I need some help here guys and I cant figure it out.
My car has not been idling well. I have tried many things to fix it and can't get it.

No CEL's that are related.
It runs great as far as i can tell after it has gone through its startup phase...

Here's a lits of things that I have replaced checked so we can get that out of the way.

Keep in mind it has done this before AND after all these new parts/fixes...

New wires
New plugs
New fuel filter
New fuel pump
Fuel pump mod
New Throttle body w/ gasket
New Vac Lines
New thermostat
New Radiator cap

New Crane Ignition

unhooked egr
unhooked evap
cleaned and reset IAC
checked TPS
installed missing link (not related i know! just getting ready for turbo.)

Heres the problem.
Whenever I start the car it idles fine for about 8 seconds then starts to stumble. The vac drops, the rpms drop, and it about dies.
It will continue to do this for about 3 minutes, then all of a sudden it catches itself and runs fine.

Here's the kicker, it does this on every start, no matter whether it is a cold start on a cold morning, or if i stop in a parking lot, turn the car off, then turn it back on. Always does it. Seems to stumble for longer when the car is warm.

I have datalogged many of these starts and here's what I have found-
Short Term Fuel trim- it goes down to -25 and stays there until i rev it
this in turn affects the LTFT which slowly starts to head towards -25.
the MAP drops like crazy matching the pattern of the STFT
the O2 seems to cycle properly

The spark advance is all over the place

I have attached 3 images.
1st image is of a cold start
2nd image is of a warm start
3rd image is of same warm start with spark advance

I also have the logs available if anyone can look at them, I would appreciate it.
The program is available for free at http://www.obd-2.com/ve110.zip

this will allow you to view my log files.

Here is the images:




Here is the sound file:
http://home.earthlink.net/~djtrickee/Misc/eclipse_bad_idle_1.mp3

Here are the log files:
http://home.earthlink.net/~djtrickee/Misc/SCAN13.DAT
http://home.earthlink.net/~djtrickee/Misc/SCAN14.DAT


I am desperate and have my HRC stage 2 sitting here in my living room staring me in the face. I need to fix this problem before i put it on, imo.

I will pay anyone that can solve this problem or donate a sizeable amount of money to 2gnt.com. I am at my wits end and dont have time to fuck with this anymore.

Please help a fellow 2gnt'er out here...

EDIT: if anyone in the Denver area has any ideas or wants to see the car I will sport much alcohol and food for your services.


Thanks and good night!

First off, do you run the stock injectors, or larger? Second, is that 25 degrees of advance at idle?? Or are you revving the motor, or is it when you first started the motor(motor starts high, then drops rpm)? For you to have -25% of LTFT, means the motor is putting in way too much fuel for some reason. If you are running stock injectors, then fuel trims should be around +5%/ -5%, or in that range +/- a few. Have you actually replaced the o2 sensor? Just because it's cycling, does not mean its giving correct info to the ECU. Answer these Q's and we'll go from here.. Oh yeah, have you tried to take out the Crane Ignition at all? Is it currently hooked up when its doing this?

Thanks for the quick reply
Yes I am currently running the stock injectors.
The advance is not when the car is started, but a few seconds, probably 20 seconds, into the graph. Those numbers represent the far right of the graph. that is sitting in the parking lot, not moving, but revving the engine trying to keep it alive.
Once it gets past the idle problem, about 3 minutes, it drives fine and idles fine, until turned off. then repeat.

during driving the STFT and the LTFT both even out around 0.

I have not replaced the O2 sensor, but I am not throwing any codes and my a/f gauge swings back and forth normally and goes rich when WOT.

thanks.

Did you disconnect the Crane Ignition? Have you look at the following when it idles bad-

Coolant temps
IDLE timing advance
IDLE Throttle position %
Do you know your fuel pressure?

Originally posted by XtremeRS
Did you disconnect the Crane Ignition? Have you look at the following when it idles bad- Coolant temps IDLE timing advance IDLE Throttle position % Do you know your fuel pressure?

The Crane ignition i just installed this weekend and was an attempt to fix this problem. So that isnt the cause. I have had this problem for about a month or so now.
Everything i have done has had no effect on this situation.
the spark advance i think is in relation to the TPS/ rpms. Thats what the graph looks like.
here it is.


as you can see the advance is directly related to the rpm.

Would a bad front O2 cause all this only for 3 minutes at idle then drive normally?

sounds like maybe the 02 to me too, you said it runs like that more frequently when its warm

not sure the effects of disconnecting the evap...but, that could be it.

fuel pressure? get a gauge and test the test port on the fuel rail if you have a late model system

you might have a clogged injector or something
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

Log your coolant temp. I bet the sensor is hosed and the ECU thinks it's -25 degrees or something.

Originally posted by 992gnt
Log your coolant temp. I bet the sensor is hosed and the ECU thinks it's -25 degrees or something.

Nope. It is reading normally. and the datalogged numbers are matching up with my Water temp gauge perfectly.
After Amillers problems i thought of that and logged it.

On my list of suspects would be MAP sensor (just check it) and O2 sensor. That is where I would start. After checking these things I would move to the fuel pressure and other issues. I will think on this some more and get back if I think of anything else.

