how much power from a P&P of the head and intake plus 55mm TB?

wrong section.

Originally posted by daniel992gnt
how much power from a P&P of the head and intake plus 55mm TB?

Maybe 7hp, typically the P&P is negligable unless you have some decent mods and a lot of the time people gut theirs before they have any boltons. I would say smooth the ports instead of actual porting. So together a good guess would be 7, I would also tune it with an SAFC which is pretty much standard nowadays

Originally posted by Skrilla

Originally posted by daniel992gnt how much power from a P&P of the head and intake plus 55mm TB?

Maybe 7hp, typically the P&P is negligable unless you have some decent mods and a lot of the time people gut theirs before they have any boltons. I would say smooth the ports instead of actual porting. So together a good guess would be 7, I would also tune it with an SAFC which is pretty much standard nowadays

thankyou for a good reply

Well just from a good port and polished head, and nothing else, I would say around +10 to +15 whp peak a very big mid range and as much as 17-20 whp on top end.

That's what I got when all I did was P&P a cylinder head for a 1.6 liter Storm DOHC on the dyno before and after.

Head work was the only thing done to this motor everything else was the exact same as before the install.

It's not a lot of power...... but it was a start and it was a 1.6, midrange power was like night and day.

Take a look at the actual stock whp at 7000rpm 85whp , afterward same rpm it was 102 whp, that is a 17 whp gain over stock.

Now on a 420A you should get a little more, especially with a 55MM TB and a ported manifold.

Now same whp with a custom ITB setup, Holy Moses! Little Storm would eat up any Honda on the street, bolt ons or not!

When I 1st installed the ITB setup, there was three of us in the car, I was able to chirp the tires in all three gears, before, we had a hard time squeeling the tires in 2nd with only 1 person in the car in it's stock form.

This is not advanced.

not advanced, but that storm is badass IMO. lol. porting and polishing will probably only hurt fuel economy unless you have bolts ons or boosting. just my opnion though. goodluck. :cheers

Originally posted by DarkOne
This is not advanced.

LOL, that's right Dino!

I'd like to point out that, that particular car has some other mods besides a P&P like a mill AND I doubt that cylinder head is anywhere as efficient as the 420a is stock, also as a reminder the 420a cylinder head was from an abandoned Lotus racing design. With this in mind modification to it is acomplishable but not nearly as easy as other heads.

So I will stick to my low numbers as I do not feel there is ANYWAY to achieve 15WHP from a mere port and polish.

C'mon, we are being a bit optimistic aren't we :wary
15WHP is what 25 crank HP and from a P&P, and NO other Mods? Ha!!

I don't want to take away from that little 1.6L you built because that is kinda impressive but P&P, milling and bored/ported TB are pretty common place.

Like Dino said this is not advanced.

I say the 10-15 whp is definately achievable. Look at your V-8 cylinder head they can add in the 30-40whp+ range, cut that in half and why wouldn't you believe 10whp or 15whp.

A good port job and supporting intake and exhaust mods, I believe it. My ported head, which isn't the best job and is being choked out by my small exhaust, and put down some decent numbers, at 800ft altitude.



http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Originally posted by Michael_97RS
I say the 10-15 whp is definately achievable. Look at your V-8 cylinder head they can add in the 30-40whp+ range, cut that in half and why wouldn't you believe 10whp or 15whp. A good port job and supporting intake and exhaust mods, I believe it. My ported head, which isn't the best job and is being choked out by my small exhaust, and put down some decent numbers, at 800ft altitude. http://www.exileracing.com una salus victus Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

I see what you're saying but with no other mods and a port and polish I just don't see it happening.

