Hey everyone,

Wiseco pistons are totally phat! Check out this picture, it really shows the quality of the piston



Notice how the lower right hand corner of the piston has a big chunk taken out of the valve relief? That's QUALITY if I've ever seen it. Not only that, but look at that picture again. The guy who owns this claims it's a forged piston, but I just find that hard to believe. Doesn't it look cast to you? The finish on it is awful. Take a look at this picture here



notice again, that big chunk is still missing from the piston. I guess someone dropped their silly putty piston on the floor and decided to use it anyway. Also notice right on the lip of that piston that there's another chunk taken out of the piston? eek.

Then, look at the coated piston on the right. It's got ping-inducers all over the surface because the "ceramic" coating on the top is all rough and bubbly. It actually looks like the coating was sanded on, doesn't it? You can see a better picture of the uneven coating here



right next to the light from the flash, you can see the ping-inducers I talked about earlier. Man, too bad I don't have any pictures to show of the hyperpolychromeoly coatings on the sides of the pistons :(

Speaking of hyperpolychromeoly, the guy who made those pistons over at wiseco has never seen a 420a head in his entire life. The quench pads on that this are atrocious! Do they have *no* clue or what? I mean, the quench pads on a piston should look somewhat like the head that they're mated to. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of even having quench pads. Check out this head:



The pads on the piston shouldn't have a shoulder all around them like those wiseco's I showed you guys earlier. They should look cloverleafed on the intake side of the piston, and flat across the other side. Either that, or that shouldn't have even attempted quench pads at all.

And lets talk about alloys, shall we? Wiseco pistons are made out of the cheapest crap on the planet. I wouldn't put a Wiseco in my LAWN MOWER let alone a performance oriented engine. I think they stock Wiseco pistons over at Pep Boys. Maybe I'm wrong. Anywho, the aluminum that pistons are made of expands MORE if it's a higher quality piston. And Wiseco's have the least piston to wall clearance I've seen at like .003". So, for those of you who don't know what that is, it's like .0005" more piston to wall clearance than you'd account for using CAST pistons. That's how high quality Wiseco pistons are.

Silly Wiseco!

riiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes Thats why many highpowered cars are using Wiseco pistons without problems. Go check out Magnus motorsports. They Wiseco without any problems.

>riiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes Thats why many highpowered cars
>are using Wiseco pistons without problems. Go check out Magnus
>motorsports. They Wiseco without any problems.

Hey do some research before posting. Magnus uses Ross Pistons.

>riiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes Thats why many highpowered cars
>are using Wiseco pistons without problems. Go check out
>Magnus motorsports. They Wiseco without any problems.

You know what? I should add more to this.

Have you ever met Marco? Have you ever shaken that man's hand? Have you talked to Marco in person? Has he borrowed your tools? Have you ever even purchased anything from Marco? Did you even know that Marco owns Magnus?

Marco would be insulted by you accusing him of using Wiseco pistons. Even if Marco had a slip of bad judgement and called up Wiseco, he knows his so much about engines that he'd at least order it with the correct top on the piston. Not only that, but he'd make that piston so custom it wouldn't even be classified as a Wiseco anymore. If Marco were here he'd pimp slap so so quickly you'd be cryin'

my bad, maybe I am thinking of one of the people from Magnus, (MC55) who uses Wiseco pistons. but then maybe im wrong. I may be getting them confused with another place. Either way thats my fault. But, I do know there are people using Wiseco pistons and have pretty good amounts of power without any problems. either way, my bad on the magnus part.


also, id say that the reason you dont see any of the machine lines or marks is because the pistons are ceramic coated, so any of the lines or markings are covered up.

alos, how is that little chip going to affect anything? just curious

>But, I do know there are people using Wiseco pistons
>and have pretty good amounts of power without any problems.

what's a good amount of power to you? 250? 300?

>also, id say that the reason you dont see any of the machine
>lines or marks is because the pistons are ceramic coated

In the second picture I put up the piston on the left is not coated, the piston on the right is coated.

>alos, how is that little chip going to affect anything? just
>curious

If you buy a new set of pistons and they came like that you should send them back. Nicks, sharp edges and anything else that will cause a hotspot will also cause detonation. Not only that, but aluminum shouldn't do that. Aluminum is a soft metal, but any piston that's not made out of crappy pot metal won't nick like that unless you really screwed something up.

>what's a good amount of power to you? 250? 300?
more like 400+ whp, or 450+ crank hp. 250-300 is nice, but not what I would consider a lot.

>In the second picture I put up the piston on the left is not
>coated, the piston on the right is coated.

again, my bad, i thought about that after i posted this.


the part about the nick i dont know because I dont know much about that partof the engine, like combustion chamber stuff. I work with jet engines, so the combustors I'm used to are totally different. anyway


PS. nice sig, real mature

What the hell happened to those things, I just got somw wisecos and they look nothing liek that, mine were perfect, no chunks missing like that, that sucks.

hehe
those pistons do not look very "high quality"
the thing that confuses me about the surface finish of that piston is that there are no machine lines on it. usually, forged parts are forged to near final shape then finish machined to tolerance. This is the most effective way to produce a high precision part. JE does it this way. they have a base forging that is machined to finish. That is why their pistons have machine tool marks on them. I believe JE uses 2618 alloy which has an extremely high tensile strength when compared to other alloys.

lates
james

Glad to see my pictures are getting good use besides my own...
Awesome!
:thumbsup

heh. THEY ARE FREAKIN CERAMIC COATED. i assume cuz that is what someone else said. aren't those bill's pistons tho? where did i see these....

>heh. THEY ARE FREAKIN CERAMIC COATED.

Take a look again buckey. the one on the left isn't, the one on the right is.

>i assume cuz that is what someone else said.

you know what happens when you assume...

>aren't those bill's pistons tho? where did i see these....

Bill who?

>Bill who?

the guy you make fun of by your name, and in your sig.

why should anyone on here listen to you? i say this because one, your new here. simple. 2, you make fun of and are immature towards other board members.

not trying to be an a$$ just trying to figure out why

>why should anyone on here listen to you?

I didn't say they had to listen to me. Maybe they could read what I was saying, and come to a conclusion based on THIOUGHT instead of blindly following someone else?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not the one who tells people how things work incorrectly. coming on this forum preaching information that isn't accurate is highway robbery. The saddest part about it is that people like you get defensive because you don't want to actually know that everything some random guy you met on the Internet is WRONG.

> i say this because one, your new here.

So? That doesn't mean I don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground. That doesn't mean the people who have been here forever DO know their a$$ from a hole in the ground.

>2, you make fun of and are immature towards other board
>members.

I only make fun of people who are wrong. They deserve it. :thumbsup

"not trying to be an a$$" I'm just telling you how it is.

for some reason i found your last post funny. not really sure why though, maybe the last line or something. oh well, anyway. I was just wondering.

Nobody benefits from a troll.

ban his ass already

>Nobody benefits from a troll.

This topic provides valuable information. It shows people how bad some manufacturers are. It also shows how bad those pistons are.

What have you posted that's valuable lately?

>ban his ass already

What have YOU posted that's valuable lately?

This information is relevant to people considering buying pistons. Who'd buy hunks of crap? I'm just posting what I think of those pistons. Instead of bashing me about it, why don't you get into a discussion about the topic?

mototool your posts are retarded. you aren't helping anyone becasue NO one gives you enough credit to listen to what the fuck you are saying.

you might think you are helping people, but if someone wanted information on good pistons they would talk to someone who knew what the fuck they were talking about

not some childish girl who no one likes or respects.

dinown his ass back to the stone age
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

Uberingram> I bow down to the Geo

>mototool your posts are retarded.

thanks. I value your input and will be taking that into account on my next post.

>you aren't helping anyone becasue NO one gives you enough credit to
>listen to what the fuck you are saying.

that's not my fault.

>you might think you are helping people, but if someone wanted
>information on good pistons they would talk to someone who
>knew what the fuck they were talking about

Point out one place where I don't know what I'm talking about. Sorry, but all the info in this thread that's been posted by me is correct and accurate. If I posted anything that's false, why don't you point it out?

>not some childish girl who no one likes or respects.

I curtsy to you, kind gentleman. You're right, "nobody" likes or respects me.

Jump on the crappy forged piston bandwagon. I thought this topic was SUPPOSED to be about how bad Wiseco pistons are? It's since fallen way off target. That's too bad, there's some valueable information in this post.

indeed, sorry about jackin the thread

carry on gentlemen.

my opinion = get CP's
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

Uberingram> I bow down to the Geo

>my opinion = get CP's

That's what I'm talking about. Get a set of CP's, or JE's, or Ross. Don't buy crappy pistons.

Crappy pistons straight up suck. Pistons that look like the ones in this thread are horrible, and defeat the purpose of putting "special purpose" pistons in your engine.

If you curtsy like I do, maybe you'll just want to run 4 pounds of boost and stay on the stock internals. But, there's nothing worse than spending money on pistons and ending up with a heaping steamy pile like that.

I mean, who sells that stuff anyway? They should be kicked.

So what about what I post. At least I use my own SN.

I'll gladly call idiocy on myself in honesty, bitch.

>>Nobody benefits from a troll.
>
>This topic provides valuable information. It shows people how
>bad some manufacturers are. It also shows how bad those
>pistons are.
>
>What have you posted that's valuable lately?


Do a search. Or better yet head to the 1g/4g section and look at pretty much any post. I'm sure you'll find a "valuable" post or two there.

my god, this thread is getting long. :7

I still don't get what happened to those pistons, did you get them like that or did they break in your motor

the pistons in both pics are ceramic coated ud know that if u were intellegent as u portray
the left one is ceramic un polished the right is polished...

there is an old skool trick to polishing the piston tops to reflect more heat in the combustion chamber...

the piston did not come with the gouge in it...

so if u knew what u were talking about ud know that JE and Weisco are the same Company And produce nearly Identical pistons, must mean JE are crap...

but JE uses a stronger alloy then CP must mean they are crap...

Ross is behind in machine work technology.... Arias is the only original piston maufactuer with their patented tapper skirt design ona forged piston...


Bill

>the pistons in both pics are ceramic coated ud know that if u
>were intellegent as u portray

Sorry, I have a rough time differentiating between crap and POLISHED crap.

>there is an old skool trick to polishing the piston tops to
>reflect more heat in the combustion chamber...

Uh, what? yeah just like the 150% less friction old skool trick at 750rpm, right? I think the mother's polish fumes got to you.

Imagine what the high gloss shine will do at 7500rpm? :thumbsup

>the piston did not come with the gouge in it...

Did you drop it? :wary

>so if u knew what u were talking about ud know that JE and
>Weisco are the same Company And produce nearly Identical
>pistons, must mean JE are crap...

Right - and that means because FORD owns Jaguar that Jag's are pieces of shit, right? It also means because the government controls both the police and FBI that the FBI is no "better" than the cops?

>but JE uses a stronger alloy then CP must mean they are
>crap...

where'd you get that? You're off in your own little world there. JE and CP use the same alloy.

You're so off in your thinking anyway. Where'd you get that "better" materials expand less? Aluminum alloys of higher quality expand MORE when heated. It happens. Deal with it and account for it. The Wiseco's call for .003" expansion, which is *nothing* as far as a forged piston goes.

>Ross is behind in machine work technology....

They are? Have you been out to their shop, or did you hear that seventeenth hand? Just curious.

> Arias is the only original piston maufactuer with their patented
> tapper skirt design on a forged piston...

uh, all skirts taper. it's part of their design. As for Arian pistons, if you're all up on their jock why don't you use those in your block?

I'd bet any piston manufacturer worth their weight in forgings each owns at least one patent. to say ONE manufacturer has ONE patent on ONE thing of a piston is totally stupid. It's not even worth mentioning. I'd hope that ALL piston manufacturers would have AT LEAST one patent. If they don't they're not innovative enough to do anything but copy someone elses work.

Troll or no, i think MotoFool is fighting a losing battle here. That's some serious shit, Tool... especially considering you're right.

This is cool...

1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS 10th Anniversary OZ Edition
Check Out My Site For Pix
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/EclipseRaceR/MyEclipse/VIS%20CF%20Hood/

NOT COOL! wtf? why are we arguing? nice. thats great. we got someone who can't differentiate between polished ceramic coated pistons, and unpolished unceramic coated pistons. wtf??????? and as far as him going "bin ladin" on weisco for finding pictures of weisco pistons that weren't even like that when weisco sent them. d00d. here it is in black and white...those are colors for your information. i just want to clear up some things for you.

1. STFU!
2. Now that is said and i have you duck taped to some rail road tracks, the pistons pictures you dug up from somewhere to create a totally meaningless post were NOT like that when deleivered. so if there are any problems with them, its not weisco's fault. you can't even see the pistons, they are coated! stfu!
3. You need to stfu!
4. Don't move, the train will be by soon. Have a nice squish!


EDIT: how many posts did it take for you to piss me off? ONE! how pathetic is that. you are the first person on here that has really irritated me. do people hate you in real life? do you have a gilfriend? oh wait. nevermind no offense. and don't come on here posting pictures of your Jessica simpson girlfriend pictures!!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bye beech.

wow......

yeah.... i feel much better.

nm.

all you need is love

stop fighting children and mototool...please stfu before people get so pissed they pop hemmorhoids and beat you over the head with them

_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

Uberingram> I bow down to the Geo

When it comes time to go to class, you need to listen to the teacher, not the student... I'm with Dino on this one :)

anyways, I would say that the amount a piston expands is directly proportional to the silicon content, as opposed to using the word "quality" because unfortunately that can be pretty subjective when u are talking to motorheads. the trade off with changing the silicon content is higher durability (more resistance to detonation) vs more expansion of the metal as it heats up (so you'll need more piston - wall clearance, thus more piston slap). It's up to you whichever you prefer.

For the record I did not have these pistons machined for me. I bought these from bob stockum, the only other guy that is building custom parts for the 2.4's(back last fall)

Also I never said that wesico were the best pistons out there they were cost effective for the time that i bought them last year, and the only thing available without waiting 4-8weeks for custom pistons that cost over 200$ more..

Find me a piston with rings for the same price of 425$ that is better then the weiscos...

I sell JE's asa dealer my cost on custom pistons would have been mimimum 125$ more...

CP was not very wide spread last fall... I thought about having Ross or Arias build them but for the price it was not worth it due to the fact this is only my starter motor to last until the next one is built to be faster..

If you dont like the weiscos so much DONT BUY them, stay with your Ross pistons, even though Ross doesn't have a shelfed piston for the 2.4...

I still find it funny that you can only say piston coatings are crap you never prove your theorys...

No piston coatings wont produce more power, but with a friction modifying coating you reduce the drag in the motor signifigantly..
If you dont beleive me then prove me wrong with scientific evidence that shows 110% that a moly coated motor will not last longer and free up lost power in friction..

Bill

Mototool do u wnat me to post pics of the Forged(ooops by your terms they are cast pistons) Je's(2.0 not 2.4 pistons also) i had coated they dont have any miss haps in the coating would that make you satisfied?

Bill

EZ

>anyways, I would say that the amount a piston expands is directly
>proportional to the silicon content, as opposed to using the
>word "quality" because unfortunately that can be pretty
>subjective when u are talking to motorheads.

You're right. I wasn't getting too specific about it because chances are my stuff would either be deleted, or ignored. The higher the Silicon content of the piston the more it will expand. Also, the higher the silicon content, the better heat resistance, and more durability. And, the less they suck in general.

>For the record I did not have these pistons machined for me. I
>bought these from bob stockum, the only other guy that is building
>custom parts for the 2.4's(back last fall)

You didn't even use parts you sell in an engine that you're putting together :wary Uh, yeah, I'd buy parts from you.

