Okay, I've got the 10.5:1 rebuild done and it's holding up great. I've done some talking with some of the local guys and we're pretty confident that I will make 200hp NA one day. There is no way around it, so don't try talking me out of it. :P

I will be getting the AFX ECU for Daisy before too long (she's had a heart transplant, why not a brain transplant too?). At that point, I think I will be about halfway to where I want to be. I know that cams come up over and over around here, but I can't get the info I want/need out of dozens of desktop dyno plots and the like (I appreciate the effort and knowledge that went into producing them, but they don't help me much). I also hear time and again about people who are all-motor suggesting the 16s, but who here is running them? I would love to get under 15 seconds in the 1/4 mile, but I'm not really into drag racing. I plan on going autoX once the suspension is finished (another 2 grand - GONE!). Even so, I would be proud as hell to be mentioned with the likes of Micheal, Todd and Thura here when all-motor questions come up.

So my question is this:
Which cams will give me the best performance with my CR and that ECU? Remember, I could give a shit about 1/4 mile times. If I get under 15, it's just a bonus.

Please offer opinions, links, whatever you have on the subject. This is my next stage...

nothing? c'mon...

bump!

Heh, I didn't see the message until today, so that explains the late reply.

I'm glad to hear the higher compression pistons are working out well for you. I'm not going to try and talk you out of running 200 hp :) Now, if only someone could talk me out of it... heh heh

I think the AFX ECU will be an excellent addition to your car (too bad I can't get one ;( ) As for cams, I'm sure someone on the board is running #16s, but the crower stage 2 cams Mike and Thura are running are equivalent to the crane #16s (I know, the specs are different, but I think the performance is about the same) so getting more details from them should be able to help you out.

But, as you stated you're into autocross, not drag racing. You are going to want a wide powerband and excellent throttle response, not a narrow one.

If you will reference the dyno charts of Mike's car versus my car (see here)

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=23&topic_id=370&mesg_id=370&page=

You'll notice the difference in the two car's torque bands. Mine kicks ass from the low end (I'd say my car is making far more torque than stock in the bottom end) all the way to 5K rpms. Mike's kicks ass from 5500 rpms to redline and whoops me in horsepower.

Mike setup would be more ideal for drag racing (top end torque/horsepower in the RPM range you'd use while drag racing), mine would be more ideal for autocross (more emphasis on higher low end/mid range torque).

A setup more similar to mine (only more extensive) would probably be best for you, since you are looking for better autocross performance. Fortuantely, the higher compression AND the AFX computer wil both add performance everywhere in the power band.

That leaves camshafts. My opinon, since you should go for more power and torque over a wide band, you might want to consider the crower stage 1 cams or the crane #12s. I think #16 might not give you the power band characteristics that you would look for in an autocross car.

Well, you COULD go with the #10s like I have, and with the higher compression and the AFX ECU, you should (all else being equal) make more power and torque than me. It would be like adding the pistons and computer to my setup now, the whole powerband would go up (which is what I'd like to do, but I can't get the computer, and I'm not ready yet to tear the pistons out of the car).

But, I don't think that the #10s would give you quite the power you are looking for. So, because you will have two power adders on top of what I already have and you'll want to emphasise autocross performance, I'd go with slightly more agressive cams (crower stage 1/crane #12) but not anything at the level of #16s.

That's just my opinon. If you were drag racing, #16s would probably be a better idea. I'm just not sure, for an autocross setup, how advantageous the 16# would be. But think of my car with the AFX ECU, pistons, and #12s instead of #10s, that would be what your setup would be like, and it should be closer to 15 sec territory, if not in 14 sec territory.

One thing I would not reccomend, even if you did go more agressive than #12 cams, is head work. Or at least, traditional race-porting work. Maybe just some light cleanup and polishing, but NO porting, not for autocross, or you'll have noticeably less lbs*ft of torque in the bottom end which will do you no good.

