Ok guys I need some serious help. I am finally building my 420A after years. I want to run turbo and be fully build with a stand alone fuel management system. On the bottom end I was thinking either 8.8:1 or 10.0:1 with eagle rods .20 over. The top end I was Thinking Crower Stage 1 cams with crower valves and stock springs and retainers, with AEM adj cam spokets. With the modern performance 60mm throttle body. umm with 800cc injectors. Let me know what I should change and what I should consider.

Also I don't what kind of fuel management to get. My friend is saying the Fast (speedpro) EFI but he works on Honda's. What kind of fuel mane]agement should I run I want a stand alone system. Also what kind of MSD the DIS2 or the Digital 6. How about fuel regualtors??? Please give me a much info as you guys can because I am ready to order everything I just need some guidance from DSM Guys..

Please give me websites where I can get these parts for reasonable prices.

??????????Again thanks for your help guys.... You can also email me at dannybraich@comcast.net

Best thing right now for a standalone is Megasquirt. it is cost efficient and will run fuel timing and soon will acknowledge knock (Mrslick is fully custom fitting it to the 420a).

Terry

96 Eagle Talon ESI....Daily driver

97 Eclipse.........

Id go with the 10.5:1 compression, stage 2 cams, and stay away from the aem gears. Also trry some port work on the intake manifold, maybe some on the head, and the bowls.Or just buy a 2.2 stroker?

How much boost are you planning to do if you go with a 10:1 CR???

Daily driven about 10 - 15 psi but i want to be able to do high boost on the drag strip

you do not want 10:1 compression

Terry

96 Eagle Talon ESI....Daily driver

97 Eclipse.........

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
you do not want 10:1 compression

:nono , and yet, I'm waiting for my custom 10.5:1 Venolias to arrive, Terry. I figure the MSnS (and more than likely water injection come summer, here) will be more than capable of tuning the knock out of the juice. I'd sure hate to have to wait another 3 months for some 8.8:1 slugs this summer... ;)


DSM DAN, you should give serious thought to the MegaSquirt. I was totally against it, despite what it was supposedly capable of for the longest time based only on its gay-ass name, but I tell you, it's got to be one of the most ground-breaking technologies available for your 420a that's ever come about. Infinite fuel and spark control for less than $500? How can you go wrong with that? In the time between when you order it and receive it, Lee will likely have a half dozen high end features built into it that you can upgrade into for next to nothing. It's being used. It works. It's got to be the best thing since sliced bread imo.

Originally posted by DR1665v2

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon you do not want 10:1 compression

:nono , and yet, I'm waiting for my custom 10.5:1 Venolias to arrive, Terry. I figure the MSnS (and more than likely water injection come summer, here) will be more than capable of tuning the knock out of the juice. I'd sure hate to have to wait another 3 months for some 8.8:1 slugs this summer... ;) DSM DAN, you should give serious thought to the MegaSquirt. I was totally against it, despite what it was supposedly capable of for the longest time based only on its gay-ass name, but I tell you, it's got to be one of the most ground-breaking technologies available for your 420a that's ever come about. Infinite fuel and spark control for less than $500? How can you go wrong with that? In the time between when you order it and receive it, Lee will likely have a half dozen high end features built into it that you can upgrade into for next to nothing. It's being used. It works. It's got to be the best thing since sliced bread imo.

You are not the average bear brian...lol My advise towards you would be very different....



96 Eagle Talon ESI....Daily driver

97 Eclipse.........

that quote's out of maximum boost, right?

yep a nice book to read if you have spare time.