Sure we can look at a V8, but we really have to take into account the stock flow potential of our cylinder head, it is already pretty developed and I would say certainly more advanced than the average american muscle V8. So a port and polish on an engine of that size (which is actually more than twice our 2L) with such an inefficient head better have some nice gains but our little motors with their modern head designs flow very well (actually we both know where to find the actual numbers :9 ) they flow better than Hondas and our turbo nemesis the 4G-63T cylinder head. So porting without some tuning tools (EG SAFC) or other mods IMO can't develope 15WHP alone. Nope I just can't see a simple port and polish with nothing else move enough air at the correct velocity (since this helps determine the cylidner head efficienct) to make 15WHP...I would love to be proven wrong...

...As a matter of fact I lay down the gauntlet to anyone who can get 15WHP off of JUST a P&P on a bone stock 420a, fuck it, a CAI also!!

Originally posted by Skrilla
As a matter of fact I lay down the gauntlet to anyone who can get 15WHP off of JUST a P&P on a bone stock 420a, fuck it, a CAI also!!

I would never suggest anyone do a port and polished head on a bone stock 420A as a first mod... ever!



http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Originally posted by Michael_97RS

Originally posted by Skrilla As a matter of fact I lay down the gauntlet to anyone who can get 15WHP off of JUST a P&P on a bone stock 420a, fuck it, a CAI also!!

I would never suggest anyone do a port and polished head on a bone stock 420A as a first mod... ever! http://www.exileracing.com una salus victus Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Ditto. I think with some good mods P&P is lovely just not with the only other mod being a TB

Originally posted by Skrilla
alone. Nope I just can't see a simple port and polish with nothing else move enough air at the correct velocity (since this helps determine the cylidner head efficienct) to make 15WHP...I would love to be proven wrong... ...As a matter of fact I lay down the gauntlet to anyone who can get 15WHP off of JUST a P&P on a bone stock 420a, fuck it, a CAI also!!

Ok when do you want to do it?
I have no problems with that , not on a 2.0 liter, BTW it should be fair to tell you that I did get 145whp on my car with only a ported and polished head and manifold as one of my 1st mods, still on the stock 49 MM Tb.( stock cams)
Why, because it was the foundation for later mods, take care of the core and build on that.
Besides it was cheap for me, just the price of a head set, the rest was just porting and polishing.
oh yeah, you must want dyno proof:

look at the date , it is well above that now, even stronger with new port configuration and stock pc, I no longer need the Race AFX computer.

Webers not advanced, LOL tell that to Bisimoto, he runs dual Webers for 1/10 the price of the more advanced fuel injection computers and he still can beat all of them

Of course it is always a sea saw battle but, for what most people think is a low tech approach, he is a giant killer.( I love the fact that insists on going against the grain and runs a SOHC instead of a DOHC)

People are not advanced enough to tune them properly, Bisi does and will continue to be competitive well into the future. I talked to him this summer, he has no plans to "upgrade to fuel injection". ( did I mention he is putting down 313 whp?)

Fuel injection is far easier,for example, go to the Tec III website or Tec tuning forums and download a fuel map , your capitalizing on somebody elses work.

I get a kick out of how "technical" they get about air flow , manifold lenghts, resonance tuning , etc etc.
And here comes this guy with these ancient Webers and beats the pants out of all of them........... even laying claim to the world fastest all motor for a time.

You want advanced, learn how to tune a Weber for max power and fuel injection will be a piece of cake, you will understand precisely how the fuel curve should look like.
Don't get bogged down with internet "absolutes", think outside the box.

Oh BTW Michael I got my future project in the mail yesterday, I think you will be interested, you and I are going in the same direction...
;-)
See what I see on top of the fuel rail? The answer to the tip in problem on most ITB set ups with stock pc's....

ha ah it looks like someone got the HP out of the P&P that stupid people couldn't believe HA HA lol

Originally posted by daniel992gnt
ha ah it looks like someone got the HP out of the P&P that stupid people couldn't believe HA HA lol

Is the noob talking shit?:shrug

Originally posted by jerseystyle1

Originally posted by daniel992gnt ha ah it looks like someone got the HP out of the P&P that stupid people couldn't believe HA HA lol

Is the noob talking shit?:shrug

Sounds like it to me :nono St00p!d N00B

daniel992gnt a message for you: um stop breathing

Edisondaman Nice work very ncie work BUT your intake manifold is not stock :thumbsup

Very nice Eddy! Looks very familiar, like something I have sitting in my room, haha.



http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

ohh quads! hey mikey i want to see that installed. maybe this spring??