Well as far as I can tell, for some reason, the ECU is pulling fuel like mad(-20+%) So either its dumping in so much fuel, the ECU is trying to pull it out,and running way to rich, OR, something is telling the ECU to pull fuel, when really the fuel mix is correct, and you are running too lean. I'm very suspect of the o2 sensor. MOstly because this is what is telling the ECU to do with fuel, in terms of fuel trim percentages. We have a 4 wire o2 sensor, which means its a heated sensor. Basically, there is a heating element in the sensor, to help it get up to its operating temps faster on warmup, so the ECU can go into closed loop to start controlling fuel quicker(mostly to cut down emmissions, and also,the 02 sensor doesn'tlike to work too well when its not up to temp). I guess I dont really know exactly what the ECU is looking at to tell it to go into closed loop..Don't know if it gets a signal from the o2 directly, or if it just see's coolant temp..Its not a cheap part to just "replace" to find a problem, but knowing if the heater circuit is bad in the o2,is very hard to find directly. Looks like most of your other datalog info looks good, so yeah its a little tough to figure out..the fact that it only does this for a few minutes, just makes me think that its an o2 sensor issue, and it runs fine when the o2 is warmed up enough to give its accurate info to the ECU...o2 sensors don't like to work too well until they are hot..

Im in Lakewood.

As far as your problem goes you have done everything I can think of at the moment. If you want I could stick my head under the hood and see if I can figure it out.

We can also part swap from mine to yours (o2) my car doesnt even use the stock one.

It might help and it might not but if you want I have free time Friday all day till 3:30pm and all day Sat.

Im also running the hrc stage 4 so if you have any questions about your upcomming install I can answer those for you.

Let me know
Brian

I'd log the intake air temp as well. I like the rest am suspect of the O2 sensor, there's a way to test them, worth a shot.



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
It's holding down the garage floor right now.

Thanks for all the replies guys. I am suspect now of the O2, but it threw me off its path since it never threw a code and my a/f cycles normally.

My intake Air temp seems to be stable and doesnt flucuate too extreme.

Brian- thats an awesome offer and I will get ahold of you. Unfortunately I have to work all day today and tomorrow. So maybe next week we can find some common time to hook up. Besides I have always wanted to see your car!
Maybe I can borrow your O2 real fast and just plug it in for a day.

my cell is 720-201-65sixnine.

I will update this post as I find more.

Originally posted by XtremeRS
I guess I dont really know exactly what the ECU is looking at to tell it to go into closed loop..Don't know if it gets a signal from the o2 directly, or if it just see's coolant temp..

coolant temp lets the ecu know to go into closed loop, anywhere from 160-200 is operating temp (not *exact* but something like that)



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

Originally posted by turbo8u

Originally posted by XtremeRS I guess I dont really know exactly what the ECU is looking at to tell it to go into closed loop..Don't know if it gets a signal from the o2 directly, or if it just see's coolant temp..

coolant temp lets the ecu know to go into closed loop, anywhere from 160-200 is operating temp (not *exact* but something like that)

I don't know about that...I can see my A/F gague start to cycle and read fuel trims well before that, on a cold motor..Seems like when the EGT gague starts to go over 700 degrees, thats when it goes into closed loop.. Here is something interesting going on with my car....almost the same thing you are describing..I capped off my EVAP hose barb at the throttle body, and capped the line that went to the TB, and now my car misfires and stumbles for a minute, then runs fine..flashes my CEL..got a EVAP leak code, and a cyl 4 misfire code..I am going to hook that back up and see what happens..was fine until i did this.. may want to check into it! I'll post back with my results..

Originally posted by XtremeRS
I don't know about that...I can see my A/F gague start to cycle and read fuel trims well before that, on a cold motor..Seems like when the EGT gague starts to go over 700 degrees, thats when it goes into closed loop.. Here is something interesting going on with my car....almost the same thing you are describing..I capped off my EVAP hose barb at the throttle body, and capped the line that went to the TB, and now my car misfires and stumbles for a minute, then runs fine..flashes my CEL..got a EVAP leak code, and a cyl 4 misfire code..I am going to hook that back up and see what happens..was fine until i did this.. may want to check into it! I'll post back with my results..

hmmm...yea, thats what i was saying about the EVAP....i dont know the effects or symptoms, but keep that in mind. im interested in what it is too.

about closed loop...you're probably right about the 700deg thing, the heated 02 just needs to get warmed but im not sure exactly if that is what kicks it over into closed, or what :shrug. i know the engine is not at operating temp unless the coolant is warm enough for the ECU to stop running it richer than usual, thats the perks of the coolant temp to injector pulse duration relationship, when the motor is cold it holds em open longer to warm it up

anyone know what actually turns it over to closed loop? or is it a combination of the above?



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

silent souls leave .308 holes

As far as the evap stuff, I have gone back and forth with no results on that front. I have run it hooked up, unhooked, unplugged, capped, etc and it seems to make no difference other than throwing a CEL. I had a cel way before any of this regarding EVAP gross leak detected which is the code everyone seems to get and no one can solve.

I am interested in the closed loop discussion part as well, because if it times out with my stumble and stft then that might lead us in a different direction. Seems to be about 3 minutes after start up that my car evens out and the stft and ltft return to normal. My EGT is hooked up yet since i dont have the turbo mani installed on the car obviously.

I think there are different maps the ECU uses based on warm up and operating temp, which I think when I asked around a while back in regards to the 160 thermostat. The switching point was like under 150 degrees.



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
It's holding down the garage floor right now.