Sup guys, after 1.5 weeks of not able to start the car, the following are the pictures I took and some of the things I checked and tried. I hope I can get some inputs and opinions on what other things I check.

Check out the following pictures first:






Now watch this movie then listen to what I have to say about it:
http://www.rpi.edu/~leeg2/eclipse/Car%20died/smoke2.AVI
For this movie, take a close look at the Smoke that comes out from the Positive +12V terminal of the battery. When the movie start, the Key is at the ACC/ON position, as soon as the movie start, I start cranking (turn the key to crank position) after holding it for about 1 second (the length of the movie) the positve +12V terminal start having smoking. Is that messed up or what??

During the Movie, you hear a TUCK then after 1 second, smoke comes out, then when I release the key, another TUNK again (both seems from starter or engine bay area)

As the pictures above shows, the positive 12V terminals seems all burnt up, split from OVER HEAT, and etc. The starter is NEW, but it NEVER crank. so it's nothing about no spark, no fuel, no air.

I replaced all 3 relays at the upper right corner of the engine bay (that doesn't help), checked all fuses (no blown fuse), drum started before, doesn't help, battery current is full.

So what's the HEAT UP OF THE WIRE and burnt. seems like a short circuit, but I drove one nite and the next day it's like this.

Can someone give me any other ideas I can have?
any opinions?
THanks all.
Gil

Bump.... Someone please help!
Gil

do you have a good ground on the starter?

I tried that also... but what's up with that SMOKE? short circuit? dead relay? messed up etc?

More help!
Gil

Your first order of business is to replace all those connections on at least the positive terminal. That's all fucked up. Go to AutoZone. They have universals in various sizes that goe from the battery to the starter. I have a 4AWG on mine right now. You also want to pick up a wire terminal brush and a small bottle of battery terminal cleaner. (They will have it) Pull all the connections from the battery. Clean them with the spray, then the wire brush. You can just cut the ends off the old starter wire when you get the new one in. If you don't know what those 2 weird connections are for, then you should leave them disconnected. You should have a lead from the positive to the starter (big red one) and then 2 smaller white leads for the harness and ECU. If you can afford it, you may want to reterminate the 2 white lines there as well. Your battery doesn't look too bad, but those connections look like fucking ass man. You shouldn't let them get that way and if you're thinking of buying a car with connections that look like that, you should know the previous owner was a fucktard and cooked something. :shrug

EDIT:
Smoke comes from something burning. Usually in an electric environment, that means something is shorting out (like 2 mystery wires that go to who knows what). Too much current flowing through the lines makes them hot and they start to melt the insulation or anything else they come into contact with.

Here's a tip - that's not a ground. That's the 12v+ feed to the starter solenoid. Want to verify the starter works? Jumper that directly to the positive terminal. The starter grounds through the two big bolts that hold it to the bellhousing, and the ground wire that is attached to one of them.

The terminals and all that wiring look terrible. Why is there red wire on the ground side? That's a fuckup waiting to happen.

THanks.
OK, I really want to know one thing.
Where is the POSITIVE +12V and Ground on the Starter?

1) DarkOne - Coz yesterday, I took the starter out, then touch the +12V starter onto the batter +12V side, then use a 4 gauge wire and connect from Ground side of battery to the starter's ground
AND NOTHING MOVES. the old one doesn't move, the new one doesn't move. I HAVE NO CLUE. (so I really do'nt konw if I am sure which is +12V which is Ground on the starter) also (can I just start the starter like a regular electric motor? or it has to connect with some ECU or solnoid in the car inorder to move?
So my first question: can you guys tell me from the pictures WHICH ONE IS THE CORRECT POSITIVE +12V terminal on the starter and which is the ground? THANKS.

2) DR1665 - You mentioned about replacing all the wires on the Positive +12V side of the battery connection? if so, how? I did the grounding wire kit on my eclipse, but now it's the +12V wires, I don't konw which wire to which. Also those smoke coming out, if it short circuit somewhere, shouldn't the fuse are blown?
WHen you say replace, should I replace ALL COMPLETE +12V cables or just the Positive fucked up +12V terminal of the battery?

THanks all.
My g/f is starting to bitching me about not able to fix her car man.
After she said I did all those shit to my car...and can't even fix her car.. .LOL...
I spent 5 hours yesterday outside figuring and trying out everything. Nothing work. I CAN"T EVEN get the starter to move (well, I tested it based on the same car's battery) can it be the battery?
Coz then again, My g/f's dad (fucked up) somehow over the winter break open up the battery top and add water to it. so I don't konw... But can you darkone and dr1665 answer my top 2 questions first... so I can further narrow my problem down! Thanks alot
Gil

Wait... so you are still using the same battery?? you didnt even try a new battery??? and you even claim it is probably fucked up?? crazy. always start with teh lowest common denominator and then work your way up. ripping out the starter 1st and then trying to spark it seems like a bad idea... oh and DarkOne is right... the starter grounds itself through the body of the starter to the bellhousing not one of those connectors. the starter IS the ground...