Anybody remember when the no0bs used to start shit in the pits instead of in the technical threads? LOL.

I'm looking forward to seeing this quad tb set up in action. }(

dayum, looks like something that came off of a FI literbike... or is it?

Yea sport bikes proove how effective non-fuel injected engines can be, i got a 96 FZR600, less than a little over half a 1.0, putting out 98hp on the crank, due to 1 carb per cylinder... its crazy how much HP a motor can create when tuned for power.

Ok, I dont see the 145HP..i'm missin it somewhere! A question: Does that 1.6 L motor have a Mass Air Flow sensor, or is it MAP sensor based? IMO, our MAP based 420A will not take a good effect to porting and polishing, because the MAP cannot accurately measure slight increases of airflow that come about from porting. Our MAP's only sense maifold air pressure, which is mostly coming from the position of the throttle plate(more throttle plate opening creates less air pressure(vacume) in the manifold). I truely believe if we had Mass air flow sensor based motor, that we could gain more power with porting. Now, you should def see some shifting of the power band on these motors when ported. YOu may not really see much HP gains, but I would say its worth while if you can lengthen the power band/torque curve. 7-10HP would be all I would give too in this situation. Someone just needs to do it, dyno stock, then dyno ported to tell for sure. I would be willing to bet the above holds true. I have a heavily ported/polished head, and it did not give a much noticable gain at all...If you are going to port, I would use a SAFC to fine tune the motor with, I'd bet you can get a few more HP using that.

Originally posted by Alucard_1995
dayum, looks like something that came off of a FI literbike... or is it? Yea sport bikes proove how effective non-fuel injected engines can be, i got a 96 FZR600, less than a little over half a 1.0, putting out 98hp on the crank, due to 1 carb per cylinder... its crazy how much HP a motor can create when tuned for power.

hp = (TQ*RPM)/5252 that being said at what rpm does that bike make 98hp? i'm sure well above redline for a 420a. the sportbike theory is the same as the honda theory. small torque at high rpm. if you can provide the RPM for that amount of HP we can solve the formula for torque and find out exactly how much actual power (torque) the bike is making. i would guess around 50-60 lbs. assuming i'm correct they're not far off from the 420a.

if we're going to use computer world terms like n00b then i think i'll introduce another. fanboy. what i've noticed here is that most of the guys here get their back up when you say anything against the 420a. now i've defended the 420a in recent days, i know, but in my retaliation posts i've always been on the side of accurate information not the side of the 420a. let's be honest the 420a is not a performance motor and on an even larger scale the eclipse isn't really a car designed for high performance. there are many things that could've been done differently to make the 420a we have in our cars a much more potent motor from the factory. yes we have a highflow head but that defense is old. it's like no matter what anyone says about any other motor the 420a people come back with but we have a high flow head and this motor has this much potential and blah blah blah. it appears to me that no matter what anyone says the 420a entusiasts always come back to a single defense.

it's like a fanboy in the computer world saying "if nvidia did this then they would beat the ass of ATI. if AMD would introduce hypthreading/had more efficient chipsets/etc. they'd be better." well that didn't happen. if your grand mom fucked her neighbor instead where would you be? the bottom line is the 420a is not performing in leagues equal to any other large import motor. it doesn't have the cheap power advantage the 4G63, SR20, B** honda's have. it doesn't have the huge potential of the RB2* skyline motors, the 2JZ-GTE supra motors or the VQ 300ZX motors have. it's an old fashioned cheaply engineered four cylinder with an efficient head to muster up some sort of power to make it driveable. i'm all for making a car fast but please, call it like it is. we all know that if it weren't for the cars good looks and certain movies this car would have almost no following because of what the turbo models can do.