EDIT:

One more thing. It might be a good idea to do as much research as possible with Neon owners on the Neon boards. They've pushed all motor more than us, and a lot of those guys also have run #16, #18s, #20s, #234355 cams ( :P heh heh, in all seriousnes, I don't think those guys even bother with #12 crane cams anymore) and they have also run alot of autocross setups. You should be able to get more information from some neon ownwers for optimal engine setups for autocross, and they might be ale to get more information as to how the different crane cams perform over the whole RPM range versus each other.

And if you find out that information, let the rest of us know too :)

I agree with Todd on most everything. To elaborate on headwork this is what I would do a completely polish on the exhaust ports and do a port match to the gasket. Don't port out the ports just get the opening to the same size and have it gradually reduce down to the stock port size. Do the same port match on the intake side but do not hog it out ... just get the port entries to the same size then reduce it back to the stock port size.

I agree a street port for autocross not a race port. Keep up those intake air velocities for good midrange, power. Low end power isn't as important except for street driving. With atocross you'll probably be spending the majority of your time in the middle of the rpm range, moving to the top when you can. I'd look at the Crane 12's or Crower Stage 1.

My set up has a horrid exhaust for the cams and headwork. Make sure you are running a good header and cat-back. You could see the steam from my exhaust in the cold the other night being forced out a good 6 to 8 feet with each exhaust gas pulse. Definately too restrictive.

I think 200hp is definately doable. Hell my car is probably around 170 accounting for driveline loss, at the crank. With a lighter set of smaller wheels, and more than a mornings worth of tuning who knows what the car would do. Plus my headwork isn't the best, and I don't even know what compression it is (head milling & combustion chamber work). Built the right way and tuned my same set up will produce more power.



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una salus victus
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Thanks guys. This is exactly the sort of info I was looking for. I took the Dremel to the intake mani ports before I put her back on. I got the ports *close* to matched but left the head alone. I'm looking to get the head cleaned up before I pick up the bump sticks. I was thinking of just getting a 3angle and like you all said, light bowl work (wait - same thing?). I've also got a custom 2.5" header back in the works sans cat, since I can bypass emissions being a full-time student. }(

So I guess this is my revised plan:

by Christmas...
AFX ECU
head clean-up (retouch the bowls, open the ports at the gasket while leaving the runners intact (street port, right?))
2.5" header-back, mandrel bent w/ 30-ish" Cherry Bomb inline to MagnaFlow offset universal

by next summer...
fuel management bits (AF gauge, SFMU or similar)
Crower 2s or Crane 12s with some gears

Somewhere along the line, I should be getting some GSX front brakes and maybe a new CV and windshield, but I will definitely get some dyno time in to share with the team.

Thanks for being an inspiration guys.
LAST ONE TO HIT 200CHP NA BUYS THE REST BEER AT THE '04 SHOOTOUT!!!!

Okay. So the guys over at Neons.org are leaning towards 22s and 24s, but one guy suggested maybe Crane 18s for me. I checked at Crane and here's what they say about the 18s...

Radical street/drag race profile no doubt!

Needs all major modifications as in forged bottom end like mine?

Increased compression I have

Race header w/equal length long primary tubes Pacesetter 4-2-1 count?

Aftermarket ECM, race prepped head porting ECU is coming, but race port vs street port could hinder performance right? and then there's the whole driveability issue too, huh?

RPM range 2,500-7,500 I like this idea, probably pretty lumpy in the drive through, but so what, now they would have an excuse as to why my order was fucked up right?
Grind Number Part Number
CHR-258-8 180-0018

Advertised Duration
Int/Exh Duration @ .050
Int/Exh Lobe Separation Gross Lift
258/258 216/216
108 394/394

These would be maybe too much? Or could I dial them in for streetability with decent gears and dyno time? I really don't want to spend a lot of time on the rollers...

Comments? }(

Neon guys like agressive cams.