>Also I never said that wesico were the best pistons out there they
>were cost effective for the time that i bought them last year, and
>the only thing available without waiting 4-8weeks for custom pistons
>that cost over 200$ more..

You bought them last year, but STILL aren't using them, so why would waiting 4 to 8 weeks matter?

>Find me a piston with rings for the same price of 425$ that is
>better then the weiscos...

You, being a dealer, should get JE's at cost, shouldn't you? I wouldn't waste my time looking for you, anyway. You'd probably end up carrying them, and then you'd just be freeloading and you'd end up making some cash off me, like you do these forums anyway.

>CP was not very wide spread last fall...

CP has been around for years. They were formed back in '98 right after Wiseco bought JE. A few guys from JE left that company because they didn't like new management, and went and started CP. Anyway, 1998 was *5* years ago. You just didn't know about them.

>I thought about having Ross or Arias build them but for the price it
>was not worth it due to the fact this is only my starter motor to
>last until the next one is built to be faster..

And since you don't actually know enough about pistons to be INNOVATIVE and have them make a custom piston for your customers, you decided just to be cheap and buy Wiseco's from the other guy who already built and sold parts for them. Way to innovate :thumbsup

>If you dont like the weiscos so much DONT BUY them, stay with your
>Ross pistons, even though Ross doesn't have a shelfed piston for the
> 2.4...

If I want a steamy pile I'll go produce one in the bathroom. I wouldn't use a set of Wiseco pistons as ashtrays if I could. If someone gave them to me, I'd sneak over to your house and install them in your computer. Oh, nevermind, you've already got a set.
As for Ross - I don't have Ross, I don't want Ross. I stated earlier that Marco at Magnus uses ROSS, NOT WISECO. Since you're hard of reading, you probably missed that, too.

>I still find it funny that you can only say piston coatings are crap
>you never prove your theorys...

You never even read other people's posts, do you? Yesterday I said "coatings that you spray on will flake off" and I still stand by that. Coatings applied to pistons from a spray gun aren't BONDED to the aluminum in any way. You need to actually DO something to get the coating to stick to them. this should clear it up: cheap ass "coatings" don't do anything for you but flake off.

>No piston coatings wont produce more power, but with a friction
>modifying coating you reduce the drag in the motor signifigantly..

They won't? The way you carry on about 900% less friction at only 750 rpm! "Imagine what that'll do at 7500 rpm?" ... probably nothing. You just said it yourself.

How thick is your moly coating? You spray it on with your $650 HPLV gun, so it's not going to be all that even, or all that thin. Do you account for your coating with your machine work?

>If you dont beleive me then prove me wrong with scientific evidence that shows 110% that a moly
>coated motor will not last longer and free up lost power in friction..

You're a dumbass. "No piston coatings wont produce more power" and then the next paragraph you say "prove me wrong with scientific evidence ... that a moly coated motor will not last longer and free up lost power in friction.." You should really choose one idea and stick with it. Which one is it?

>do u wnat me to post pics of the Forged(ooops by your terms they are
> cast pistons) Je's(2.0 not 2.4 pistons also)

No eye wood liek u to youse pr0p3r gr4mm0r avory 1nce en a wile. Sp34l1ing th1ngz g0od werkz 2! I said your Wiseco's LOOK cast. They're owned by the same parent company but that's a far cry from "basically the same" - Are your siblings just like you because you have the same parents? God have mercy on your parents if that's the case.

>i had coated they dont have any miss haps in the coating would that
>make you satisfied?

No. It wouldn't. A shop's car is pretty indicative of the shop's quality. If you cut corners on your own vehicle, why wouldn't you on customer cars? Anyway, these wiseco's suck, that's the topic of discussion.

There's only one way you could satisfy me... Alright, maybe two.

>>If you dont beleive me then prove me wrong with scientific
>evidence that shows 110% that a moly
>>coated motor will not last longer and free up lost power in
>friction..
>
>You're a dumbass. "No piston coatings wont produce more power"
>and then the next paragraph you say "prove me wrong with
>scientific evidence ... that a moly coated motor will not last
>longer and free up lost power in friction.." You should really
>choose one idea and stick with it. Which one is it?

Engine coatings won't *produce* power directly, but some assist in reducing friction which *usually* and *hopefully* will increase power output.

That's Bill's point... and that's a true statement. And you accuse HIM of being reading impaired. :rolleyes

Hey motoTOOL... what's in your engine? I'm curious to see your work since you came onto our forums talking big talk. You may not respect Bill's work, and you don't have too, but stop hiding behind a mockup of his username and reveil yourself and your work dude. Sheesh!

>That's Bill's point... and that's a true statement. And you
>accuse HIM of being reading impaired. :rolleyes

Yeah but it's all half-assed. Bill wants to reduce friction here, and "free up" horsepower there, but only using coatings. He didn't go through and reengineer the entire block to make use of every available friction reducing thing he could have done. Just coated them, raved about it, and called it good.

Imagine what'd it do at 7500rpm if he did EVERYTHING he could do, instead of just coating his skirts with Moly?! :thumbsup

>Hey motoTOOL... what's in your engine?

Well, you see. I don't actually have one yet. I've been saving up my allowance so that I can buy a briggs and straton for my junior dragster. I've got $10 right now, so it'll be another 4 and a half years until I can actually get me engine. When it's done I'll be the fastest .4 liter, it'll be fun! I'm making my own turbo kit for it too! it'll have a log manifold that's been mig welded even!

>I'm curious to see your work since you came onto our forums talking
>big talk.

I used JB weld to weld all the seams on my intake manifold - and I also made it so that it has a "Magnus" look to it. I also threaded all the barb fittings right into the 1/8" aluminum. It works great, until I hit boost!

>Troll or no, i think MotoFool is fighting a losing battle
>here. That's some serious shit, Tool... especially
>considering you're right.

Right or not... he's still a troll. :P

In all seriousness though, he needs banned IMO... 2GNT needs to live up to it's name.

9D9 Set a bad example....tisk...tisk...

1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS 10th Anniversary OZ Edition
Check Out My Site For Pix
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/EclipseRaceR/MyEclipse/VIS%20CF%20Hood/

>You're a dumbass. "No piston coatings wont produce more power" and >then the next paragraph you say "prove me wrong with scientific >evidence ... that a moly coated motor will not last longer and free >up lost power in friction.." You should really choose one idea and >stick with it. Which one is it?

Bill is right here. Coatings wont PRODUCE more power, they would FREE UP lost power just as using underdrive pulleys and lightened flywheels free up power. Im sure every one would agree to that using lighter parts puts less drag on the engine. Reducing friction puts less drag on the engine. Im sure you even know that. Make sure you also READ what is being said right. Also, I believe he said they were baked on and NOT sprayed on.

I think so far everyone in this post has read something the wrong way and then someone ended saying crap about it.

Also, grow up!! Quit typing on that name and use your real name. You may know a lot about this kind of stuff, but not many will take you serisouly because your being immature. You may be right about this stuff, but your being immature by coming on here and using a name and attacking another 2gnt memeber. Yes you are atacking him because of your sig and becuase of your name. Your name is soley to make fun of Motofool. dont gives us crap saying otherwise.

>>You're a dumbass.
>Bill is right here.

Yeah, he's right. Sure. He can't even make up his mind! :wary

>Coatings wont PRODUCE more power, they would FREE UP lost power just
> as using underdrive pulleys and lightened flywheels free up power.

uh-huh. You guys over analize things. Do you think bill's going to end up using underdrive pulleys, a lightened flywheel and everything else he can he help him free up horsepower? If he did that you'd see PROPER quench on the tops of those pistons. Not only that, but he wouldn't be using Wiseco's because they're like the heaviest piston ever produced.

>Im sure every one would agree to that using lighter parts puts less
>drag on the engine.

Uh, no. Lighter parts rotating result in less rotating mass. If you wanted to go into some "hypothetical" situation about weights of things, you wouldn't even want to coat anything because it'd add a few extra grams here and there. I don't think he's running titanium rods, either.

>Reducing friction puts less drag on the engine.

Okay, well, I bet Bill is using really thin rings, and dry sumping his engine so that he can get the least friction anywhere. Here's a clue for you: The rings cause way more friction on the cylinders than the skirts of the pistons do.

> Make sure you also READ what is being said right.

Why? you don't READ what I'm saying at all. Bill's just pissed off because I just might be right. Crappy coatings don't work.

>Also, I believe he said they were baked on and NOT sprayed on.

ahem. No, he said "$650 HVLP Gun" ... do you know what those are used for? AUTOMOTIVE PAINT.

>Also, grow up!!

Wait, hold on, let me throw a tantrum.

WaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhh.

Okay, I'm done now.

>Quit typing on that name and use your real name.

This is my name. I'm using it. I chose it because I like motors and tools. How come nobody believes that? :roll

>You may know a lot about this kind of stuff, but not
>many will take you serisouly because your being immature.

I just pointed out the fact that those are crappy coatings on crappy pistons, and everyone gets in an uproar about it. So what, big deal? Wiseco's have no thought put into them, and they're made out of crappy metal. On top of that, some guy went and sprayed on that 1600 degree "ceramic" based paint, then POLISHED it, and he thinks it's going to actually DO something. That's like getting your piston powdercoated. Duh.

>Yes you are atacking him because of your sig and
>becuase of your name.

w00d u by3 sum3th1ng fr0m a gy3 th4t c4nt sp34ll n3th1ng r1t3?

>Your name is soley to make fun of Motofool.

Were you with me when I registered? How do you know? He makes fun of his own name. it's got FOOL in it.

>Wait, hold on, let me throw a tantrum.

>WaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhh.

>Okay, I'm done now.

Ha, now that was funny. Made me giggle. Anyway.

Ligther parts make less rotational mass which makes less drag. Dont attempt to argue this point. It may not necessarily be a big difference but there is still a difference. Also, I was simply saying less friction can free up power and let the engine rev faster just as pulleys and lightened flywheels do. I never said he was using them.

Ok, fine, he used the gun or whatever, at which, I didnt think HE coated them. I thought he had someone else doing it.

Also, your name is making fun of his and I bet that everyone on here would agree to that. And yeah you probbaly do like tools and motors but you still ar emaking fun of his name. You cant prove that otherwise.

Anyway, Im done with that. I want to hear what you think one should do then. Such as, what pistons to use, why, if coatings are bad, why then? how do you free up power or make less friction?

oh, one other thing. This is a message board and people have to type to post on here. So if someone happens to make a spelling mistake, its probably because they mistyped it. I make mistakes a lot becuase I type fast and I dont always catch my mistake. Oh and, someone doe snot need to spell a word perfectly for someone to read it and heres why... kind of funny if you ask me.

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.
The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.
Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

on that note, how about we start over here and not attack each other and the crap we say, but attempt to have a somewhat decent conversation which would require BOTH of us to work on it and not just one of us. sound good to you?

one more thing, why is this the ONLY thread (other than the one that was already locked) that you are talking in? makes me wonder

>Ligther parts make less rotational mass which makes less drag.

What's your definition of Drag? If it's this:

"(1) : the retarding force acting on a body (as an airplane) moving through a fluid (as air) parallel and opposite to the direction of motion (2) : friction between engine parts; also : retardation due to friction"

then you're not correct. weight doesn't neccesarily cause friction. I can add 100 pounds to my flywheel, and it'll take longer to rev, but it will not be causing drag due to friction.

>Dont attempt to argue this point.

That's your problem. #1: any point can be argued. #2: you saying something like that under the assumption that you're right only leads to a point to be argued. #3: this point is arguable, but only because you're not completely correct in saying "Ligther parts make less rotational mass which makes less drag." which isn't, in fact, correct. Then you tell me I can't argue your incorrect point? You've been smoking the crack a little too long.

>It may not necessarily be a big difference but there is still a
>difference.

How do you know? Is it measurable? Is it even worth it? $100+ dollars for .0000001 whp? You get the same gains when it's one degree colder outside.

>I never said he was using them.

Okay. My point is that if he's doing one thing and not another he's trying to "free up" horsepower in vain.

>Ok, fine, he used the gun or whatever, at which, I didnt think
>HE coated them. I thought he had someone else doing it.

He said he didn't coat them. He also said that they use a $650 gun to coat them.

>Anyway, Im done with that. I want to hear what you think one
>should do then. Such as, what pistons to use, why, if coatings
>are bad, why then? how do you free up power or make less
>friction?

Putting a turbo on your car makes all this other stuff not matter very much. how come nobody understands that? If your car is tuned properly, coatings do NOTHING for you. If you think you're going to burn a hole in your piston, or your stuff pings all the time, that's where the coatings help. PROPERLY applied high quality coatings, that is.

>oh, one other thing. This is a message board and people have
>to type to post on here. So if someone happens to make a
>spelling mistake, its probably because they mistyped it.

Proper grammar in typing, as in speaking, is a sign of intelligence. If some guy on the Internet is talking to you about what you should do to your car, and is trying to get your business, wouldn't you feel more comfortable if he sounded intelligent? I would.

>I make mistakes a lot becuase I type fast and I dont always
>catch my mistake.

Okay. We all make mistakes, and live with them. But when u type thngs lke ths b cuz its eezier 2 tpe thn u r n0t misspealling th1ngs, u r b3ing LAZY. b cuz itz EZ R 2 tpye lke a sl0b end uther ppl n3ed 2 dec0d3 whut ur s4yn. C whut I m33n?

>on that note, how about we start over here and not attack each
>other and the crap we say, but attempt to have a somewhat
>decent conversation which would require BOTH of us to work on
>it and not just one of us. sound good to you?

Yeah, you should really work on it. If you do that, then I guess we can have a decent conversation.

So, How was your day today? Was it good? Mine was. Thank you for asking :thumbsup

>one more thing, why is this the ONLY thread (other than the
>one that was already locked) that you are talking in?

Beecuz thugh sheit doughsent knead two hyt thugh phan n evory thophic han twogeee enntee.

>then you're not correct. weight doesn't neccesarily cause
>friction. I can add 100 pounds to my flywheel, and it'll take
>longer to rev, but it will not be causing drag due to
>friction.

Maybe I should have worded it differently. Less weight will let it rev faster but not necessarily creat less friction. My bad on that part. However though, the frictional force is equal to the coefficient of friction x the normal force. So a heavier object will have a greater frictional force on it. Hence, where the lighter parts and less friction came into play. Theres more to this and stuff but Im getting ready to go to lunch and dont feel like typing it all out.


>That's your problem. #1: any point can be argued. #2: you
>saying something like that under the assumption that you're
>right only leads to a point to be argued. #3: this point is
>arguable, but only because you're not completely correct in
>saying "Ligther parts make less rotational mass which makes
>less drag." which isn't, in fact, correct. Then you tell me I
>can't argue your incorrect point? You've been smoking the
>crack a little too long.

True any point can be argued, just as there is a question for every answer....not sure how that fits into this but whatever.

>How do you know? Is it measurable? Is it even worth it? $100+
>dollars for .0000001 whp? You get the same gains when it's one
>degree colder outside.

I would say that anything to create less friction would be good. Hell they constantly try ot make oils to create less friction, why not try coatings or certain materials to create less friction? just a thought.

>Okay. My point is that if he's doing one thing and not another
>he's trying to "free up" horsepower in vain.

ok, i see your point now, but, I would do some things to my car to free up weight but not others. I eventully want to get a lightened flywheel but i dont want to get underdrive pulleys for various reasons. Yeah a lightened flywheel is probably the biggest or best way to do this but some of the other things i dont like or for whatever reasons.