I am going outside to check more things out... replace all wires and etc.

The reason I said it's not working still and claim the battery should be fine because, first I drum start it, and I did alot of testing using a drum start cable from my other eclipse while car running. and the result are the same. So something is fucked and the starter won't go on.

Second, I try the directly connection of the starter using the housing as the ground also. doesn't work.
Can someone PLEASE tell me which is positive and which is Ground and what I have to do to get a STARTER TO START OFF THE CAR?

Thanks.

The housing is the GROUND!!!!!!!!

Reread Dino's response... he pretty much explains it all. Then read it again.

This is way off i know but you said you hear a clunk...or rather a tuck when you turn the key. get a 19inch socket a couple extensions ad ratchet....turn the crank by hand. i hope the noise you are hearing is not the stater trying to turn the crank that wont move. The next this is clean up all those connection....the four white wires need to be connected to the pos battery. leave them connected. take a testlight and the plug you say is ground.....it not put the testlight on it and have someone turn the key.....the light should light up indicating 12+. if you have that and the starter wont turn its either:
Battery
Starter...i know it new but it has happened
Locked motor or something binding the starter from turning it.


You are seeing a puff of smoke...trace it down and fix whatever it is (bad conn, bad part) it will not just go away!

Terry
96 Eagle talon ESI
rear disk conversion Star Stage II - Optima locate in the hatch - momo Steering wheel - Boost/oil/EGT gauges, HKS TT

97 Eclipse
Greddy header/evo exhaust - Stage 2 6 puck Sprung hub MIBA clutch - Shortened shifter - Koni Yellows w/eibach prokit - Stillen Fr/Rr swaybars - DEI Keyless entry alarm - Niche 17" Shoks

Waiting to be installed: Apexi AFC, HKS EVC IV, ceramic intake, 450 Turbo injectors, SFMU/return line, GSX Front brakes (need rotors)

oh wait the smoke comes from the bat term.....that indicates a massive load on that conn and the conn is bad. the starter is drawing a heavy load and with the conn at the battery being bad (full or resistance) it begins to burn up.tear the poss conn aparts and clean/rebuild the pos term....also look at the positive cable...a very common issue mostly in ford is the cable corrodes inside the jacketing causing a no start. right at the terminal cut the pos cable and look at the cross section...you cant miss the corrosion. if you have that....get some 4 ga and replace the entire cable.

Terry
96 Eagle talon ESI
rear disk conversion Star Stage II - Optima locate in the hatch - momo Steering wheel - Boost/oil/EGT gauges, HKS TT

97 Eclipse
Greddy header/evo exhaust - Stage 2 6 puck Sprung hub MIBA clutch - Shortened shifter - Koni Yellows w/eibach prokit - Stillen Fr/Rr swaybars - DEI Keyless entry alarm - Niche 17" Shoks

Waiting to be installed: Apexi AFC, HKS EVC IV, ceramic intake, 450 Turbo injectors, SFMU/return line, GSX Front brakes (need rotors)

Okay. Let's start with some basics:

In this picture, the positive is on the left. You can see the + between the two shitty yellow connectors. On the other side, you can see the - under the connector.

Here is what you do:
Leave the starter alone.
Remove your battery completely.
Take that battery to AutoZone or Checker or wherever you go for parts.
You need to buy a new cable from the positive to the starter.
You need to buy a new ground strap.
Then have them test that battery man. Just have them test it.

Go home with working battery.
Cut off old terminal from starter to battery at both ends.
Install new starter cable.
Install new ground strap.
DO NOT INSTALL THOSE TWO FUGLY WIRES ON THE FRONT OF THE + RIGHT NOW.
You ought to reterminate the ECU/harness connections, but maybe they will respond to a cleaning at this point.


Those connections are fucking ugly as hell man, and if they're smoking, it's a fire hazard. You don't want your woman to burn to death in a car-b-q, so play it straight.

If the battery is good, then it is almost 100% sure that those shitty ass connections you got there are the problem. My terminals were needing cleaned just this past Thursday and I had no sound or anything (do a search on "Daisy is dead" and you'll find my post). I pulled the connections, which looked 100 times better than those, cleaned them with the spray I mentioned earlier and the wire brush, and she started just fine.

The more I look at those connections, the more I think you should just go and buy the new wires first.

WTF is a 'drum start'?

Thanks guys.
I will try all those today or tomorrow and give you guys some more details!
Gil

Drumstart.. I hope I said it right. I heard my dad said it before.
It's about a start from another car or battery.

Thanks all.
Gil

One more thing.
My g/f just talked about it and said.
About 2 weeks ago (1 week before the car can't start)
The car is low on Engine oil.
Not like EMPTY, but it's below minimum. It still show oil indication on the dip stick but below minimum. maybe 0.5-1.0 CM below minimum on the dip stick. right there we fill it back up to full. and the car still run for like 1 week or 10 days, then it won't start.
Right now, the engine is still full of oil. Can that be the reason that seized up the engine? (if the engine really can't move) which I will go crank it by hand now and see.

