what could have gone wrong in the turbo...but thats the only thing that would make sense in both instances.

Is it possible for metal shavings that big to come out the turbo oil outlet?

Also, it couldn't be a bearing right? because the shaft play on the turbo still feels mint.

Have you looked at the rod bearings since you have it apart? Detonation will beat them to pieces.

rod bearings didn't show any visual damage. Maybe the main bearings?

Originally posted by rs-pssst
Maybe the main bearings?

Very seriously doubt it. Are they thin flakes, or actually hard particles? Are they soft metal, or does it appear to be aluminum or steel? Can you define any edges or shapes from the fragments? Do they appear to come off something flat, round, square?

I've never seen a turbocharger fail in such a way that it sends metal into the pan, into the charge pipes, and into the combustion chamber all in the same instance with no apparent visual damage.

my money is on the rod bearings

but how can the rod bearing pieces get back up to the combustion chamber?

The pieces in that size (shown in the pictures above), I don't think they can go through the ring gap and get into the combustion area??

Just a thought/opinion.

Originally posted by gilee_8
but how can the rod bearing pieces get back up to the combustion chamber? The pieces in that size (shown in the pictures above), I don't think they can go through the ring gap and get into the combustion area?? Just a thought/opinion.

thats what im thinking. if it were JUST in the oil pan..yeah, id say rod bearings...but since its also in the combustion chamber..thats what makes me think of the turbo.

Ha, I know this sucks for you but this is the kind of investigation shit I love. Had to do this stuff on occasion with our motors (ha! I had one that someone poured mollasis/sugar? and POPCORN in! Popcorn got in the oil galleys and POPPED! Hahaha! Oops, I digress). What's your time schedule for fixin' it. I see you live in Old Saybrook. I would not mind comin' down and twisting my mind on this if you want (don't know about your schedule). From the pics I'm guessing not bearings. The particles don't look flaky enough. Do you have any burn smell? Even on new bearings if they were flaking you would have some burn smell. I'm leaning toward foreign object (something in intake that is not supposed to be there). Two problems could also be unrelated, but I doubt that. I would guess that if you matched the piston up with the cylinder the scrapes would match the "dents" on the outside of your piston.
Anyhow, I'm not taking joy in your misfortune, I just enjoy the hunt.
MB

I'll check on the feel of the shavings when i get home.

I already ordered new bearings and was told by the machine shop that the bearings weren't spun, but they had lost their crush. i.e. their ability to hold vertical load and therefor bend inward.

Can this happen from running way too rich and washing out the oil lubrication on the cylinders, therefor raising the cylinder temps? Bearings should be able to hold 20-23psi on a clean crank, but running afr of the low 9's adversely affect so many components?

Any tips on how i should clean this block without removing the crank to make sure most of the metal shavings get out of dangerous areas?

Is it at all possible that little bit of metal may have been left over from the machining on the block. Maybe they didnt clean it completly when they did the work. That seems like a logical explaination if everything else is in one piece and not missing any little pieces of themselves. Ive never seen it happen like that, but who knows.

I dont think it would be turbo related also unless theres damage to any of the blades.

I dont know..The places where the metal ended up is very odd to say the least. You have low compression for starters. 80 psi sounds more like a ring problem, because even if the walls were scored, the compression would be a bit higher than that. If you look at your oil pan pic, right in front of the turbo oil drain, that large piece right there *almost* looks like a small chunk of a piston ring. From the pic, it looks about the same thickness and texture of a ring. The machine shop may have used too tight of ring end gap clearance for running high boost. This is just a suggestion though. To me it makes a little sense since you have both particles in the pan, and in the intake, although a broken ring working its way past the piston would seem highly unlikly..

How did your valves look? Have you checked your valvetrain like rockers, lifters, springs, retainers/keepers? I don't think its a bearing either, just by how the metal pieces are shaped. They look more flat that anything.

One more idea would be the oil pump. I've heard of the oil pump gears shattering before, so maybe those pieces are some of the teeth off of the gears.