>Putting a turbo on your car makes all this other stuff not
>matter very much. how come nobody understands that? If your
>car is tuned properly, coatings do NOTHING for you. If you
>think you're going to burn a hole in your piston, or your
>stuff pings all the time, that's where the coatings help.
>PROPERLY applied high quality coatings, that is.

Ok, thats all I wanted to know.

>Yeah, you should really work on it. If you do that, then I
>guess we can have a decent conversation.

I did say both of us, but less just drop that...of which ignore this line.

>So, How was your day today? Was it good? Mine was. Thank you
>for asking :thumbsup

Mine is great actually. This is my last week of co-op before I go back to school. So working about 830-3 with long lunches is nice, and still getting paid for 40 hours is cool too. :thumbsup

>Beecuz thugh sheit doughsent knead two hyt thugh phan n evory
>thophic han twogeee enntee.

Understandable.... :D

Tool- just don't buy from him if you don't like his shit. He's at least made an effort to help fellow 2gnt members. I have one of Bill's turbo manifolds and have made a large amount of power with it.

Wiseco isn't the best piston out there and he never claimed that it was. He never said anyone HAS to coat their pistons (which need sprayed on before it's baked on, not one or the other). But, the parts he is providing us are better than stock and are cost effective.

Please take your immature JB welded intake comments and such nonsense to the pits. I don't really care how much you know, I'm tired of seeing your name already... and this is only your second post. :rolleyes

I wish you actually did know what you were talking about... maybe then you'd try helping people instead of trying to cause controversy.

Just curious if Mototool is canadian since he claims to know Marco from Magnus. Also I think he brings up some good points, sometimes it is good to call someone out on an issue. Some of you may remember when Shawn from NER, Skrilla, and to an extent Wyatt were all looked upon very highly by the 2GNT community untill they started screwing people over. Im not saying Motofool is in any way tring to do this and I dont think Mototool should be banned.

>Just curious if Mototool is canadian

Eh buddy, I'm not Canadian, eh? Screw you buddy!

What's this all aboot??

yeah, im curious as to how he knows Marco. or anyone from Magnus Motorsports

Well, I am the other Bill from GotTude.com. I can't say that I appreciate the parody of my company name. Just because you do not appreciate the knowledge of one of the partners gives you no right to parody the good name that I have worked (and helped) to create.
I see that you do have much knowledge, and you know the right people. Now, rather then accusing you of being a Canuckistanian like Marco Passente, I will actually ask how you know Marco. Would you, by chance, be a member of NABR (your devout attention to grammar and spelling indicate such)? And if so, were you at the shootout?
All bantering aside, building a motor, as I am sure that you well realize, is a comedy of compromise. Many factors must be weighed and balanced (pun notwithstanding), from rotational mass verses adequate inertia to launch, internal friction verses rotating mass, to price verses power. Certain factors must yield to others. I would be interested in seeing a motor with Ti rods, superlight pistons, counterweights removed, underdriven pulleys all around, and paper-light flywheel be able to launch in any non traction-impaired scenario. Sometimes, it is more important to maintain a bit of rotational inertia to actually be able to get the car moving, and that is when the issue of coatings comes into play. Making the best of the motor by reducing internal friction without breaking the bank and making a motor that is next to impossible to launch with slicks.
I have no experience with the shop who did the coatings on Bill's motor, but I have heard (secondhand knowledge here), that the shop is reputable. I asked Bill about the bubbling on the pistons, and he wasn't thrilled to see it.
The biggest compromise that had to be made in putting his motor together was cost. He started this business because the job market REALLY sucks where he lives, and the cost of living is not terribly high. This translates into low wages, which are not conducive to making a lot of power from a small motor, especially a 4 cylinder. So, he started the business with no startup capitol, and has done his best to make it grow. When I came on board, I wanted to increase the variety of products available for the 2GNT community, and felt that it would be best to do so with an established, but fledgling, company. If this is a problem to you, kindly keep your opinion to yourself. If you have any questions regarding the company, please contact me privately. If you have any questions about our products, please feel free to post publicly, and we will do our best to address your concerns, and possibly explain where we are coming from.
I get the impression that you were not terribly impressed with the intake manifold that we are trying to develop. Please note that the pictures that you saw were only from the prototype stage, and far from a finished product. The finished product will not have holes tapped directly into 1/8" Al. There will be a plate in place which will increase the thickness to 1/4" at the very least. This manifold is another work influenced by compromise. Will it outperform a perfectly engineered sheetmetal manifold? Probably not. Will it be considerably cheaper? You can bank on it. This is a stage one manifold, designed for people who want a large bang for their buck. I am currently working the math on another style of manifold that is usually referred to as a "reverse collector" manifold. I do not have the dimensions ready, and the diagrams are not at the point where they can be publicly posted. This manifold, however, could be set up and tuned for any RPM, but I am doing the math for a high RPM high turbo setup. There will be a fuel rail of similar principle to go along with the manifold. The goal is to have a manifold and fuel rail that will reduce or eliminate hot cylinders and cold cylinders.
I hope that I was able to show you that this business is innovative, creating new products and using new designs. However, we must be able to appreciate the tight fisted people who are not willing (or able!) to drop $600-$700 for a properly made manifold, or $2000+ for the best internals out there. In a perfect world, we would focus on the best of the best. In the real world, however, compromises must be made.
-=B-=

edit: nevermind...

this is all so bunk!!! wtf! here is where i sit now...


MotoTool. Good job. you found a problem. Yeah, I have no problem discussing things like this. just don't talk shit when you do it!!! state your opinion. not your vulgar/profain vocabulary. When someone resorts to making fun of them because they make typos, thats really lame. I don't think he should be banned. I think he should quit talking smack and i as well. Mototool, you need to argue about something that is relevent! someone will make a statement about pistons, and you'll counter it by saying, no way, because mcdonalds french fries are better! you might be right but noone cares. just like the coatings, they WERE NOT SPRAYED! so leave it alone. So what If he wants to make his engine have a few minor performance details such as ceramic/moly coatings.??? do you really care? Does he HAVE to make his engine all out drag? i highly doubt you even own a car. It seems to me most of the things you say, come straight from google.com my friend. Bill already stated above that this is just an engine that will be nice, but not as nice as the one he will be making later. so you don't need to get after him about using all the bleeding edge parts. he can use whatever the hell he wants. its not being sold to you is it??? and as far as him not putting parts into his car that he sells, didn't he say he was on a budget? yeah... weisco are a bang for the buck piston. and if you don't agree, that is nice. just like eagle rods. they are nice rods, not the best, but they will work just freakin fine. why don't you get after every other memeber on this board for not using the eagle extremes??? You just need to lay off a bit and so do i. I just find that most of your views have been twisted and deformed... Cut to da CHEESE BRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

late.

>Yeah, I have no problem discussing things like this. just don't talk
>shit when you do it!!!

I'm not talking shit about crappy pistons or coatings. No amount of discussion will change the fact that I think they're both poor in this case.

>state your opinion. not your vulgar/profain vocabulary.

I curtsy to you, too, find gentleman. :thumbsup Point out the vulgarific profanities in anything that I posted? I see. Yes, that wasn't posted by me. You'll notice most of the posts that AREN'T mine are filled with profanities. Unless you consider "curtsy" a profane word.

>When someone resorts to making fun of them because they make typos,
>thats really lame.

I know it is. They're not typos, though. They're deliberate. Being lazy isn't a typo, it's a disease.

>someone will make a statement about pistons, and you'll
>counter it by saying, no way, because mcdonalds french fries
>are better!

I like Burger King frys, thank you very much. They're made with peanut oil which mades them stronger than McFrys, and they cut through the windage better than McFrys. Did I say windage? I meant Ketchup.

>you might be right but noone cares. just like the coatings, they
>WERE NOT SPRAYED!

How do you know they weren't sprayed? Did you ask Bill yourself? I did. He told me they were put on with a "$650 HPVL gun".

>do you really care?

No. But other people need to realize that coatings aren't the end all solution to their performance upgrades.

>Does he HAVE to make his engine all out drag?

No. Does he have to try to sell things to everyone on 2gnt?

>i highly doubt you even own a car.

You're right, I don't. I don't even know what an automobile is. I'm into french fries. I make internal combustion engines out of potatoes and peanut oil.

I'm so surprised you found out that I work at Burger King. Not to offend any of you who do work at Burger King.

>It seems to me most of the things you say, come straight from
>google.com my friend.

Really? Google is psychic? Can you quote where I found my information? I mean, if you said it's all on Google, you should have no problem finding it.

Maybe my information really comes from knowing what I'm talking about?
I got that definition of Drag from Merriam-Webster. I wanted to make sure we all knew what the definition was, so I posted it here.

>Bill already stated above that this is just an engine that will be
>nice, but not as nice as the one he will be making later.

That's funny. No, really, it's my vaporware thing that Bill didn't get before. He asked where he could pick some up, but it looks like he's already got some.

>he can use whatever the hell he wants. its not being sold to you
>is it???

He's trying. I bet if I asked about them, he'd reply with "c4ll m3 up, I'll g1v3 y4 my sp34c14l pr1c1ng 0n th3m!"

>yeah... weisco are a bang for the buck piston.

so are stockers.

>and if you don't agree, that is nice.

I don't. It is Nice.

I wouldn't use Eagle rods if I had the chance to. I'd use french fries.

>You just need to lay off a bit and so do i. I just
>find that most of your views have been twisted and deformed...

which ones? I'll be happy to rewrite the sentences so they say the same thing using different words for you.

>Cut to da CHEESE BRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cut the cheese? no, that wasn't me. Maybe it was your dog? :thumbsup

Are you upset because you have Wiseco Pistons or something? This is a real question, I'm not being a smart prick about it or anything like that. Really, why are you so upset about all of this?

I dont mind a professional arguement about anything but you are not being professional and just want to stir up shit...

When you get to a question you cannot answer you bring out stupid things like calling forged pistons silly putty and not even usging the proper term for coatings,

Just cause you dont like coatings doesn't mean they dont work...
your either hiding the fact that friction additives work or you just dont want to loose an argument..

and if coatings dont work why does 80% of ring manufactueres use Moly coating on rings on the edge that touches the cylinder walls...(mind u these are sprayed on and baked also but thats irrevant, cause all moly coatings and ceramic coatings are well 90% of the ones in use today)

and how can a properly tuned motor reduce friction it cant!
ceramic coating is just a barrier to help with the problem of melting pistons for a number of reason the #1 reason is for bad tuning...

people that are running as much boost as i plan to often strive to get the most out of what they can...

with paying the cheaper price for a weisco piston and having it coated it will last longer toward detonation then a higher quality piston not coated..


yea im sure you can find a small detail in anything i say that can be twisted 1000 ways...

If your want to make this a more professional level and remove the childish remarks from all sides, I ask for you to kindly change your signature to something more appropriate. If you dont Like my products fine there are other vendors.

Bill

>I dont mind a professional arguement about anything but you
>are not being professional and just want to stir up shit...

u r beeing prufessunale? Eye kudent t3ll.

>When you get to a question you cannot answer you bring out
>stupid things like calling forged pistons silly putty

That's an insult. Silly putty is a better alloy than what they make Wiseco's out of. Okay, I'll be prudent. What questions did I not answer?

>and not even usging the proper term for coatings,

You mean hyperprochromeloly isn't correct? You got me confused when you had your moly / polymoly / chromeoly runaround. Maybe you can clear that up for me?

"Chromoly is a metal, it is a baked on finish and isn't far from 4030 Chromoly." Actually, that's not a direct quote, I cleaned it up, and made it sound better, but you get the idea.

So, you don't use that do you? You use a Moly that you just spray on and watch dry, and I correct?

>Just cause you dont like coatings doesn't mean they dont
>work...

I didn't say I don't like coatings. I said I don't like CHEAP coatings.

>your either hiding the fact that friction additives work or
>you just dont want to loose an argument..

I don't loose things very often. That sounds painful. But I think you actually tried 2 saye "lose" as in "not win" and you're right. I don't like to lose arguments. I wasn't trying to start one, because I stated my OPINION in the first post about this topic... and that topic was? You're right. It was crappy pistons with crappy coatings.

>and if coatings dont work why does 80% of ring manufactueres
>use Moly coating on rings on the edge that touches the
>cylinder walls...

I don't know why 80% of ring manufactueres does uses them. Your moly coating is so thin and weak that it would be scraped off almost instantly on the edge of the ring anyway. Which ring manufacturers does this, I'm just curious. Do they use the same coatings you do?

>and how can a properly tuned motor reduce friction it cant!

I didn't say it couldn't. On a turbocharged application, though, the friction, and the "flow" of air is all relatively irrelevant. I think we're talking about different coatings.

>ceramic coating is just a barrier to help with the problem of
>melting pistons for a number of reason the #1 reason is for
>bad tuning...

Why else would you melt a piston, other than bad tuning? It all comes down to how much fuel someone forgot to put into their air:fuel mixture along with the air that they put in. That all comes down to tuning.

>people that are running as much boost as i plan to often
>strive to get the most out of what they can...

How much boost do you plan to run? I run 30psi on CAST pistons. I know how to tune my lawnmower, though, so I guess that's a whole different story? By that rationale, you must run like 50 bajillion pound of boost, right?

>with paying the cheaper price for a weisco piston and having
>it coated it will last longer toward detonation then a higher
>quality piston not coated..

Uhh How can you prove that? I'd take a high quality non coated piston any day over a low quality coated one. On top of that, I'd take any uncoated piston any day over one that YOU had coated, with all those bubbles in your ceramic coatings. eek.

>I ask for you to kindly change your signature to something more
>appropriate.

Is it the "w3 d0 stuff 2 ur c4r" or is it the "GotTard" that's so offensive to you? Or is it just "The other white meat"?

>If you dont Like my products fine there are other vendors.

I know, and I use them instead. They don't plaster their crap all over 2gnt all the time, offering up "special pricing" to people. How shady does that sound? Do you accept Paypal?

OK I couldn't let this one go......

"with paying the cheaper price for a weisco piston and having it coated it will last longer toward detonation then a higher quality piston not coated.."


I disagree with that comment. I'm not going to get in the middle of this but when I see something like that, I can't let it go.

Nick

This is entertaining....

^^^ funny guy.... and yes entertaining. whos right? whos wrong? the world will never know.

(ok that sounds like the stupid "how many licks to the center of a tootsie pop commercial)

One more thing and then Im pretty much done with this. Mototool is being immature by making fun of Motofool and constantly spelling words the way he is such as "w3 du etc" and he is immature for the signature that he has. For these main reasons, I find nothing from him usful. He may be right about some of this stuff, but I still dont trust him as I dont trust immature people.


one more thing about the coatings. Bill said hey are sprayed on then BAKED on. Mototool, quit saying he just sprays them on and thats it, because you have said that numerous times now. Bill has stated they are sprayed and baked on. Make a note of that.

I also find it funny that this is the only thred (other than the one that was locked) that Mototool has had anything to say on. If he knows so much, why does he not look around on the rest of the forum and try to help others out rather than solely using this thread and having this argument go on longer than it needs too?


...this thread is growing faster than a thread full of porn pictures and websites...

Personally I would never run wiseco anything in my motor. Bill knows his stuff, but I cannot say I agree with everything he preaches. I would rather anyone on the board not post technical stuff if they do not know its true. Or at least include something like "a little fucking bird told me wisecos suck" so its taken with a grain of salt. Mr Mototool has disguised his real name because everyone wants to give Bill a free reach around when he posts something. Anyone who disagrees with his gospel gets attacked. I don't blame him for making a new nick name. Everyone here is human, we all make mistakes. But if I shit on the couch I don’t make my friends clean it up, ill take responsibility for it and everyone else should also.