I say screw it - if you're gonna do it, do it balls out. Go for the 18's or 22's - you'll STILL be picking up midrange, but with an AFX ECU, you have the ability to keep right on going to 8200RPM, giving you a lot more room to work those cams for all they're worth. No sense in piddilly-shitting around, right?

That's kinda what I was thinking D. But don't those uprated cams do more for you way up in the RPM range? I will still be doing most of my driving on the street. I'd like to get into the AutoX more often, but I'm not even thinking I'll be able to get to the track more than a couple times a month.

So how tough will it be to run 18s or 22s on the street. To work, to school, etc? I'm thinking Daisy will turn into an evil bitch with that kind of setup.

Thanks for noticing my post Dino. And with that, any more input here anyone?

Thanks.

The cams will mess with the low rpm range. The ECU doesn't know how to handle the vacuum very well. So with a lot of porting big cams the low rpm range could be a little rough/jerky. I just have to use the clutch a bit more in traffic. But again my setup isn't ideal. Low throttle and low rpm are a little rough, but not bad. With a good exhaust and other goodies. Big cams aren't too bad, just don't expect a cadillac ride, or smoothness.



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Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

So if I went with 18s I'd have to get the race port and then the car wouldn't really hit until about 2700-3000rpm right? And she'd lope like, like, well, like something that lopes a lot right? :P

But they would put me closer to 200chp right? With the design being mainly for upper rpms, these would hurt coming off the line right? The only time I would be under 2700rpm on a track would be if I pulled a choad move and didn't downshift, lugging it around the apex.

So how scary would Daisy sound at idle and during, tame driving? Also, would these negatively affect highway cruise? I don't want to look like an ass in the next shootout vid all broke down on the turnpike or anything. That would be embarrassing imo. ( :P snicker, chuckle )

Originally posted by DR1665
Also, would these negatively affect highway cruise? I don't want to look like an ass in the next shootout vid all broke down on the turnpike or anything. That would be embarrassing imo. ( :P snicker, chuckle )

Are you trying to say something?

Idle sounds awesome, I love mine, and I'm still spittingout through the GS-T muffler. I put the flowmaster cat-back we built on and it woke the neighborhood (unresonted). Seriously one of the loudest things I've heard, Steve's first analogy was it sounded like a stock car. The idle does sound like a musclecar V-8.

You don't have to go with the race port, but if you getting those big a cams, let them flow. Getting her to idle she's going to want air. You will NEED to have an S-AFC or some fuel management to get her to idle. The ECU is going to want to dump a lot of fuel in. Also make sure your injectors can handle the duty with this set up. No less than 24lb'ers, maybe 30 lb'ers.



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una salus victus
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Originally posted by Michael_97RS

Originally posted by DR1665 Also, would these negatively affect highway cruise? I don't want to look like an ass in the next shootout vid all broke down on the turnpike or anything. That would be embarrassing imo. ( :P snicker, chuckle )

The idle does sound like a musclecar V-8.

Thats what Brian wants :P He fell in love with my SRT idle exhuast.

First thing is first brian....headwork.

Me? Insinuate something? Nevar. :7

So what happens if I drop in 18s, and just get a street port? Idle becomes more labored and top end is limited too? That would really suck imo. I'm curious if there'd be a way to maybe force the power to shift lower in the range. :shrug

I guess I need to start putting together a major cam upgrade plan then. For now, I think I'll just make sure I get new seals in the head and maybe a 3 angle. For the future I'm thinking...

SAFC - not required for most people, but in this case it would be useful? Doesn't the AFX ECU supposed to adjust the AF as needed? (ie, its smart?) :wary How smart...? Howell says the race model see best gains from 16 cams or higher. Another variable. :rolleyes
injectors - any suggestions here? I've heard Ford a couple times. What should I search on?
hardware - I'm thinking the PT cruiser stuff won't cut it at these levels will it. So along the lines of the usual suspects right?

anything else?