Compression ratio can be a trickey decision. One thing to keep in mind that is when you lower the compreesion that you might notice a throttle response factor before the boost transistion. What you need to take in account is the ammout of boost you would like to run and you intercooler efficency. Fuel will presuamably be highest available pump gas, so work from there. Everyone knows with less compression you can run more boost, so do you want to run lots of boost on pump gas and low compression or lower ammouts of boost on higher compression with pump gas? IMO a rule that I tend to agree with is that an engine sould not be reduced to a low-compression slug, this comming from a reliable source. I belive that the reason that most people lower their compression is becasue the tuning is eaiser and they can run more boost. However, whats the point of bulding an engine to only run small ammouts of boost? Really i think it all comes down to prefrence and engine preperation. And at 10-15 psi, and high compression = lots of headaches and detonation issues unless you are using some high octane fuel. And some final imput on CR ratio's
-the lower the CR ratio the more boost you can run with out detonation
-the higher the CR ratio the greater the fuel efficency and nonboosted response

As for the cams at or above ~12~15 psi I would then change cams. And hears my reasoning. Now this is directly quoted out of one of my books.
Make no mistake in the fact that turbo preformance cams are very diffrent from atmospheric preformance cams. The characteristics of long duration and high overlap for atmo cams are unwelcome in a turbo system. The street turbo, which is generally small, operates with exhaust manifold pressure somewhat higher than intake boost pressures. This situation, when presented with long-duration, high overlap cams, creates a huge ammount of reversion. Thus the "turbo cam" tends to become a low-duration, very limited overlap cam.
Rule: It is hard to find a turbo cam that works better then the stock item.

Originally posted by DSM DAN
800cc injectors.

those might be a lil much for only 10 - 15psi of boost :P

look for 450's or so if you are planning to run about 15psi.

Originally posted by Quadman313
I belive that the reason that most people lower their compression is becasue the tuning is eaiser and they can run more boost.

I would agree with that statement.

Originally posted by Quadman313
However, whats the point of bulding an engine to only run small ammouts of boost?

I think you're missing (or at least not mentioning here) that the point of turbocharging is to make power, not to run the most boost. This is where turbo effciency comes into play. if you have a turbo that is highly efficient compressing at 35psi, a lower CR motor would be able to spend more time in the efficiency "island" of the map. A higher CR motor, which couldn't handle as much boost, might not be able to spend most of it's time that high up and be, what's the word, stalling out on you? You can make the same horsepower either way.

Originally posted by Quadman313
And at 10-15 psi, and high compression = lots of headaches and detonation issues unless you are using some high octane fuel.

It's all in the tuning, sir. The biggest benefit to boosting on lower compression internals is not necessarily the reduced risk of knock at higher boost levels, but the greater safety margin associated with the same. If you are capable of monitoring and tuning on the fly (such as with a MSnS and a wideband O2), high comp turbo can be just as safe.

Maybe my math is a joke here, but if 1pt increase in CR on these engines yields a 4% gain in HP, then I'm thinking (and I could be wrong, but I'm sure the concept is still true despite my hypothetical numbers here), if you make 250hp at 10psi on 8.5:1 CR, then my 10.5:1 CR is good for 270hp at that same 10psi. Yes, I have to work harder to tune it than you do, but once it's there, you're history. While it is very cool to be able to say you run 35psi on your turbo and make 400hp, I think it is more impressive to say that make the same horsepower and run less boost. Remember, its not the psi that matters so much as the whp. }(

And Terry, I know that you know that I know. :P

And I do agree with you Dr1616v2. I was just saying that with CR ratios of 10.5:1 and 10 psi you are going to need to run 100 octane which is completly acceptable for a race car but not so much for a daily driver IMO. Personaly I would like rather run higher compression ratios and low ammmounts of boost. Anyways, it all comes down to what turbo he is going to use, how much boost, and what intercooler before we can argue the specifics. Also could you explane this again im juat a little confused mabye because its the morning but anyways, and I do understand that each turbo has a diffrent compressor flow maps and that it varies for each turbo. Thanks in advance.

This is where turbo effciency comes into play. if you have a turbo that is highly efficient compressing at 35psi, a lower CR motor would be able to spend more time in the efficiency "island" of the map. A higher CR motor, which couldn't handle as much boost, might not be able to spend most of it's time that high up and be, what's the word, stalling out on you? You can make the same horsepower either way.