How about a little constructive criticism instead of bastardizing every thread! :thumbsup


edit:
Eagle5: "also find it funny that this is the only thred (other than the one that was locked) that Mototool has had anything to say on."

That is a false statement sir. It sounds like YOU should take a look around.

>Mr Mototool has
>disguised his real name because everyone wants to give Bill a
>free reach around when he posts something. Anyone who
>disagrees with his gospel gets attacked.

I think this is the funniest thing i've read all day. Sadly, it's true. I'm willing to bet that's why this individual is doing this.

>That is a false statement sir. It sounds like YOU should take
>a look around.

It was not false not long ago. Up until maybe an hour ago, ( not sure as the time on the board is not the same as my time on comp ??) this was the only thred. He started to post on the Mototool thread in the pits.

SO my statement was not false. Now it is false, however it was not false.

This is the only useful thread he has posed anything in. how about that?

>It was not false not long ago.

h3 1s r1t3. th1s st4t3m3nt wuz n0t f4ls3 4n h0ur 4g0

>SO my statement was not false. Now it is false, however it was
>not false.

th1s 1s 4ssum3sm1ng. u 2 r f1t31ng 4 n0 r34s0n

>This is the only useful thread he has posed anything in. how
>about that?

that's not true. I posted two days ago but the triple action moderators didn't agree with what I had to say. All that stuff was entirely useful, but since I wasn't all up on Bill's grill my threads were deleted. I went against what Bill said, it was great. Let's do it again tomorrow. :thumbsup

>that's not true. I posted two days ago but the triple action
>moderators didn't agree with what I had to say. All that stuff
>was entirely useful, but since I wasn't all up on Bill's grill
>my threads were deleted. I went against what Bill said, it was
>great. Let's do it again tomorrow. :thumbsup\

ok. I meant after that post. as before i believe I said that the other times. however, i forget what was said in that post. I read it but dont remember it. oh well anyway.

(The following is a serious question, so please respond seriously to it) Im curious as to where you know all this stuff from? Like where did you find this info out or what not? Im just wondering and I am in no way saying your making any of it up. I really want to knwo how you know some of the things you have said about pistons and such.

again, that is meant as a serious question and not to attack you or anything else, but solely, as a question.

Have a nice day! :thumbsup

>that's not true. I posted two days ago but the triple action
>moderators didn't agree with what I had to say. All that stuff
>was entirely useful, but since I wasn't all up on Bill's grill
>my threads were deleted. I went against what Bill said, it was
>great. Let's do it again tomorrow. :thumbsup

In case you truly question why your first posts were deleted and locked:

1. You obviously created your username and signature simply to attack MotoFool and expose his faults

2. Your responses were rather unprofessional and looked like the start of a nice flame war

3. You had no history, so I felt no reason to cut you slack


I believe that this thread and your username are still active because:

1: You've sparked some beneficial discussion

2: Your attitude is tempered by some definite knowledge

3: You're a bit of an enigma now

4: Its like a train-wreck...you have to watch

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

>4: Its like a train-wreck...you have to watch

He's got my attention!:thumbsup

I don't who will use this for your arguement but these are our "good pistons" and "good coated pistons" ... we use both.

^^^^ dem purrrrrty

If anyone cares they are CP's

I was wondering if they were CP's or not. figured they were. i assume the top ones are coated and the bottom are regular considering how shiny they are

this is one of the silliest longest threads ive read in a long time, its suprising that a mod has let this foolishness continue.

DWAYNE H


www.gottude.com
Red/Black/Silver 01 GSXR 750
Lots of Apexi components...

Are you kidding?? Dino even got in on it. I haven't posted because I don't know shit about pistons, and I might add, there are a few people who have posted and made themselves look like idiots! But, I will say that I have learned a thing or two due to this thread, so I can understand why it is still going. Plus, it's pretty entertaining!:thumbsup

>Are you kidding?? Dino even got in on it. I haven't posted
>because I don't know shit about pistons, and I might add,
>there are a few people who have posted and made themselves
>look like idiots! But, I will say that I have learned a thing
>or two due to this thread, so I can understand why it is still
>going. Plus, it's pretty entertaining!:thumbsup

I'm with you...hehe
:thumbsup

VT loves the CP's! ^ major bling factor heh. I wish I would have got CP's, but i guess the JE's will hold up just as well.

Eagle5; Wrong again sir!
http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=59389&mode=full

>Eagle5; Wrong again sir!
>http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=59389&mode=full

:P haha, yeah, I actually caught that not long after I posted that. ah oh well. I actually remember reading that earlier too, not sure why I forgot about it but oh well. Im done with all this. it was entertaining for awhile.

note: he has at most 2 posts with something useful in it, the first one he had and this one. hows that for ya? :thumbsup

heheh. ^

Well i wish mototool was here a couple weeks ago! I ended up polishing my pistons with bakeing soda tooth paste and using peanut butter instead of assembly lube!! x(

>VT loves the CP's! ^ major bling factor heh. I wish I would
>have got CP's, but i guess the JE's will hold up just as
>well.
>
>Eagle5; Wrong again sir!
>http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=59389&mode=full

There is nothing wrong with JE's

>>VT loves the CP's! ^ major bling factor heh. I wish I would
>>have got CP's, but i guess the JE's will hold up just as
>>well.
>>
>>Eagle5; Wrong again sir!
>>http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=59389&mode=full
>
>There is nothing wrong with JE's
>


Yeah i know, but i have JE's in my other motor and figured i would try something new. At least I know they worked great in this other motor. This is Derek BTW. :thumbsup

Tom said you called yesterday, What's up with the cams?????????

Good discussion (somewhat). I've learned a couple of things myself...I think.

Let's just try and keep BS to a minimum.

Be mindful folks, there's absolutely nothing wrong with debate and argument. Sometimes IMO, it's the best way to educate the audience. The only thing we moderators do not care for are namecalling and other childish innuendos. Other than that, we prefer to not censor and I believe we let most things go. I understand some BS has occurred here, to some degree, but I think the solid discussion is worthy for it to continue (for a while longer) if we can all at least try and play like adults.

Agreed. I have also found this educational. Interesting is also a nice way of saying things.

To mototool, maybe things are just read wrong? then again most of your posts do sound uhm...rude? ( runs un fear of retaliation...:P ) but seriously though. Forgot who but they did make a good point. You do make some good points and share some of your know how. It might not be the nicest but it is there. The method of delivery could use some "polishing" itself but theres always time for him to cool off a bit.

I know I can come off as a smart-ass so its no biggie. Motofool is an established member of our community ( I talk to him on AIM)thats why we defend him and i can see why we should. Lets not forget though that what makes this site great is that we welcome new ppl. esp those with things to say so the rest of us may learn.

Thats all I have to say on the matter

Hello vt, thank you for the posts on the pistons and coatings...

The Coatings on the CP are sprayed on then baked, but no remarks are said about vt's ? (interesting)

If somone does not like my advice or what I have said ona subject then start a professional argument, I do not take offence in being wrong, i Take offence to Hacks at me and My Buisness. I am done with this mud slinging contest.

Mototool when you decide, to stop the childish remarks then I might participate in another one of your debates in various aspects of the DSM world.

Bill
moving on cause this will never get anywhere with your 1337 talk

VT are those pistons 420a pistons?

If so what compression with no valve cutouts makes me wonder...


Bill

I have one last thing to post about

cast pistons that run 30# of boost i know this is possible(mainly 4g63's) show me a piston that will do this ina 2.0 dohc 420a.

Bill

The coated set are for a 4.6 ford modular and the bottom are for a 4g63.

>Hello vt, thank you for the posts on the pistons and
>coatings...
>
>The Coatings on the CP are sprayed on then baked, but no
>remarks are said about vt's ? (interesting)
>
We don't coat our own pistons. The process is a little more complex than that.

Eagle 5:

> Im curious as to where you know all this stuff from? Like where did
> you find this info out or what not?

I learned it in the womb. My mother drank race gas and bathed in Valvoline while she was pregnant with me. I suckled lug nuts as a baby, and drank only the finest in propylene glycol from the bottle. I don't think it's affected my development one bit.

> I really want to knwo how you know some of the things you have said
> about pistons and such.

osmosis. I can touch a piston and know all it's dimsensions. Some say it's superhuman, but I think it's a curse!

etx:

> Well i wish mototool was here a couple weeks ago! I ended up
> polishing my pistons with bakeing soda tooth paste and using
> peanut butter instead of assembly lube!!

I'd recommend Colgate with Peroxide Whitening action for that. And Jiff crunchy peanut butter. That sounds tasty.


Chamuko:

> To mototool, maybe things are just read wrong? then again most of
> your posts do sound uhm...rude?

I'm just a tormented misunderstood soul, it's true.
As for the rude comment? I bite my thumb at you, sir!


MotoFool:

>The Coatings on the CP are sprayed on then baked, but no remarks are
>said about vt's ? (interesting)

Hmm. Yes. Interesting. Their coatings don't suck. Apparently you need to be hit in the head with a clue-by-four. GOOD coatings don't harm anything. Coatings that are bubbly, aren't applied properly and are cheap in quality and application are nothing but trouble. Just look at the difference. The VT coatings are NICE, they are applied properly. How can you tell? It's all in the finish, baby! Unfortunately, I can't make fun of vtcomp. But, if vtcomp wants to have a duscission about something, then I'm all for it :thumbsup

>i Take offence to Hacks at me and My Buisness. I am done with this
>mud slinging contest.

Must be hard to run a Buisness. Or is that b1zzn3sz? Oh, I guess it doesn't matter, everyone should be able to understand it in the same way. I didn't mean to of fence you, that sounds like it might hurt.

>Mototool when you decide, to stop the childish remarks then I might
>participate in another one of your debates in various aspects of the
>DSM world.

I think you'll participate in more of my childish discussions. You should, you might learn something.

>show me a piston that will do this ina 2.0 dohc 420a.

Uh, why would someone waste their money on a cast piston that they can run 30 pounds of boost on? Screw that. Just go get some nice forged pistons. That way you don't have to worry about someone screwing up the coatings.

I dont think we should be so Harsh on mototool. Ive learned alot by reading his posts. He is just stating his knowledge. As for the piston coatings. A marina near me would sandblast or glassbead the tops of there pistons on their race boats so carbon would build up faster. Has anyone ever heard of that? Supposidly it was to keep the heat down.

just thought id post pics of a customers JE piston i sent out that was coated...







Bill

>I learned it in the womb. My mother drank race gas and bathed
>in Valvoline while she was pregnant with me. I suckled lug
>nuts as a baby, and drank only the finest in propylene glycol
>from the bottle. I don't think it's affected my development
>one bit.

Was the valvoline mineral oil? or Synthetic oil? I hear that synthetic gives the skin a smoother feeling to it?

>osmosis. I can touch a piston and know all it's dimsensions.
>Some say it's superhuman, but I think it's a curse!

:P hahaha. Thats funny. They tell me they call you the funny man? That your a kick whenever your around? Tell me a joke? (can you guess the movie?)

Motofool:

>just thought id post pics of a customers JE piston i sent out that
>was coated...

:rolleyes Uhm, I thought I told you there were only two things you could do that would please me? Neither of them would have been "post blurry pictures of coated pistons."

>Was the valvoline mineral oil? or Synthetic oil?

They didn't have synthetic back then, it was good old Dino oil.

>I hear that synthetic gives the skin a smoother feeling to it?

the molecular structure of synthetics goes give the skin a smoother feeling :thumbsup

>They tell me they call you the funny
>man? That your a kick whenever your around? Tell me a joke?
>(can you guess the movie?)

Hm... nope. I don't watch movies very much. Except The Fast And The Furious. I bought a noss kit from AutoZone, and floor mats, and a steering wheel cover. It's great. My lawnmower is riced out. I couldn't find an aluminum wing anodized green to go with the whole John Deere paint scheme, though :( I guess I'll have to keep looking.

>They didn't have synthetic back then, it was good old Dino
>oil.

Get out of my fucking bathtub, bitch!

I think many of us have learned a good lesson here in this thread. I believe the main purpose of this thread, is to educate, and to stimulate some thought about high performance parts for your engines. Yes, Mototool has gone about this in a somewhat different mannor, but really, it was necessary. Its a great way to make people think, and realize the truth. I have some thoughts on this also. Back when i was 16, i was VERY into car stereo systems. I didnt have crap for cash, just like most of us. I would need an amp. I would go to a "discount" shop, and find a 500 Watt amp, for like 50 bucks. At the time, this was great I thought. Thats a sweet price, and lots of power! Low and behold, the amp was crap. I got what i paid for. I dont even want to think about how many pieces of audio equipment i went through, because i skimped on quality. I have learned my lesson, which is this. YOu get what you pay for. Which brings me to my main point. When building a high performance, high HP turbo motor, you want the best, and the best high quality parts. There should be NO room for error and cheap parts. If you can afford the higher quality parts, then A- dont bother building a motor, and B- save up your money until you can afford it. There is NO room to skimp on "quality" parts at a "cheap" price. Selling so called "quality" products,at a cheap price, is robbery IMO. But like I did in my example, we learn from our mistakes. Just when it comes to a high perf motor, it can get very labor intensive, and very expensive. You just damaged you "quality" motor with cheap parts, and now you hvae to rip it all out again, and will now prob opt to buy REAL parts. But sadly now you will have to spend even MORE money to do it right. The second time around. If only one, one person got useful information out of this post, then the original intent of mototool has been effective. We all need to concentrate on whats being said,and what is being said is the truth. Ignorance is bliss. But its a short lived bliss, esp when it's costing you more money in the long run. If more than one person has learned something here, that is great. If you plan to buy so called "quality" parts at a "sweet price" just be aware that you really are getting the short end of the stick. Demand the best, and if you cant afford the best, wait until you can. I've learned that lesson many, many years ago. Hopefully, this thread will educate those who have not yet made this mistake, and wont bare the financial consequences because of it. High perf motors,and their parts aren't cheap. Demand the best, but be aware, it's going to cost you.

>>They didn't have synthetic back then, it was good old Dino
>>oil.
>
>Get out of my fucking bathtub, bitch!

haha, I was waiting to hear Dino say something.

Mototool, If you were going to build a turbo race engine, where if any, would you use coatings? This might make you happy... If I don't agree with you I will argue.

I should use a little more detail. Drag race use, 30+ psi. gas not alcohol.

> This might make you happy... If I don't agree with you I will argue.

I like fresh meat.

>Mototool, If you were going to build a turbo race engine, where if
>any, would you use coatings?

I was walking down the street the other day thinking about this exact application, so it's great that you brought it up.

If I knew how to build an engine, and I thought about using coatings here's what I would do:

I'd run wicked gaps on my rings, like .400" ring gap, and get an oil shed coating done to the tops of the pistons. Then, I'd spray a 450 shot of nitrous. That way, the oil making it past the rings won't burn onto the tops of the pistons! :thumbsup It'd be great. I'd celebrate with a 450 shot of nitrous right into my nose, too. Fun! Ouch, the sulfur stings! :(

>I should use a little more detail. Drag race use, 30+ psi.
>gas not alcohol.

When I drink alcohol it gives me gas. I'm serious. Beer makes me poop. Nobody believes me, but just wait 'till any of you are actually around me, you'll smell it.

Oh, you mean gasoline? :wary

If you actually think I was serious about that oil shed coating on the tops of the pistons, you're dumb. that being said, here's what I'd do.