Keep it coming! W00T! }(

EDIT:
What cams are you running Mike? 16s yet?

EDIT2:
Something that always bugged me - if the ECU will advance timing, why get the gears? To push things further? To tone it down? How much does the ECU try to compensate? Or is this a difference in ignition timing versus cam position timing? Maybe that's it. :P

You will definitely need something to trim fuel at idle. What happens with these big cams is that the car doesn't see as much vacuum at idle. So 2 things happen ... you FP will be higher than it would be under stock cam vacuum and the ECU will see less vacuum and throw in more fuel. There isn't a way around it without some sort of fuel system (whether piggy back or standalone).

PT Cruiser lifters should be ok. I think the PT rockers arms are ok (what I have) but you can always get the blackdog ones (if they still make them).

I'd go with 24lbers to start ... if you top those out then go bigger.

Mike has Crower 2s like I do.

The cam gears are for fine tuning. Fix a little here and there. Also if you feel like you're running a little too much overlap you can pull a couple of degress out with the gears or vice versa and add a couple of degrees of overlap.

As for the head I still feel that you should still do a street port. I don't think it will hurt anything. It may take a little away from your very high top end but not that much.

Yup, Crower stage 2's

You are mixing up ignition timing and valve timing. Valve timing is controlled by the cam gears. Ignition timing is set my the crank position sensor through the ECU.

The Mopar Perf./PT Cruiser lifters & rockers will do you just fine.
Clay(Black Dog Motorsports) got tired of dealing with the hassles and closed up shop, no more parts for the masses.

You can be fine with a street port. You will just see more up top with the race port. But the street port could help keep idle and low rpm a little more manageable.



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Last I heard you can still contact Clay personally from the Neon board and he can try to put you in for something custom made.

Notice, I said for the masses.

I don't know how much side business he is still doing for those he knows.



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una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Originally posted by Michael_97RS

Originally posted by DR1665 Also, would these negatively affect highway cruise? I don't want to look like an ass in the next shootout vid all broke down on the turnpike or anything. That would be embarrassing imo. ( :P snicker, chuckle )

Are you trying to say something?

"Roadside Idle Repair!!"

Well thanks to everyone for the quality input on this one! :thumbsup

I think I need to revise my plan and maybe get more of the headwork done up front so I don't have to have it machined twice. Here's my tentative plan after all this input (have I got it all or am I forgetting something?):

by Christmas
*AFX RACE ECU - 8100rpm redline (not that I'll go that high for a while)
*street port, 3angle, deck job (if I can do it, I'll drop in some PT bits)
*short ram - this might be a good idea at this point
*wheels - I have to buy new tires, I may as well get me a deal at WheelMax or something (thinking white sub-zero knock-offs) }(

by next spring
*SAFC - to help dial in idle
*Crane 18s - to help scare stock GSTs
*24lb injectors - to provide fuel to this monster
*better port/polish on the intake mani
*Jeep TB - about time I actually bought a new part :P
*ignition upgrade - any suggestions? I'm curious if I could get away with just getting that Howell unit and some decent wires.

And while the head's off, I'm losing the damn EGR. I don't know why I didn't leave it off during the rebuild. :shrug

Again, thanks everyone! I appreciate it a lot.

Later

Brian

Something else I forgot to mention.
-Vacuum reservoir, will come in handy during autocross, for your brakes.



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una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

I can grasp the principles involved with "vacuum resevoir," but I've honestly never heard of it before. Please tell me more! :9

Your brake booster runs off engine vacuum. The bigger the cams you have the less engine vacuum is created. A vacuum reservoir is basically an air-tight canister with a check valve that holds vacuum for the brake booster to draw on when the engine isn't providing much.

I'll be adding one to my car as well. I've seen a summit brand one, but am looking into what other brands there are out there. I'll keep you posted.



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una salus victus
Mods List: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

Thank you. That sounds like a worhtwhile investment. The more power I make, the more I'll be needing the brakes! :P