THanks.
Just a thought I thought of.
Gil

GIL! LISTEN!
BATTERY! BATTERY! BATTERY! BATTERY!

If those connections are shit, you can JUMP START her till you're blue in the face and nothing will happen.

Replace those connections and clean your posts and the car will start I tell you!



AUGH!!!!!!
/me pulls hair out and bangs head on desk...

Sounds like you (and your GF, for her safety's sake!!) would just be better off taking it to a shop.

Could you maybe possibly just do us one teenie weenie favour?


Next time you ask us for help, and we give you answers, SHUT THE UP FUCK AND TRY WHAT WE SUGGEST! Then, and ONLY THEN, if nothing suggested solves the original problem, post, and say so.

In the meantime, do some reading up, try our suggestions, play with your prick, ANYTHING.

That being said, the electrical system is nothing to fuck around with. Electrical shorts are a hugely common cause of carfires. It's just not worth the risk of having you GF in a rolling timebomb. Well, unless you have a HUGE life insurance policy out on her...

In fact, that is my contribution to this thread. I have 2 suggestions that haven't been brough up yet.

1) Gigantic life insurance policy on your GF - get one.
2) Keep working on her car.

At this rate, you'll be rich in NO time.

-=B-=

I would first try turning the crank with a ratchet to see if its siezed up..If your starter is going clunk, then its working, usually..Also, you can't just put the positive wire at the starter to the batt, and ground the starter body, to make it work. You HAVE to energize the starter solenoid wires, to activate the starter also. If i remember right, there is one 10 gauge wire that plugs into the solenoid, jump that to 12+, with the heavy wire at 12+, and body grounded, and it shouold work. The wires do look like crap, but smoking usually means way too much currnet going through the wires. Only way this could happen is if the starter itself is bad, or its drawing WAY too much current trying to turn over the motor- could be siezed. Thats why i say check the crank first, and see if it turns, then go back to wiring issues.

Guys... chill chill ok... lol.
I got it working. running and smooth.
Thanks so all of you guys input!

Guys... I am listening, and I did all of what you guys suggested other then what I did before. But anyway, I guess it's not the starter. but it's new now. lol.

I first jacked up the car then use my ranch to crank the engine by hand... Nice.. it turns. then I check the terminals and wires.

The problem is the Positive +12V cable that goes from battery to the starter. I have some left over Guage 2 and 4 cable from my grounding kit for my eclipse. so I take all the +12V cables off (those DAMN tapes and ties) I replace them with new wires. and YEAH.. it crank fine.


The funny thing is, yesterday I did the same thing. add an extra wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the starter.. doesn't work. but today I do the same thing but REMOVE the original wire from the battery to the starter..and it works now.

IT seems like the original wire is SHORTING the whole car's power... do'nt know why.
I checked the resistance of the wire...and it's like a RESISTOR! couple thousand Kohms... well anyway, it worked.
I will go to Homedepot now and make some good wires for the whole car!
Thanks all.
I greatly appreciated!

Now I won't get bitch around by my g/f.
Gil

Originally posted by gilee_8
Guys... chill chill ok... lol. I got it working. running and smooth. Thanks so all of you guys input! Guys... I am listening, and I did all of what you guys suggested other then what I did before. But anyway, I guess it's not the starter. but it's new now. lol. I first jacked up the car then use my ranch to crank the engine by hand... Nice.. it turns. then I check the terminals and wires. The problem is the Positive +12V cable that goes from battery to the starter. I have some left over Guage 2 and 4 cable from my grounding kit for my eclipse. so I take all the +12V cables off (those DAMN tapes and ties) I replace them with new wires. and YEAH.. it crank fine. The funny thing is, yesterday I did the same thing. add an extra wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the starter.. doesn't work. but today I do the same thing but REMOVE the original wire from the battery to the starter..and it works now. IT seems like the original wire is SHORTING the whole car's power... do'nt know why. I checked the resistance of the wire...and it's like a RESISTOR! couple thousand Kohms... well anyway, it worked. I will go to Homedepot now and make some good wires for the whole car! Thanks all. I greatly appreciated! Now I won't get bitch around by my g/f. Gil

You just confirmed that what EVERYONE was telling you was correct!

What you just experienced invloves the fundamentals of electronics... if you have that much of a problem grasping the basics, then I suggest you leave all wiring and electrical work to a profesional...

And as DINO said! The reason you couldn't get the starter to do jack the way you were trying when connecting it to the battery is the starter gets it's GROUND through the engine!

The terminal you were calling "Ground" in your first picture is the +12V terminal for the starter solenoid... Here's some advice... if Dino is telling you something... then stop for a second, and think hmmm he may know what he's talking about... maybe I should follow his advice! The same goes for most of the other people who tried ot help you!

Please don't take offence to what I am saying, I'm just trying to help further your education... ;)

Lee.