I'd be mesmerized by the pistons that I chose for my built engine. So instead of coating them, I'd just leave them all shiny and alumilicious. No, that's not a real word, it sounds good, though, doesn't it? Tasty. After constantly licking the tops of my pistons, I'd move onto my block. I would secretly hump my new engine block in the corner at night when none of you are looking. Other that a slighty gooey coating I'd put on myself, I wouldn't do anything else to it. Please don't tell my mom, she'd be so mad if she knew I did that to an inanimate object :(

The head is where I would put my money. Everybody and their mother KNOWS that the head is where the power is made, RIGHT? If not, you should come over to my house and I'll show you a thing or two about head. get on your knees. Being that that's where all the power is made, you SHOULD also come to the conclusion that the head is where the most heat is made, too. I had a special OHV / OHC setup made for my lawnmower engine, so I'm going to use that as an example. In the head I'd make sure that NO oil shed coating are applied. Why? Because coolant isn't the only thing that cools your head and engine. OIL helps cool your engine, too. Come on, argue with me :) I'd want to keep that oil up in the head since gravity will pull it away. I wouldn't use an oil shed coating in the head. After cleaning out the resin in my bowl, I'd have some bowl work done, and finish it off with a fine ceramic coating to keep the heat out of the head. Did I saw resin? oops. In addition to that, once the port work was done on my exhaust port, I'd go ahead and coat those, too. This way, you keep as much heat out of the head as you can. So, no oil coating to help absorb heat, coated chambers to help keep heat away, and coated exhaust ports to keep heat away.

Of course this won't guarantee you'll make more power, but if you want to coat things, you should at least coat them the right way. Geez.

>> This might make you happy... If I don't agree with you I
>will argue.
>
>
>I'd run wicked gaps on my rings, like .400" ring gap, and get
>an oil shed coating done to the tops of the pistons. Then, I'd
>spray a 450 shot of nitrous. That way, the oil making it past
>the rings won't burn onto the tops of the pistons! :thumbsup
>It'd be great. I'd celebrate with a 450 shot of nitrous right
>into my nose, too. Fun! Ouch, the sulfur stings! :(
>

You're too funny..

well, for now, my hat is off to you sir.
VT has no arguemenitive comments at this time...

Dead on.. heat only makes power in combustion not in the head... heat passed through the port into the turbo helps boost response, heat passed from the port to the head does nothing...

.?.?.? who is this guy??

>.?.?.? who is this guy??

I'm Batman.

I live in the batcave, and work on Lawn Tractors all the time.
I fight evildoers like "The Dandelion" and "The Weedwhacker".

In my spare time, though, I'm a mysterious multimillionaire who does philanthropic deeds like skooling people on random Internet messageboards. I enjoy life.

I do have to say, you have a round-a-bout way of ansering questions..

>I do have to say, you have a round-a-bout way of ansering
>questions..

Look for the hidden meaning behind each and every one of my messages.

>arguemenitive
>ansering

1f u d0nt st0p m1ss sp34aling things I will h4v3 2 skool u 2.

sorry, I didn't get very much out of the public school system, even at the college level. :-( Or I guess I only retained things that pertained to what I wanted to learn.

>1f u d0nt st0p m1ss sp34aling things I will h4v3 2 skool u 2.

"analize" is spelled a-n-a-l-Y-z-e

"becasue" is spelled b-e-c-a-u-s-e

"THIOUGHT" is spelled t-h-o-u-g-h-t

I thought the above references to what I perceived as unintentional mispellings by mototool might be useful so that we can stay on topic rather than miss the forest for the trees. It's one thing to have an egregious misspeller, but it's quite another to nitpick.

:-)

>"analize" is spelled a-n-a-l-Y-z-e

yes, it is. It was spelled like that intentionally. As in "you'r ANAL-IZING it. You're thinking about it so much that you're pulling it out of your ass. ANAL IZE."

>"becasue" is spelled b-e-c-a-u-s-e

this was part of a quote.

>"THIOUGHT" is spelled t-h-o-u-g-h-t

Oops. You caught me. I unintentionally misspelled thought.

>It's one thing to have an egregious misspeller, but
>it's quite another to nitpick.

I've seen vtcomp's posts. He misspeals evorythang alot two. n0t 4s b4d 4s sum 0th3r ppl th0ught.

Are there any downsides to ceramic coating the valves(stainless)?

Would you choose to coat all 4 valves or just the exahust?

When you ceramic coated the valves(if you would) would you limit it only to the facings and why?



I am debating getting this done to the SI stainless valves that will be coming in shortly. The valves will also be cryotreated(locally) before any coatings are applied. The treatment is not suppose to affect ceramic, but I am not going to take that chance.

Mototool, I look forward to your opinions in this area. I have been researching it quite a bit and there seems to be varied opionions on the matter of doing the valves.

*yawn* it's about naptime.

> Are there any downsides to ceramic coating the valves(stainless)?

Not really. What you need to do is ask yourself why you think you need to ceramic coat the valves. There is no spoon. It is our mind that bends.

a reasonable person would come up with two conclusions to bending spoons. Did I say bending spoons? I meant coating valves. Here's what you should have thought:

"I want..."

1- To keep heat away from the valve, keeping the valve cool.

or

2- To keep heat out of my head.


If you didn't think either of these things, please go stand in the corner.

So, we'll start out with keeping heat away from the valve. If you're coating your valve to keep heat away from it, you basically want to keep it from melting. If you melt a stainless valve, you've got some serious issues elsewhere in your engine, and you need to figure out how to tune it so that you're not burning stuff down. Not only that, but if you do somehow manage to burn a stainless valve chances are you've probably burnt something else pretty major.

How does the valve get hot? It gets hot from combustion, and it gets hot from exhaust gasses coming out of the chamber. If you're concerned with this heat, then get bigger valves. The mass of the valve will soak up heat better, and the more valve surface you have touching the head the more heat will be sucked out of the valve when it's closed. If you oversize your valves, the seat takes more head out of the valve. The valve gets hotter than the head does. "Why does it do that?" you're asking?

Here's a little experiment. Take a needle, a bic lighter, and a friend. Use the bic to heat up the needle. You'll notice you're able to get the needle red hot if you want to. Why? Because the needle has like no mass, and because of that your bic has no problem getting your needle to a cherry red temperature. Now, quit trying to set your needle on fire. The dull glow of the needle slowly dies down because you're not heating it. Now take the same needle, and heat it back up to cherry red. Okay, now take your needle and push it against your friend's forehead. Notice how the needle cools much more quickly against your friend's forehead than it did in the open air? It does this because your friend's flesh is pulling the heat away from the needle. Now, your friend has a Charles Manson scar on his forehead, and he's not your friend anymore. Sweet :thumbsup

This is the same thing that happens in your head. Almost, anyway. When the valve is open, it's being heated through combustion, and through exhaust gasses passing by it. When the valve closes, though, it comes in contact with the head, and the head pulls the heat out of the valve. Increasing the surface area by using a larger valve seat will help cool your valve down.

If you're trying to keep the valves cool by coating them, I wouldn't bother coating them if I were you. I explained another way of keeping the valve cool if that's your cup of tea.


If you're coating the pistons to keep the heat in the combustion chambers, then the only thing that would accomplish this is to coat the faces of the valve. Of course, I'm talking about a high quality coating done by a reputable shop that knows how to properly clean, evenly apply, and bake the coatings. It helps when they know how thick their coatings are when they're applied. They should be able to rattle those numbers off left and right, and give you tolerances when you ask them. If they can't, then don't have them coat your stuff.

>Would you choose to coat all 4 valves or just the exahust?

If someone held a gun to my head and told me I had to coat the valves or die, I'd just get them all coated. I explained it above. If you're coating them to keep the heat away from the valve then don't bother coating. But, if you're trying to keep the heat in the combustion chamber, then get all the faces coated.

> When you ceramic coated the valves(if you would) would you limit it only to the facings and why?


I just told you, stop harassing me!

Coatings won't be detrimental to your valves. I don't think they'll do anything measurable for you on your valves, though.

Mototool... Need a weekend job?

>Mototool... Need a weekend job?

I pimp them bitches on the weekends, and skool the fools on the weekdays. Thanks though. :thumbsup

Why, do you want me to burn your friend's forehead for you? I would say "friends' foreheads" but you probably only have one friend, so it's his forehead, not theirs. It'd end up being a short term position, so I don't think it's pay more than pimpin' the hoes.

I did get my cryotreated JE Piston domes ceramic coated. They came out as nice as those CP coated pistons above. This should help with any hot spots and lessen the sensativity to detonation.

I get mixed reviews on whether to coat the exhaust valve facings or just leave them alone. My goal is to keep as much heat in the cylinder as possible, but compromises have to be made when working with a budget.

BTW: the valves are 1mm oversize

A good friend of mine recently had his valve faces reflective coated with PTFE on the stems. He also has his pistons reflective/moly coated along with the coated combustion chambers/ports of the head. He is going to run 93 octane fuel on 12.5:1 compression.

I am just not sure how cost effective this would be for my application. When I raise the boost, I always use spark retard by the gallon(C16).

If you have any other feedback I would appreciate it. Discussion is always good when people learn what works and what is a waste of time/money.

>I did get my cryotreated JE Piston domes ceramic coated. They
>came out as nice as those CP coated pistons above. This should
>help with any hot spots and lessen the sensativity to
>detonation.
>
>I get mixed reviews on whether to coat the exhaust valve
>facings or just leave them alone. My goal is to keep as much
>heat in the cylinder as possible, but compromises have to be
>made when working with a budget.

I know If you are using swain or someone like that, they will give you a package deal on chambers, ports and valves.
>
>

>
>I am just not sure how cost effective this would be for my
>application. When I raise the boost, I always use spark retard
>by the gallon(C16).

IMO, for your application, I wouldn't spend the cash. This is a choice you will have to make on your own. I will say if you have anything coated in the head, you might as well get it all done.
>

I don't see a point to coat one thing and not the other... If you are going to do it get the dome coated with the intake and exhaust faces done. You said you wanted to avoid hot spots, by only coating part of it you are almost promoting hot spots.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Smooth idle? We don't need no stinking smooth idle.

Mods List:
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

I get all my cryotreatment and ceramic/moly coatings done locally. The import engine builder I use ports heads(flow bench etc.)and his father does all the coatings. They even have an in house dynojet for tuning.

I get a pretty good discount on everything, but even so I cannot just throw good money away. Swain has given me some good advice through e-mails. If I didn't have a local hook up, they would have coated(ceramic/moly) my pistons and bearings.

Here is their last reply to my coating question.

Quote:
"I would use the TBC ceramic for the top of the piston and PC-9 for the skirts. Gold Coat is an excellent coating, but it is touchy and needs to be handled with much care when you get the parts back from us. Also, the motor should be assembled and fired within a couple of weeks of getting the parts back from us to be sure the coating is not damaged. For these reasons, I would use the TBC because it is an excellent all around thermal barrier coating and it does not require any special handling.

We do coat many rod and main bearing shells and it is an excellent coating for improving wear life and giving you a good amount of insurance against damage that could occur with oil starvation. Most sets cost about $41.50 per set. Typical turn time is about 1 1/2 weeks and we are close to that right now."

Richard Tucker
Swain Tech Coatings

We did not discuss doing anything in the head through e-mails. I was not researching that yet and did not want to waste his time.

In a... different fashion mototool has brought out some interesting points. Cut through the crap (name calling and shorthand, which I hate, just type the words) and you can come across some very useful information.

I love a usefull debate just stay away from the name-calling.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Smooth idle? We don't need no stinking smooth idle.

Mods List:
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/sig.htm

OMG! learning and laughing at the same time! this never happened in all my years of public schooling. Great Stuff!

IMO best thread on 2GNT in a while.

Mototool- Rock on.
I like learning from someone with obvious knowledge and experience, who doesn't BS the facts, and can speak English so I can understand it.

Admins- Thank you for letting this go.

I got nothing against gottude or anything like that, but that's why this guy had to use a shill, so nobody would backlash on him for bringing out the facts.

I remember everybody got all bent up about people accusing NER of fraud and whatnot before the truth came out. I fucking hate uninformed drama- it gets you nowhere. I met those guys and they were nice, but the fact is they let circumstances get out of control and actually defrauded some people. Not everybody can have great startup capital or a solid business front on day 1. That's still no excuse for failing to deliver; quality or product.

I've given HRC's products quite a bit of shit, I had some bad experiences with their old designs. Bill Jr. has been mature, answered all questions with technical knowledge, and never once written a hurt word back against me. Instead, he went back to the drawing board, and redesigned all the parts I've been having problems with. He's now in the 11's. That's a quality company.

Those Wiseco pistons were shit.
The surviving JE's from my blown engine came out looking better than those.
The CP's were really nice. :thumbsup
Why are the wristpins coated on the JE's?

I was just looking at Wiseco's, as I've met some of their reps and they seemed very nice, but I was wondering why they were cheaper... VERY glad this topic came up. Thanks everyone.

There is friction with the contact between rod and wrist pin and wrist pin and piston..

The less friction the better to an extent, as with lightning parts too much means no rotating enertia for the launch pad..

I DO agree with everything said on the motor that you would build mototool my question for you, where is it?


Its is amazing the coater hater himself posts long and hard about coatings..(ina good way im astonished)

and its even a company that uses the same brand of coatings as ive got...(uho)

Mototool I respect that you have a vast knowledge, if only you could present it in a better manner..



since the discussion is going about valve seats, by larger valve seats do you mean larger by less cuts 3 versus 5 or a full radius valve cut?

Well SIR I bite MY thumb on THEE!!!:P

sorry guys had to say it...:+ I like this guy...Mototool pm me or email me some screen names or email info. I ned to ask somethings:thumbsup

Ok, Now that I have read through this entire thread, I have come to the conclusion that I do not know anymore about pistons then when first saw the topic. The only knowledge that I think I earned is that mototool doesn't like being wrong. I am not saying this because he was wrong..due to the fact that I know nothing about pistons. Furthermore, I beleive that there is so much mixed info in this thread that it has become usless as to teaching most people about pistons. Have a nice day.

I love how we have someone pop up with a few answers and astute observations, and all of the sudden, he is the "hero du jour." Just because you came over from NABR (you did, didn't you?) does not mean that your knowledge outshines the local gurus.

I guess you did not see my post above regarding your signature. Please change it to a name that does not make any insinuations on the quality of the product or the intelligence of the people involved in the company. Please change your signature to one of a more neutral nature. I am asking as a gentleman, and as a gentleman, I also ward you about laws regarding libel. You are frightfully close to crossing the line, sir.

As for the valve staying cooler, I don't personally feel that it will be an issue. Your metaphor involving the lighter, the needle, and the friend was humorous, but limited. To really convey what is going on, you need something with a higher surface area. A branding iron would work perfectly fine. have your friend hold the branding iron by the iron handle until the tip is really hot. Some heat will be transferred (the rate is dependant on the specific heat of the two materials, and the surface area), but it isn't until you stick the branding iron to his ass that the iron itself cools at a meaningful rate. A valve will lose a small amount of heat through the valve seat, and even the keeper.

The key to keeping a valve cool is, however, in the valve seat. The transfer of heat, as I said before, depends on the specific heat of the materials that are playing catch with the heat, but also on the surface area. A single angle valve job would do the worst job of dissipating heat to the head, as there is only one area of contact that is concentric with the valve stem. A three angle valve job would have the potential to be much better. A full radius hone, however, would be ideal.

Coating any part of the valve other then the face, however, would be counterproductive because there is no spoon. Damnit! I mean, coating any part of the valve other then the valve face will reduce the transmittance of heat to where you want the heat to go. The point of the coating, after all, is to reduce thermal transfer. In fact, the ceramic coating has, by my math, 1/400th the heat conductivity of steel. It also has 1/1200th the thermal conductivity of aluminum. But that's beside the point, as I don't think that you would need to worry about melting a stainless steel valve. Well, more specifically, if you melt a SS valve, then you have so many other issues with tuning, that other sports/hobbies beckon strongly.