Originally posted by Quadman313
And I do agree with you Dr1616v2. I was just saying that with CR ratios of 10.5:1 and 10 psi you are going to need to run 100 octane which is completly acceptable for a race car but not so much for a daily driver IMO. Personaly I would like rather run higher compression ratios and low ammmounts of boost. Anyways, it all comes down to what turbo he is going to use, how much boost, and what intercooler before we can argue the specifics. Also could you explane this again im juat a little confused mabye because its the morning but anyways, and I do understand that each turbo has a diffrent compressor flow maps and that it varies for each turbo. Thanks in advance. This is where turbo effciency comes into play. if you have a turbo that is highly efficient compressing at 35psi, a lower CR motor would be able to spend more time in the efficiency "island" of the map. A higher CR motor, which couldn't handle as much boost, might not be able to spend most of it's time that high up and be, what's the word, stalling out on you? You can make the same horsepower either way.

I'm not sure why soo many people are scared of 10:1CR and boost. My friend and I have converted his 3000GTSL to the VR4 turbo setup. So basically he has a 3.0L V6 running 10:1CR and we're forcing in 10-12lbs of boost via twin 15Gs and we only see minimal knock towards the top of third. This car hauls ass. He's saving up for a blowthru setup and a dejon fmic and we're gonna get her dynoed. Full boost at 2400RPMS kicks ass. I mean our stock compression is almost 10:1, so I'm very surprised to see that noone has done this yet. If you've got the money it might be worth your time.

Originally posted by JWoodley
I'm not sure why soo many people are scared of 10:1CR and boost. My friend and I have converted his 3000GTSL to the VR4 turbo setup. So basically he has a 3.0L V6 running 10:1CR and we're forcing in 10-12lbs of boost via twin 15Gs and we only see minimal knock towards the top of third. This car hauls ass. He's saving up for a blowthru setup and a dejon fmic and we're gonna get her dynoed. Full boost at 2400RPMS kicks ass. I mean our stock compression is almost 10:1, so I'm very surprised to see that noone has done this yet. If you've got the money it might be worth your time.

Im not saying that im scard of it, I would actually like to tune an engine with higer compression just because of the challenge and seeing what I am capable of.

What octane are you using?

Also, you shouldn't see any knock at all ever. Its so damaging to the internals I would be quite worried if it occurs at all even if it is minimal, of corse this is just my opinion. And if you are seeing knock doesnt that mean that you are running out of timing advance in the top end meaning that you need to use a higher grade of fuel?

Originally posted by Quadman313

Originally posted by JWoodley I'm not sure why soo many people are scared of 10:1CR and boost. My friend and I have converted his 3000GTSL to the VR4 turbo setup. So basically he has a 3.0L V6 running 10:1CR and we're forcing in 10-12lbs of boost via twin 15Gs and we only see minimal knock towards the top of third. This car hauls ass. He's saving up for a blowthru setup and a dejon fmic and we're gonna get her dynoed. Full boost at 2400RPMS kicks ass. I mean our stock compression is almost 10:1, so I'm very surprised to see that noone has done this yet. If you've got the money it might be worth your time.

Im not saying that im scard of it, I would actually like to tune an engine with higer compression just because of the challenge and seeing what I am capable of. What octane are you using? Also, you shouldn't see any knock at all ever. Its so damaging to the internals I would be quite worried if it occurs at all even if it is minimal, of corse this is just my opinion. And if you are seeing knock doesnt that mean that you are running out of timing advance in the top end meaning that you need to use a higher grade of fuel?