when i look at the 420a i look at a motor that gets a minimal amount of respect from a crowd largely involved in domestic tuning or neutral in the brand game. it has really no recognition and honestly people that have been working in the automotive maintenance field rarely understand that the motor in the 2GNT is actually a variation of the neon motor and is made by chrysler.

i'll defend anything against inaccurate information like the idea that this motor is slow because 2GNT's aren't very fast when it's actually the extra 4-600lbs that makes the car slow. i'll defend this car from the 4g63 people that don't understand anything that doesn't have crankwalk but i can't sit here with a chip on my shoulder thinking this motor is bad ass when it hasn't accomplished very much since it's implementation in this car nine years ago. this is where everyone lives through hahn's car and tells me how they run elevens but seriously how many of you have 11 second cars and can say you haven't had any reliability issues, or that you have a stock bottom end?

maybe i've been watching to much initial D and am gaining to much respect for AE86's and the other well performing motors implemented in a fitting chassis. all i know is this "420a is bad ass don't swap in a 4G63 even though it's been done for $3000, swap in a 2.4 and hope it runs properly" has to end. it's embarrassing.

I admit what you are saying about torque, ive seen that equation over on clubgp.com a couple times, but simple fact is you can make up for low torque by low gearing, my fzr-600 can do about 50-60mph in first gear because the gearing is very low, and the engine winds out to 12,500 rpms... sure its not that hot straight off the line, but once you get past 6 or 7,000 rpms the thing just takes off, so get up to 10mph and your gone... then the rpms never drop back out of the powerband after the beginnning of first gear...

I don't tune and modify the 420A because it's easy. Nothing worth while ever is. If I wanted easy I'd go buy a muscle car, tear down a monster V-8 and build an engine with a torque curve as flat as an aircraft carrier deck, I could do that in my sleep. Any car can have reliability issues when you start to shave 3, 4 or 5 seconds off the stock 1/4 mile time. You exceed engineering tollerences built into not only engine parts, but suspension, drivetriain, the whole car.

In a world where fuel economy and emissions rein supreme for car builders, we are left with small 4 cylinders, that need work to be fast. The 420A was not built as a performance engine. No naturally aspired factory 4 cylinder is going to come out of the box making obscene hp. The engine is a good starting point, with solid engineering.

And don't knock the engine because our car's are heavy beasts. Those 4 to 600 pounds you speak of, compared to the Neon, have put the Neon into the 13's. And no one here has that built of a 420A naturally to see what she can do, everybody slaps on a turbo and she goes, so no one has fully built an NA 420A and put it in a 2GNT, yet. Will it be the fastest thing on the road? No. But paying half the price of a Vette, you shouldn't expect Vette speed.

Driving a FWD car into the 10's isn't easy. It takes skill, technique and big slicks. Tryiong to get 10 seconds out of a FWD in street trim would be very hard to do. Physics starts to complain.

I build my car for me. Because I enjoy building it the way I want.
But most of all, because I can, and I'm not afraid.



http://www.exileracing.com
una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Originally posted by Amish_Eclipse

Originally posted by Alucard_1995 ...all i know is this "420a is bad ass don't swap in a 4G63 even though it's been done for $3000, swap in a 2.4 and hope it runs properly" has to end. it's embarrassing.

My 2.4L was installed and ran properly, I don't have to hope. It's even been pressurized.

When did i say that?
*EDIT*
Heh i see it now, but I DIDNT SAY IT!! just for people reading, it was the other guy who quoted me lol

Originally posted by Alucard_1995
When did i say that? *EDIT* Heh i see it now, but I DIDNT SAY IT!! just for people reading, it was the other guy who quoted me lol

LOL...Amish said that