Since this thread has taken a turn from a bash on Weisco pistons, to being a bash on Motofool (and by extension, me), to being a clarification on coatings, I guess I will throw in my two cents. Bench racing is as enjoyable for me as it is for other people, so I will start out by describing my ideal motor. It would, of course, be a 2.4L. Displacement is good, as it allows for quicker spool of a turbo, as the swept air volume is greater then that of a smaller engine. I would use Ross pistons, myself, just because I like them better. Pauter rods would be my rod of choice, as I do not believe that any of the exotic metals (titanium or aluminum) are really necessary, or worth the extra hassle that they pose (different rates of thermal expansion, etc...). I would go with a rod that is slightly SHORTER then stock. I think that Grumpy Jenkins was on to something with his Camaro motor in 1970. The 2.4 is such an undersquare motor, that it will never be rev-happy, so all we can do is try to squeak out of it what we can, and that will be low RPM torque. Just bear with me, as this topic has been discussed ad nauseam in the advanced tuning section.

I would go with a set of thin high tension moly coated rings and a fairly smooth bore. I would run a very tight ring gap, and try to eliminate some of the internal friction. I would run a moly coated skirt on the piston, which would allow for a shorter skirt while reducing the effect of additional erosion that is problematic with short rod short piston skirt motors. The piston top would be ceramic coated, as would the entirety of the combustion chamber. To control the effect of heat on the relatively small valves ( I want to keep low RPM velocity high), I will use a nice exotic material, like Inconel. The head ports would not be enormous, and the path to and from the combustion chamber would be straightforward, using "trips" to minimize the effect of the bends on the airflow velocity. I would use a composite intake manifold to reduce intake temperatures, and prevent heat soaking the manifold while at a stop. The exhaust manifold would also be plastic. Oh, good. You are still reading, and realize that this wouldn't be practical. The Exhaust manifold would also be ceramic coated on the inside to keep the gasses hot on their way to the turbine. The exhaust housing and downpipe would also be coated, which is where the exhaust system would end.

All bearings would have an oil attracting coating, and the skirts would be coated in moly. Ceramic would line the combustion chamber and piston, probably applied to about 2 mil of thickness. The rods would get an oil shedding compound, as would the insides of the pistons. The wrist pin would also get an oil attracting coat, by the way. But that's just me. :)

Now, before you all move on with your lives, I suppose that it would be best to describe my choices. I know that this motor will never see much more then 7K RPM. The best way to optimize this setup is to lower the threshold for boost. In other words, getting the motor out of vacuum is the first priority. That is why the runners are somewhat long, the ports and valves small, and trips are used to bend the airflow through the head. Since the valves are small, they will heat more then a larger valve, due to a smaller surface area between the valve and the seat. That is why I would choose Inconel (R) as my material of choice. Mopar made a great decision when they decided on Inconel exhaust valves on the 2.4L turbo motor. I am entirely agreeing with their team of engineers in this case. It is a superior metal (read up on it, if you are curious as to how and why it is so great).

The moly on the piston skirts is simply for longevity. I am going with a lighter piston (shorter skirt), so to reduce frictional losses (and cylinder wall damage) between the piston and the wall, improved lubrication is required. Enter molybdenum, a very slippery metal. The rest of the bearings and such are coated with an oil attracting coat, simply for the sake of longevity. If oil pressure should drop, I would rather have oil present then depend on moly/moly contact.

As for the ceramic coatings in the combustion chamber, they are important, not only because they have low thermal conductivity, but they also have a higher rate of emissivity (in this application, because of the 2 mil coating, which is very thin, the emissivity should be around .95) then the aluminum and steel that they are coating. During combustion, the surface of the coating in the combustion chamber is heated higher then the bare metal would be in an untreated motor. The heat isn't going anywhere fast, though, so it stays on the surface (this is a good thing, by the way). After combustion, the cylinder is cleared and cooled by fresh air. The high emissivity of the coating drops the temperature much faster then it would drop if it were bare metal. So the heat is held in the combustion chamber, and not passed on to the cooling system through the head. This reduces the load on the cooling system by cutting down on how much heat is dumped into the coolant. Since the treated surfaces also cool much faster, they will be at a considerably lower temperature when it comes time to compress the new cylinder full of air. This results in fewer hot spots, and less detonation. Ta-da!

Now, in the manifold, the ceramic coating (by the way, this would be applied to 16 Mil or so, slathered on nice and thick) has several purposes. First, it cools the underhood temperatures because of the greater insulative capability. Let's assume a 900 degree Celsius temperature on the exhaust gas in the manifold. The outside of the manifold is at about 500 degrees, and glowing faint red. The material is iron, cast, and it's emissivity is .8 (give or take). If the tubing is 2" in diameter, then 42 watts of energy are being dumped per inch. Given a tube 1/5" thick, there will be a 3.5 degree Celsius difference between the inside of the tube and the outside. Note that the inside of the manifold is not as hot as the exhaust gas. Now, with a 16 Mil coating of ceramic with an emissivity rating of .4, the inside temperature climbs to 616 degrees on the inside, and drops to 527 degrees on the outside. This is a reduction of power loss by thermal means through the manifold to 30 Watts per inch (there can be up to 20" in manifold tubing, by the way). Doing the math, this ceramic coat reduces the overall thermal conductivity of the tubing by about 35X. This is a 2HP gain in thermal loss from the manifold alone (well, just the runners, not the collector). Not to mention the faster spool response from the turbo and the larger volume of air (from adiabatic expansion - the hotter charge occupies more space)) passing through the turbo.

Now, even the downpipe can benefit from a bit of coating. Even though the downpipe is cooler then the manifold (by 100-200 degrees Celsius), it's area is much greater. The heat put out by unit length winds up being roughly the same in the downpipe as it is in the manifold. It would be possible to save 5 HP in heat alone. Not to mention that since less heat is passing though the walls of the pipes, the thermal strain is reduced, by 5%-7%. Everything is happy when the heat stays where it should.

Forgive the long excursion into math, but I wouldn't want to be accused of not backing up my opinions with facts, and exhaust ceramic coating was not covered much in the rest of the discussion, so I figured I would make my meaningful contribution.

-=B-=

Yo I am really speachless wtf.


Edit: Not all dsm's suck, just mine :)

my head feels like a small bucket... damn you bill for making me feel little again...:P props on that though i shall now go reading on these materials:thumbsup

.............................Ow! (*my brain*)

btw....was someone just own3d? :9

The1Bill:

> I can't say that I appreciate the parody of my company name.

If you don't want me to parody the name maybe you shouldn't make it so public. a Parody is an OBVIOUS form of sarcasm.

> gives you no right to parody the good name that I have worked (and helped) to create.

You can make a parody of ANYTHING.

Parody: "literary or musical work in which the style of an author or work is closely imitated for comic effect or in ridicule"

You said yourself my imitation was a parody. Okay, you're right. It's for COMIC RELIEF. Don't get your panties all up in a bunch.

>I will actually ask how you know Marco.

I buy parts from Marco. I talk to him on the phone. I ask him how his day is. He calls me pookie.

> Would you, by chance, be a member of NABR (your devout attention to grammar and spelling indicate such)?

What's NABR? My "devout attention to grammar" comes from intelligence, and the fact that Internet slang makes people look ingorant at best, and straight up stupid any way you slice it. Proper communication is a sign of intelligence. Argue with me.

> And if so, were you at the shootout?

I was at the shootout. I am at the shootout every year. I was at the shootout years before you knew what the shootout was.

> All bantering aside, building a motor, as I am sure that you well realize, is a comedy of compromise.

uh-huh.

> I would be interested in seeing a motor with Ti rods, superlight pistons, counterweights removed, underdriven pulleys all around, and paper-light flywheel be able to launch in any non traction-impaired scenario.

Okay, so this has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about. Pistons, and coatings. And, incidentally, this is also no excuse for using pistons that weigh 60 grams more than any other pistons out there. Good job.

> I have no experience with the shop who did the coatings on Bill's motor, but I have heard (secondhand knowledge here), that the shop is reputable.

I do believe you're the first person here to actually say they heard something secondhand from somebody else! Let's do a little jig and celebrate!

> I asked Bill about the bubbling on the pistons, and he wasn't thrilled to see it.

Okay. You know, a better way to handle the situation would be to say something like "oh, shit, the guy who coated my piston didn't do it right. That really pisses me off." Instead of posting them, and acting like his shit didn't stink. The pistons and the coatings on them both suck. You just said it yourself. You said Bill wasn't happy about it either. Okay, that's great. Too bad he couldn't just acknowledge that and move on.

> The biggest compromise that had to be made in putting his motor together was cost.

:rolleyes uh-huh. Why'd he even put an engine together, then? He keeps mentioning that the next one will be better. I bet Bill STILL doesn't know what "vaporware" is. Ironically, this is the perfect example. Anyway, if the next one is going to be so much better, than why in the world is he even going to bother putting this one together? With the crappy job market in his area, it'd save him some money if he did it right, and did it once.

> So, he started the business with no startup capitol, and has done his best to make it grow.

It's painfully apparent. He's so rude to Dino he doesn't even pay to advertise. Did he even ask the admins at 2GNT if he could? Just curious.

> If this is a problem to you, kindly keep your opinion to yourself.

:wary Uhm, riight. "I'm going to tell you my life story and if you've got an opinion, I don't want to hear it!" Hey, if you don't want an opinion, don't tell me your life story. 2Gnt, where's the emoticon with the guy playing the violin?

> If you have any questions about our products, please feel free to post publicly, and we will do our best to address your concerns, and possibly explain where we are coming from.

I have a question - when is GotTude, GTD design engine motor 2.4 stroker hybrid 420a division going to come out with something innovative? When are you going to stop making excuses about "turbo kits" that weren't right? "1t wuz th3 f1rst 1 u c4nn0t 3xp3ct 1t 2 B p3rf3ct."

>I get the impression that you were not terribly impressed with the intake manifold that we are trying to develop.

Nope.

>Please note that the pictures that you saw were only from the prototype stage, and far from a finished product.

This is what vaporware is, you should tell Bill that. I mean, you're posting pictures of a product that doesn't exist, isn't available, and won't be for an indefinate amount of time.

>The finished product will not have holes tapped directly into 1/8" Al. There will be a plate in place which will increase
>the thickness to 1/4" at the very least.

It WILL? When WILL it be available? When WILL you stop hyping something that doesn't exist? When WILL you put it back into revision because it doesn't work right again?

> This manifold is another work influenced by compromise. Will it outperform a perfectly engineered sheetmetal manifold?

Will it outperform the restrictive stock manifold? Probably not.

> Will it be considerably cheaper? You can bank on it. This is a stage one manifold, designed for people who want a large bang for their buck.

Uh-huh. The expected price of the thing was posted by Bill. Wasn't it supposed to be around $400? Oh, yeah. Xerox Marco's plenum, and bolt it to a set of stock runners. High Flow. Great price, too. :wary

> I hope that I was able to show you that this business is innovative, creating new products and using new designs.

I'm not convinced. You want to convince me, post some real numbers.

>However, we must be able to appreciate the tight fisted people who are not willing (or able!) to drop $600-$700 for a properly made manifold, or $2000+ for the best internals out there.

Maybe if I put it in my sig right next to my company name you'll remember it. You have to pay to play. Unless you do that, you only end up fooling yourself.



Motofool:

>There is friction with the contact between rod and wrist pin and wrist pin and piston..

:wary So much that it merits coating the wrist pin. How thick is the coating on the wrist pin? did you hone the piston itself? Are you worried about oiling clearances now that you've filled space that should have oil in it with superhyperpolymolychromoly? Just wondering.

> The less friction the better to an extent

What do you think causes less friction, a liquid that's designed to lubricate, or a solid that happens to be slippery? I'd put my money on the liquid... it's called "motor oil". You should try it in an engine someday, it works wonders!

>I DO agree with everything said on the motor that you would build mototool my question for you, where is it?

It's in my lawnmower. Haven't you ever seen lawnmower racing? My mom lets me race sometimes. It's fun. Funny, you don't have one yourself?

>Its is amazing the coater hater himself posts long and hard about coatings..(ina good way im astonished)

Me too. I'm astonished that you can't understand what I'm saying. m4yb3 1f 3y3 typ3 1t 4ll 0ut l13k th1s U w1ll und3rst4nd that I'm not against COATINGS, but I AM against POOR COATINGS. Figure it out.

>and its even a company that uses the same brand of coatings as ive got...(uho)

Yeah. :rolleyes PPG makes Chameleon paint, and they make crappy green econo paint, too. Tell me they're both the same quality. They certainly don't cost the same amount of money.

>Mototool I respect that you have a vast knowledge, if only you could present it in a better manner..

I can present it in any way I want. Who are you to tell me otherwise? Only my mom and dad are allowed to scold me, and you ain't my daddy.

> since the discussion is going about valve seats, by larger valve seats do you mean larger by less cuts 3 versus 5 or a full radius valve cut?

I thought I said the more surface area the valve has in contact with the seat? Guess that could be taken a few different ways. If you have more faces contacting each other, than there would be more surface area, wouldn't there?


The1Bill:

>I love how we have someone pop up with a few answers and astute observations, and all of the sudden, he is the "hero du jour."

I am? Did I save the day or something? I am Batman, but I don't remember doing anything super hero in nature today. I hate this superhuman curse!

>Just because you came over from NABR (you did, didn't you?)

What's NABR?

>does not mean that your knowledge outshines the local gurus.

Uh, Your knowledge does? I mean, you'd even associate yourself with someone who boasts about his poor quality pistons and coatings. That's not a very smart business decision.

> I guess you did not see my post above regarding your signature. Please change it to a name that does not make any insinuations on the quality of the product or the intelligence of the people involved in the company.

What company?

> I also ward you about laws regarding libel. You are frightfully close to crossing the line, sir.

I am? In what way? I'm curious as to what you've got to say about this.

Also, "as a gentleman" I'd like to ward you about laws regarding false legal threats. Figure it out.

> As for the valve staying cooler, I don't personally feel that it will be an issue.

Okay, so EVERYTHING you just said in this entire paragraph reiterates EVERYTHING that I said. Why did you even waste keystrokes retyping it all out? That's funny. Oh, wait, I bet you just did it so that your chronies would read your post, not realize that it was originally posted in this thread like me, and then say something stupid like "who was just own3d?"

> To really convey what is going on, you need something with a higher surface area.

Uh, actually, you don't. You push the SIDE of the needle against your friend's head, not the POINT. Ouch, are you a sadist, or what?

> The key to keeping a valve cool is, however, in the valve seat.

Is it? Really? Oh, I think I know that because I also posted this in this thread the other day, too. Thanks for backing up my typing. Dork.

> A single angle valve job would do the worst job of dissipating heat to the head

You know, all you needed to do was tell Bill this, as neither of you must have read my post earlier regarding this. Thanks for retyping all this out, too. Did you do it to back up my words, or to make it sound like this all originally came out of your mouth?

>Coating any part of the valve other then the face, however, would be counterproductive because there is no spoon. Damnit!

No spoon, it's true. So, in this paragraph, you're also spitting out everything that I said about spoons, and only coating the valve face, right? Or is it to pass this as your original post as well? I'm curious about this, too, because you keep saying the EXACT SAME THINGS that I've already included in my own post. This is like Dejavu!

> Well, more specifically, if you melt a SS valve, then you have so many other issues with tuning, that other sports/hobbies beckon strongly.