I didn't mean it to come out saying that anyone was a chicken. ;)Pump 93, its a daily driver. A higher grade of fuel would probably eliminate the knock, however its only in a range of 800 or so rpms near the top of third, then everything is perfect again. (Pefect, haha.)He's in the IPO Propane injection group buy on 3si.org. So whenever that goes through, I'll have some more info. I'll try to see if he can get some logs if you'd like to see em.

Originally posted by Quadman313
I was just saying that with CR ratios of 10.5:1 and 10 psi you are going to need to run 100 octane which is completly acceptable for a race car but not so much for a daily driver IMO.

Well, not exactly. I have had 10.5:1CR all motor for better than a year and ran the AFX/R ECU (which requires 93 octane) on a completely stock fuel system on 91 octane - the highest I can get that isn't leaded race gas. Never so much as a single knock. I'll be boosting this all motor set up (high compression, Crower 2, and a 9,000rpm redline) to hit a target horsepower number I'm not about to share here until it's actually done. But it will get done. As you said, the idea is not that it's impossible, just harder to get to. I won't be bolting up a snail, filling the tank and maxing out the MAP (mind you I have Megasquirt) right away. I plan on keeping the boost very low and making test runs, data logging these test runs, and then looking at the logs to determine just how much more I can go. Slow and steady wins the race. :P

Originally posted by Quadman313
Also could you explane this again im juat a little confused mabye because its the morning but anyways, and I do understand that each turbo has a diffrent compressor flow maps and that it varies for each turbo. Thanks in advance. This is where turbo effciency comes into play. if you have a turbo that is highly efficient compressing at 35psi, a lower CR motor would be able to spend more time in the efficiency "island" of the map. A higher CR motor, which couldn't handle as much boost, might not be able to spend most of it's time that high up and be, what's the word, stalling out on you? You can make the same horsepower either way.

Okay, my wording there probably wasn't the best. All this turbo stuff is sort of new to me, being a died in the wool all motor guy for the better part of 2 years now. :P When you drop to 8.8:1 CR, you run higher boost to make the same power. Now, my numbers here are total bullshit only to illustrate a point, so don't take them as anything more than something to sort of paint a picture if you will. You have a turbo which, on your engine, is going to be the most efficient between 15-30psi. You have a high compression build and you might only be able to tune to that 15psi safely. This would still be possible, but you would be running closer to the surge line of the map (I've got a link about this at the bottom). You would be at risk for stalling the turbo and damaging it (wearing it out) from extended time in partial throttle, sub 15psi boosting. A lower compression build, on the other hand, would maybe be able to run up in the 20-25psi range - right in the middle of the efficiency island. Maybe you could think of the efficiency island as the "sweet spot" on the baseball bat that you want to hit the ball with after you just pointed out to left field. Granted, you have to transition though the surge line to get to the efficiency range, but the idea is to not spend a lot of time there. It's not good for the turbo.

Conversely, if you have smaller turbo that's efficient in the 10-20psi range, running the 10.5:1 CR mentioned above would be right there and, with proper tuning, would make similar power as the 8.8:1, only it would do so at 12-15psi. So you can see that, dropping CR and having to run 30psi to make power on a turbo only rated efficient to 25psi would be taxing the turbo and pushing you towards the choke limit. Once you start getting out the other side fo the efficiency island, you're going to be blowing in more and more heat. Heat is the killer. Heat is the cause of knock. Again, all these numbers are total bullshit, and I'm just making them up to explain this the way I see it. I don't have formulas or data with exact numbers to back any of this up, so I made numbers up to sort of put the puzzle together as I see it. I don't think anyone here can give you concrete numers for any of this stuff. You just have to sort of get the gist of it and build accordingly. It's all about the tuning and carefully considering your goals when building the engine.

www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/kits/basics_techinfo.html

EDIT:
I'm still not happy with the way this all cme out, but it's time for a beer and I'll just say that I think the only three numbers that aren't bullshit when it comes to tuning your car are AFR, WHP, and price.

You forgot enjoyment...but only if you can measure it. ;)

sweet thanks and thats a great link