At this point, I would pull the motor and fully tear it down. IMO, you really have no other choice. That's not left over machine metal either..Since you have the head and pan off already, its very simple to pop out the pistons and check the rings, piston pins/retainers, ect.. If you do, be sure to mark the pistons for each cylinder, and mark the piston top for the side facing the timing belt, so you know how they were in there. Don't forget to stagger your ring end gaps either when re-installing the pistons. Any Chiltons manual will show how that works..Good luck

detonation more than likely tore a good chunk of ring land off that piston

thats definately alluminum though

The machine shops says that the valve guide on the affected cylinder needed to be replaced.

Maybe it was the oil pump, but could a busted oilpump screw up the valves by sending chunks of metal onto the top of the head?

OEM 20-over hastings rings should work fine on the JE pistons right?

Also, what if i don't know which way the pistons were facing?

Number one, having worked in an engine shop I can say this about detonation, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN! I once tore down a V-8 that had experienced major detonation and sent chunks of piston through the intake and out THROUGH the carburator. The air filter was damaged by piston. So it isn't entirly impossible in my mind to see this. Im going to start my questions by saying, Im not a turbo guy and don't know too much about them, but I do have a good deal of general engine knowledge. Now if valve guide had to be replaced, what else was going on in the head? How do your cams look? How does the area around the affected valve guid look? If the rings were all fine then you wouldn't get anything from the intake tract into the oil, unless it went through the PCV valve and through the valetrain area. do you have the PCV valve hooked up, how are you evacuating crankcase pressure? Those shavings do look a lot like bearing or aluminum material. If the bearings are fine then what else in your engine is aluminum/soft metal? Compressor housing, head, intake, main bearings, etc. Did you check the oil housing on the turbo and it's seals? I'm sure that many of these questions have come up in your head, I hope I'm helping a little though. Also, when you get metal in the engine, there isn't a whole lot you can do short of stick the block in a parts washer (the big one at the shop that sprays it from all angles with scalding hot soapy water) to be sure all the metal shavings are out. Be careful having it shot peened, and don't under any circumstances decide it's a good idea to run tolulene through the oil system to clean it (I may sound like an ass for making that warning, but I've seen someone do it). Good luck, post what you find out.

If you want to know what kind of metal the pieces are, just take a magnet to it. If its aluminum, it wont pick it up..

Those metal chips were from mostly the rod bearings. The bearings were not spun, but it was possible to see copper coloring on their surfaces. As for the debris that damaged the top of the piston... it still is a mystery. I tore downt he whole engine and gave it a soapy bath at the machine shop, then assembled it back together -1k miles later it is still running perfect as well at back at 15-17psi, but this time tuned.

An important note for people who think they can just plug in the port fueler and go... After seeing the engine internals after about 7k miles on the portfueler on a brand new (rebuilt +built bottom end) motor, I was very surprised to see that hahn's map is VERY rich.

Close inspection of the pistons reveals that the map is so rich, that it will cause the oil to be washed away from the cylinders, thus creating excess friction as well as increased downward force on the bearings -causing them to wear away as well.

The pistons are scuffed on the sides from that friction -they are reusable, but no way will I run this rich again.

Do not wait to tune.

Originally posted by rs-pssst
The pistons are scuffed on the sides from that friction -they are reusable, but no way will I run this rich again. Do not wait to tune.

That tends to be more from heat expansion and close piston-to-bore tolerances than anything else.

Originally posted by DarkOne

Originally posted by rs-pssst The pistons are scuffed on the sides from that friction -they are reusable, but no way will I run this rich again. Do not wait to tune.

That tends to be more from heat expansion and close piston-to-bore tolerances than anything else.

Bingo! too much fuel washed down the cylinder walls and the pistons skirts ground on the major thrust surface.
Seen this many times, aluminum is from piston skirts 90% of the time.
That scoring of the cylinder bore is your piston trying to weld itself to the cylinder wall.