So, you're in agreement with me on THIS, too? I mean, geez bill, did you just go line by line and rewrite all my words, or did you INNOVATE and bring new things into this discussion? I don't see any new innovative thoughts yet, just all this stuff where you're retyping all the things I've already said. You must like to type.

> Bench racing is as enjoyable for me as it is for other people, so I will start out by describing my ideal motor.

Yeah, you do it so well, like you've done it for years.

> It would, of course, be a 2.4L. Displacement is good, as it allows for quicker spool of a turbo

But it has such an awful rod to stroke ratio. And I mean you'd have to do the math on the bore to stroke ratio, too! Oh, wait, that's a useless figure in trying to figure how much stress will be on the engine. nevermind. Anyone who's ever calculated their bore to stroke ratio needs to go sit in the corner for an hour, and think about what they've done.

> I would use Ross pistons, myself, just because I like them better.

Just because? You must have a REASON you like them better? I mean, didn't Bill say that Ross had 0ld sk00l technology out in their shop?

> I would go with a rod that is slightly SHORTER then stock.

Ouch, what would that make your rod:stroke ratio? You'd end up with like 90 degree maximum rod angle on that thing. Oh, wait, that's not possible. If you thought you could actually have a 90 degree maximum rod angle, then you need to hit yourself in the head once.

> so all we can do is try to squeak out of it what we can, and that will be low RPM torque. Just bear with me, as this topic has been discussed ad nauseam in the advanced tuning section.

"torque" and "4 cylinder" aren't synonyms.

> I would run a very tight ring gap,
> The Exhaust manifold would also be ceramic coated on the inside to keep the gasses hot on their way to the turbine.

Uh? Tight ring gaps and turbos don't allow for much boost.

> Now, before you all move on with your lives, I suppose that it would be best to describe my choices. I know that this motor will never see much more then 7K RPM.

It won't see anything, really, because engines don't have eyeballs. Not only that, but you must have forgotten that you're bench racing.

I hope you're writing all this out for someone else, because this is making me tired. Sesame street is almost on, and then it's time for my afternoon nap.

> Forgive the long excursion into math, but I wouldn't want to be accused of not backing up my opinions with facts, and exhaust ceramic coating was not covered much in the rest of the discussion, so I figured I would make my meaningful contribution.

Thanks for appologizing. I'm not able to do math yet. I can add up to the tens, but we haven't gone into any other kinds of math in school. I know how to read, though!

I hope you got pleasure and satisfaction knowing that all that stuff was extremely boring, bland, and had nothing to do with anything except coatings. Okay, Pauter rods, Ross pistons (sounds like a familiar combination...) with "small" valves made on inconel, and you'd have EVERYTHING coated. You Bills are all about coatings in a turbocharged application.

How many FAST guys do you know that coat everything? Just curious. With a turbocharger? I don't know anyone who's actually fast and has much coated. Nothing worth mentioning, anyway. I have a friend who has his combustion chambers coated, and his exhaust ports coated like a good little boy. His car is fast, but not as fast as my lawnmower. That's sad. Anyway, other than him, I don't know anyone who makes wicked power, and has everything coated. That's just me, I must not know what I'm talking about, though.


KidEvo:

> btw....was someone just own3d?

You? You were onw3d before you stepped into this conversation. Go stand in the corner.

Mototool you talk a good game, but you dont have anythingto show for it. Its very easy to pick on people who clearly explain and display what they have. Why dont you stop hiding in YOUR corner and show us what you got? You buy parts from Marco, thats great; you know he builds a 2.4L 4G63 block. (and a 2.124L) Why dont you rip on him too? Stop joking around about 'lawnmowers' and quit bench racing yourself. It seems like you know alot (im betting this is a 4G63 owner btw...), but its true, its too bad you have to present it in such a shitty way. oh well. Im sure if a whole bunch of different car company engineers got in the same room, they wouldnt agree on too much either, but the point is they wouldnt act the way youre acting. grow up.

mototool if you strive on buying only the best parts and a shop car reflects their parts then why do you buy from Magnus and Marco if he's not the fastest?

Buscher is clearly faster...

Look at Brent Rau he sells parts and he’s got the fastest unibody eclipse... (He was innovative and made it RWD)
But you don’t buy from him he is one of the biggest innovators to make 8.30's at 161 you don’t even use your own advice wow that is very intelligent...


A person like you should know that if I blue printed a manifold and runner length tuned for a different motor (manufactured by Marco not even the fastest 4g63 shop) will not perform the best on a totally different motor, or did you even know that? Is your intelligence shining through?

I haven’t heard about anyone from Magnus making any break through's lately either Innovative? Must not be...

I Think it is rather fitting of you, how you can't contemplate the fact that a product must be prototyped and then engineered before someone can buy it if I decide to make a post about a product debut coming up that’s my choice, but is it by far from vaporware when I can hold it in my hand...

Just for kicks ill add right now the guy with the most dynoed HP in a eclipse talon or avenger with a 420a(2.0) motor on boards, has his motor coated, pistons, chambers and exhaust ports I'm not positive if Armond had those done...

While were talking about innovate and how i’m not then why am I swapping in a 2.4 liter bottom end instead of throwing a hair drier on a 2.0 like every body and their mother, oh that’s right you bought a car with a turbo so you didn't have to be different and design a turbo system for it...

If I’m not innovative why would, I be making intake manifolds to improve power when no one else Sells 420a Intakes. No one else has one that makes more power (at least backed up by some dyno plots) Venoms got one but no ones seen a gain on it yet...

Everyone can talk and talk all day long what have you built that would backup your knowledge how fast do you run how much power do you make. Or can you not post because you don’t have anything special another reason why you hide behind a name eh?

Bill

Mototool, you are really starting to show why the last part of your forum handle is "tool." You should post what your Snap-On part number is. Sorry, that was a cheap shot, and atypical of how I argue. You, on the other hand, seem to enjoy arguing like a hippie, attacking the messenger, and not the message. Ad hominim attacks get you nowhere. Now, on to business.
I apologize for agreeing with what you had posted. My mistake, I should have argued with you for the sake of argument. And the numbers that I threw in to add a quantitative facet to the argument, I guess those were a bad idea. We don't really need to understand what this magic stuff does, we just need to know that it works, because you say so. Sorry, Batman, I prefer to see why something works then take somebody else's word for it. If I knew who you were (although I think that I do), then I would have some idea of your credibility. This might let me take some stock in the things that you say that do not completely agree with what I have found to be correct. Uncloak yourself, Mr. Superhero, and confirm your credibility, or else crawl back into your batcave, and hang upside down on the ceiling.
It is amusing that you bring up the way that we "hyped" the intake manifold that does not exist. As I recall, there was one thread about it in which we displayed it for public perusal. It was shown in prototype form, and a very rough one, at that. Perhaps a price should not have been named, but it was also being released for public review. A forum is an easier place to do so then a focus group. I also find amusing that you have brought up that damned manifold more then anyone else has even dreamed of. You seem to have a fixation. Some talk therapy might prove useful on this. It isn't being hyped because I do not know what it will or will not do. It is being reworked to improve fitment, at the moment. Once the fitment is improved, then it will be dyno tested for (shit, here is that word again!) qualitative gains or losses. It can't be marketed properly without objective numbers, so I will not market it at all.
Some of the points that you bring up in your critique of my attempt at bench racing are valid, and I stand corrected on many of them. The 2.4 does not have a terrible rod length to stroke ratio. There are several revving to 9K RPM, and even more. Torque may not go directly with 4 cylinder motors, but it can definitely be made. I can point you to the dyno charts of several Neons with a similar setup to myself. The torque curve is flat and high. I like Ross pistons because from what I have seen of them, their precision and quality are very good, and the seemed to be lighter then the JEs that everybody here really likes. From what I hear, the alloy used is strong. I just know that it looks to be a better choice then Weiscos and JEs. So, there was method to my madness, I did not simply pull it out of my ass. I recycled your spoon joke because it was amusing. I did not expect anybody to think that all of the information was mine, but all of the math is. And the numbers are what tell us what exactly will happen. And by the way, you too seem to like typing, sir, even when you do not seem to respect the intelligence of anybody here.
Your method of rhetoric is highly frustrating, as you keep drifting from the topic, to the author of the post containing said topic. You want me to argue with you, yet you do not truly argue. As I highly doubt that you will be a customer at any time in the future, Mr. Superhero, I see no reason to continue bantering with you. I mean, sure, we can keep hitting each other with verbal baseball bats, but it will not get anyone anywhere. So, argue properly, or don't argue at all. Well, feel free to argue any way that you wish. I just do not respond well to ad hominim remarks. I have thrown a few in here, just for flavour. Well, that, and fighting fire with fire is more fun then it looks. So, if you wish to maintain a meaningful discussion, then please go ahead and do so. :Removed... Lost my temper. Found it a few moments later...:
-=B-=

O-K, my turn.
reading this thread has led me to the conclusion that all of its contents have absolutely no value whatsoever.
my argument is......
I am the proud owner of arguably one of the sexiest cars ever made, and definitely the sexiest car in my price range. I would like to make it the fastest car that I can (without going into too much debt). why? to win the admiration of my peers, and to maintain the constant hard-on that I get just from driving it.

piston coatings huh?
what value would pistons coatings have to me? how much would they add to propelling a 3000 lb/2.0 liter engine down the 1/4 mile?
in my estimation... not very much. what value would it have in winning the admiration of my peers.... it would be well worth the money, as long as the cost was reasonable. what do I consider reasonable? well as little as possible. why is that? because my car is a heavy, underpowered, sexy machine that will NEVER achieve any notoriety, other than that brought on by the envious stares of my fellow race enthusiasts and the increasing pressure of that constant hard-on.
I will NEVER be able to use any of the information posted on this thread. my engine will NEVER be that powerful and accurate that the benefits from coating my pistons will make a bit of difference (other than that constant hard-on and my crews undying admiration for such a well thought-out power stage plan).
so convince me.... it doesn't matter. I'm still just another broke-ass 2gnt'er looking to get the most for the least, and feed my addiction.

To the Mods.
while I am forever in your debt for the opportunity to gain valuable information in the never ending process of building my machine, I am concerned that you are too quickly giving legitimacy to a new member who is at best, vague, deceptive and out right rude. while (he) has made some (possibly) informed points on the value of coatings, and their need (both good and bad) in the controlling of heat within our combustion chamber, his post was obviously a direct attack on Motofool. the manner in which he has directed his post is (in my opinion) unacceptable in keeping with the spirit of anything that can be considered a community. while I DON'T think that Motofool should be given a unconditional pass because of the large amount of information and help that he has given to members of this forum, the very least the he is possibly owed, is the minimum of respect that all other members can expect from this board. I am not suggesting IN ANY WAY, that you should censor Mototool, or any of his postings, while he remains non-threatening. what I am SUGGESTING is that you should not give validity to this person in you until he can behave, and ask or maybe demand that his posts do not include the personal attacks that have absolutely no value on this forum. either way, I AM grateful to have this forum and website at my disposal.

To Mototool.
You seem to be a very intelligent person. I have always known though, that knowledge is only as valuable as how it is applied. while I am quite impressed with the sharpness of you wit, and the unconfirmed preciseness of the information that you have shared with us all, you will have to work a little harder to win my admiration. you will have to excuse me. I am just a regular unintelligent working class guy, who is simply coming to this board for some useful information and a few deals and contacts. I will never be able to confirm the validity of your posts, because (to my knowledge) none of the successful builders on the 420a platform use a single bit of what you have posted here (subject to confirmation). alas, the only ones that will be able to use it will be the ones that roll off their latest purchases, with their hood up, Friday night, to their buddies, in some parking lot somewhere.
Motofool (may I field this) is just getting started in this business, and while it may take some capital to do design, manufacturing, marketing and production properly, sadly most of the big money manufacturers have passed us by (explained earlier in post). just a few have taken the time to RIP-OFF other designs and make them workable for our platform.
at the end of the day, the large producers know that your lawnmower will still be faster.
I doubt you care at all to win my admiration, but if you did, you would have to go into construction on a 2.5" HRC type mandrel bend downpipe for my car that none of the "quality" producers would even BOTHER to make. because, who would possibly want to spend their resources on a performance part for a 2.0 liter engine in a 3000 lb car?
it wouldn't even have to be perfect, just good and affordable (you would have to be nice about it too, and not condescend).
if you have a problem with Motofool, don't be vague. come out with it and address it. at the very least, give Motofool a chance to rectify the situation as he has before.

To Motofool
Dude, where's my downpipe?:P after reading this post, I think that I am going to have to order some of those Weisco pistons and have them moly coated!
my crew will cream their jeans when I tell them that I got that shit under my hood! do you think that they will allow me to be faster? aw, who gives a fuck! I can still beat their asses anyway. :thumbsup

Bill,
you shouldn't have changed your post. it summed it up perfectly! one must be human to affect humans.

> mototool if you strive on buying only the best parts and a shop car reflects their parts then why do you buy from Magnus and Marco if he's not the fastest?

Marco knows his shit. Plain and simple. And how do you know I've never purchased anything from Buchur? Curious...

> Look at Brent Rau he sells parts and he’s got the fastest unibody eclipse... (He was innovative and made it RWD)

Depending on what you consider to be unibody. I don't consider something that's been front-halved to be unibody. But we could argue all day about that. It's a personal opinion.

If I were to build an alcohol car, I probably would call up Brent and ask him his opinion, ask him questions, and buy fabricated parts from him, if I didn't make them on my own. If I needed advise on building an alcohol car.

> you don’t even use your own advice wow that is very intelligent...

Sure I do. Even if Marco isn't "the fastest" he knows his shit, hands down. Argue that. There's nothing wrong with buying from someone who's "slower" but you shouldn't ever buy anything from someone who DOESN'T KNOW their stuff.

> if I blue printed a manifold and runner length tuned for a different motor (manufactured by Marco not even the fastest 4g63 shop) will not perform the best on a totally different motor

REALLY? No shit, sherlock. How long did it take you to deduce that? So why is t that your intake plenum bears an uncanny resemblance to Marco's?

> I haven’t heard about anyone from Magnus making any break through's lately either Innovative? Must not be...

Wow, you don't know much about them, then, do you? A few weeks ago Marco ran 9.53@152 with their Action Front car. Apparently you didn't see it at the shootout? He's the only guy who makes chromoly subframes, and machined his own hubs for the front of that car. Not only that, but the manifold, the Intercooler system, and just about anything else you COULD mention on that car is something that very few people have done. Innovation.

> how you can't contemplate the fact that a product must be prototyped and then engineered before someone can buy it

Yeah, it's fitting of you to sell things that aren't ready to be produced, either, like turbo kits. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

> if I decide to make a post about a product debut coming up that’s my choice, but is it by far from vaporware when I can hold it in my hand...

You can, but who else can? You're hyping a product that doesn't exist to the general public, what a tease. :rolleyes

> ill add right now the guy with the most dynoed HP in a eclipse talon or avenger with a 420a(2.0) motor on boards, has his motor coated, pistons, chambers and exhaust ports I'm not positive if Armond had those
done...

Okay, so Armond has that done. Yippee. Does he know how much power it'd make without those coatings? I bet Armond, even though I don't know him, has half a brain and can tune his vehicle, so he would probably make the same power with or without the coatings. Nobody will ever know, though. It's a shame, too. I was wondering if those coatings would help out my lawnmower...

> that’s right you bought a car with a turbo so you didn't have to be different and design a turbo system for it...

I did? When did that come in the mail? So, how do you know I've never designed a turbo system? Just because I didn't plaster it around the forum that I have made a turbo system doesn't mean I never have and don't know how. I'd rather make one, have it be successful, and be HUMBLE about it rather than make one that's mediocre, and people have complained about.

>If I’m not innovative why would, I be making intake manifolds to improve power when no one else Sells 420a Intakes.

You haven't made one that's made more power on the 420a.

> No one else has one that makes more power (at least backed up by some dyno plots) Venoms got one but no ones seen a gain on it yet...

You're right. Nobody does. Neither do you.

> Everyone can talk and talk all day long what have you built that would backup your knowledge how fast do you run how much power do you make.

I run faster than you and make more power than you. Want to run at the shootout? My tractor will pull more than your car, too! I use propane injection on it!

> Or can you not post because you don’t have anything special another reason why you hide behind a name eh?

Yep. You're right. I have nothing special. you found me out. I also don't have any idea about what I'm talking about either. We're in the same boat.

> You should post what your Snap-On part number is.

I don't own any snap-on tools. I buy those cheap Husky brand tools from Home Depot. They're great, even if I can't get my hands on any metric tools :thumbsup

> I apologize for agreeing with what you had posted.

No appology necessary. I just wanted to clear up why you were spending so much time rewriting everything I had already written out, and wanted to make sure other people knew you were agreeing with me, and not writing everything out like it was a revolutionary thought, that's all. Your friend whatever his name was posted about "someone" being own3d, but I just wanted to clarify things a bit and make sure you were agreeing with me, even coming to your own conclusions and everything. You came to the same conclusions as I did using math, and your own brain. Seriously, that's the best thing you could have done, no joking has happened in this sentence.

> And the numbers that I threw in to add a quantitative facet to the argument, I guess those were a bad idea.

Why's that? I never said they were. You thought they were good. Okay.

> We don't really need to understand what this magic stuff does, we just need to know that it works, because you say so.

I'm glad you see it my way :thumbsup

In reality, though, posting your numbers is perfectly acceptable - that was all about your magical "I will never exist" engine, though.

> This might let me take some stock in the things that you say that do not completely agree with what I have found to be correct.

Wat, weren't you already in agreement with me on the coatings thing? If not, what did you disagree with? I don't remember, it's been so long.

> or else crawl back into your batcave, and hang upside down on the ceiling.

I am in the batcave right now. It's quiet. It's humid. It's dark. I miss my mommy!

> It is amusing that you bring up the way that we "hyped" the intake manifold that does not exist.

You people take everything so literally. It doesn't exist in a sense that it's available to the public. Can I buy one right now if I wanted to? No. Would I want to buy a plenum you strap down to your stock runners? No.

> A forum is an easier place to do so then a focus group.

I bet it's a lot cheaper, too, isn't it? Since you're to cheap to feed that hand that bites you why would you be willing to pay for a focus group? Did I say "feed the hand that bites you"? I meant "pay for advertising on a site that puts food on your table."

> You seem to have a fixation.

You're right. I do. It's an oral fixation. I love suckling nipples. People tell me I have a problem, but I don't think it's all that bad. I like it a lot.

> It isn't being hyped because I do not know what it will or will not do.

Thank you. You should tell that other guy you're working with some of your wisdom. Thank you for admitting this, and not hyping it. You're not, but Bill is.

> It can't be marketed properly without objective numbers, so I will not market it at all.

Thank you. You are much more wise and reasonable than some other people. This entire sentence makes sense, and is a good move on your part. :thumbsup

Of course, you'll just think I'm being a sarcastic asshole. So be it, I'm not.

> I like Ross pistons because from what I have seen of them, their precision and quality are very good, and the seemed to be lighter then the JEs that everybody here really likes. From what I hear, the alloy used is strong.

Good. I'm glad you came to that conclusion on your own. Even in the face of "your partner" who says that Ross is using 0ld sk00l technology you actually looked at them yourself, and decided that those were the pistons you liked and wanted. Congrats.

> So, there was method to my madness, I did not simply pull it out of my ass.

Good - thank you. You also didn't take it from someone else. I'm sure you also have an idea of the pin ofset, the dome height, and a lot of the other dimensions of the piston you'd end up making. Instead of saying "th3y R 0ld sk00l 4nd s0 th3y suk" you actually held one and said "Oh, this thing is nice" didn't you?

> I recycled your spoon joke because it was amusing.

It is amusing. There is no spoon.

> I did not expect anybody to think that all of the information was mine, but all of the math is. And the numbers are what tell us what exactly will happen.

Numbers aren't always right. this is arguable, but you can't account for engine inconsitencies in mathmatics. It just doesn't work. It's like your 2.4 - it SHOULDN'T run to 9000rpm according to math, but people HAVE run it at 9000rpm.

> And by the way, you too seem to like typing, sir, even when you do not seem to respect the intelligence of anybody here.

Who are these "nobody" and "anybody" guys?

>I just do not respond well to ad hominim remarks. I have thrown a few in here, just for flavour.

Hm... Spicy! (anyone know where that line is from?) Where I'm from it's "flavor" not "flavour" ... Damn Canuks!

> Well, that, and fighting fire with fire is more fun then it looks.

It IS more fun than it looks, isn't it?

> :Removed... Lost my temper. Found it a few moments later...:

Damn. I was hoping you'd be a man and let me see what you communicated. That's disappointing. I've left everything up I've posted without editing because that's just a cop out. :(

Thanks for clearing up a lot of stuff the1bill. See? We do agree on some things.

I think I have a pretty good idea as to who this is. I was up at last years shootout riding in Hank Bell's GSX. I think I met you under the white tent or maybe while I was in Auburn. The reason why this sprung my attention is because I got "schooled" in a chat about bearings with you. If I'm wrong, I'll be surprised because "this person" had your direct approach. Anyway, if this is 'you' I still have pictures of everybody;( in NABR from the shootout.

Regardless to who you are, thank you for taking the time to state what you think. I've learned a great deal.


-Chris

Well, my point was that I do come to my own conclusions, and they very well may be completely different from my partner's. I can not be held responsible for his opinions, and in all fairness, he can not be held responsible for mine. Your post just rubbed me the wrong way, because I am almost positive who you are. I don't have any proof, so I will keep it to myself, but I dropped a few hints in the post. ;)
All that I ask is that you give me a fair shot. I do not pull opinions out of my ass, and I really do understand the physics of motors and turbochargers. The 2.4 should be able to rev happily to 9K, just not for a prolonged period, which shouldn't be an issue if the motor has any power whatsoever, as it should not stay in the high RPMs for all that long. The rod length:stroke ratio in the 2.4 is not all that much worse then that of the 2.0, because the rods are lengthened. This is where Chrysler made a steep break from the Mitsubishi mentality. Rather then punching out the same casting, they used a different block that is also taller, in order to have a higher deck and longer rods. Hehe... yeah, my rods are longer then yours. ;) So, the rod:stroke ratio of the 2.4 is about 1.5:1, which is within .1 of the B series Hondas. Also, the block is actually made of a decent piece of iron. The cylinder walls don't ovalize readily. In fact, a properly treated 420a will be rebuildable to stock bore after as many as 60K miles. Not that I would do it, but I have mic'd blocks with almost that many miles on it, and there had been no appreciable ovalization perpendicular to the thrust angle. I still did the right thing, though, and had the block bored out to spec with the new pistons. So, even though I didn't do it, I probably could have gotten away with a stock bore piston in the rebuild.
Now, about my "chronies," (see? That is a copy of your spelling error. What are they, timepieces?) they are simply people who appreciate the technical nature that I bring to my posts. I even try to make it all tangible, and try not to type above my audience, even if my audience is a 16 year old riceboy with altezzas and light up windshield washer nozzles. I guess it could be said that my posts are meant to be more inclusive. What can be said for yours, sir?
I seem to recall a post by someone who seems very similar to you. It was on another forum, had 4 letters, can't remember the name of it, off hand. ;) But it states that you are not just a keyboard warrior and are willing to confront a stupid person in person, not just online. I can believe that. I can also attest to Marco's knowledge. I met him at this past shootout. Mind you, I had to do so in a setting other then where I was staying, as my local DSM club managed to piss him off something hardcore. Feel free to ask him how his scooter is running.

-=B-=

By the way, what I edited out was irrelevant, but it read "Read it, and feel what you wish, but if you don't make a coherant argument, fuck you, and fuck the horse that rode you in. Your last post, however, was in better spirits, so I withdraw the comment.
-=B-=

>KidEvo:

>> btw....was someone just own3d?

>You? You were onw3d before you stepped into this conversation.
>Go stand in the corner.

Uh no. You keep owning yourself with every post you make. Get a life.

I am glad this thread came about. My personal opinion is that Gottude is doing a lot of freeloading off of 2GNT myself. Have you guys paid for any advertising? What have you actually accomplished? Have you ever raced a car or have any track experience of any kind that has ever confirmed or tested ANY of your ideas? I make it a habit of buying from proven shops for a reason. I hate blatant rip offs myself. Throw the new intake manifold in the ring. You openly admit to ripping off an idea and never actually answered any of my questions. They always seem to go ignored.

As Jason mentions, avoid any direct name-calling, threats, or personal attacks and everything is for the most part fine. If you are simply hurt by an opinion on the Internet, try growing a thicker skin.

I am with Mototool on this one. He makes me laugh, has sound knowledge, and can complete a thought and sentence. It is not that hard to do you know. I do not pick on people for spelling and grammatical errors, but it really is easy to use any text program with a spelling checker.

Why bring up NABR? I have been a member for years.

Chris:

> I was up at last years shootout riding in Hank Bell's GSX. I think I met you under the white tent or maybe while I was in Auburn.

Nope. I know Hank Bell, but I didn't school you in bearings. Maybe next year? :)

> Regardless to who you are, thank you for taking the time to state what you think. I've learned a great deal.

:thumbsup


The1Bill:

> Well, my point was that I do come to my own conclusions, and they very well may be completely different from my partner's.

You should get together with him for a sandwich, a cup of tea, and a good discussion on Ross pistons. Then you should teach him your wisdom on business practices, and make him follow them. Then, the world would be a better place.

> All that I ask is that you give me a fair shot.

Okay. Too bad half the people here haven't given me one. I'm so hurt by that. I can't believe NOBODY here likes me. Whaaaa!!!!

I'm done now.

> I do not pull opinions out of my ass, and I really do understand the physics of motors and turbochargers.

Opinions ARE like assholes, though! Everyone's got one, and they all stink! I agree that you do sound like you know what you're talking about, but I think I might have some idea, too - what do you think?

> The rod length:stroke ratio in the 2.4 is not all that much worse then that of the 2.0

But the stroke is like 10 bajillion inches longer. That's a technical term. Bajillion. Actually, it's like what? the 2.0 stroke is 83mm, the 2.4 is 101mm. Oh, sorry, you guys talk in inches... that's 3.268 inches for the 2.0 and 3.98 inches for the 2.4. There we go. The rod length is longer, but the stroke is, too. the 2.0 is what 1.67 rod:stroke, and the 2.4 is 1.495 rod:stroke.

going from 1.67 down to 1.495 is quite a jump. You're not spending much time up at 97000 rpm, which is the main point you brought up, and it's what allows you to run this engine.

> Hehe... yeah, my rods are longer then yours.

Hey, you should be careful with that thing, it'll get you into trouble. You can start off by putting it back in your pants.

> which is within .1 of the B series Hondas.

Don't ever mention Hondas. Ever. I hate them. They make me shiver. Ewwwww... Hondas. Who's with me on that one? Fuck 'em!

The B series Hondas are a mystery of science. There's no way you should be able to run 9500+ rpm out of those things, but it happens somehow. It must be the bumblebees they put in them?

> Also, the block is actually made of a decent piece of iron. The cylinder walls don't ovalize readily.

I don't like the partially open deck, that just speeals trouble with high horsepower.

> I still did the right thing, though, and had the block bored out to spec with the new pistons. So, even though I didn't do it, I probably could have gotten away with a stock bore piston in the rebuild.

If I were bench racing a 2.4 liter, I'd get a set of sleeves made up, and a billet crank. Screw this cast crap.

> Now, about my "chronies," (see? That is a copy of your spelling error. What are they, timepieces?)

Shory uhb0ut th4t. 3y3 h4d ch31ck4n f0ur dh1nh0r3 4nd mhy fgh1ngh3rz sl1pp3d f0rm th3u gr34s3.

> they are simply people who appreciate the technical nature that I bring to my posts.

I have a hard time believing some guy who just post "STFU! STFU... you should STFU" has an appreciation for your technical nature. If he does, he still needs to go learn how to spell and carry on an argument.

> I even try to make it all tangible, and try not to type above my audience, even if my audience is a 16 year old riceboy with altezzas and light up windshield washer nozzles.

If your audience is a 16 year old riceboy with altezzas and light up windshield washer nozzles he needs to be talked down upon. He also needs to grown up, learn something, and get rid of those stupid washer nozzles. Silly riceboys!

> I guess it could be said that my posts are meant to be more inclusive. What can be said for yours, sir?

Mine say "I am Batman" . Anyone who's inquisitive enough to read my stuff, think about it, and walk away with something is the type of person who will appreciate them. I don't want to just GIVE my knowledge to the riceboys, they deserve to be slow.

> It was on another forum, had 4 letters, can't remember the name of it, off hand.

The only words I know with four letters are naughty words. My mom washes my mouth out with soap when I say them. It sucks. I like the flavor of Dawn the best, so she always uses Comet. yuck.

> But it states that you are not just a keyboard warrior and are willing to confront a stupid person in person, not just online. I can believe that.

Stupid people are dumb.

> Mind you, I had to do so in a setting other then where I was staying, as my local DSM club managed to piss him off something hardcore. Feel free to ask him how his scooter is running.

I don't remember him being pissed off hardcore. There were some people who were being pansies around where he was staying and they whined about those things at 3 in the morning, but who didn't expect there to NOT be a party where Marco was? He mocked them, it was fun. "Marco, can you please turn those things off? We're autocrossing tomorrow, and we need our sleep. Whaaa!" Marco's 4 stroke scooter was running C16, I think that may be the main reason it wasn't running very well. The night before he was having a hard time starting it right off the trailer because 2:1 compression and C16 along with a cold spark plug don't like igniting a 117 octane fuel. Fun stuff.

Murix:

Thanks for posting :thumbsup

>I am with Mototool on this one. He makes me laugh, has sound knowledge, and can complete a thought and sentence.

Thank you, thank you. Please remember to tip the bitches on your way out. The complete thought thing, though, is not always true. S03m3t1m3z 3y3 h3v4 4 h4d3 thym3 f1ng3r1ng 0ut the th0ughtz 3y3 4m try11ng 2 c0nvh3y. I also don't have any knowledge on sound systems. I work on lawn tractors all the time. Sony is supposed to come out with the new "Combine Extreme" series speakers for the John Deere's, but they are a few months behind. Maybe when they come out I'll get into tractor audio systems. Until then, though, I'll just be sniffing my diesel fumes. It's fun!

All I want to say is that Mototool obviously knows his shit, I would just like to see him help out in other posts and spread his knowledge.:thumbsup

Hey Dino, here's one for the Things We've Seen Before section. heh

Well, I wasn't there for the scooter incident. Some people in NewEngDSM were upset about the whole thing, though. I think that a scooter on C16 would be fun. Also, I hope that the very expensive video camera was not damaged when another member of NewEngDSM (and a moderator here) pushed it away from his face. But, I would like to think of it as water under the bridge. And yes, you do seem to know plenty. As for the rod:stroke ratios, the 2.4 is a 1.51, and the 2.0 is, I think, 1.67. Sure, it's quite a difference, but the extra stroke does something to the motor, and changes it's character completely. I agree on the Honda motors, and I think that the only way that they spin that high is because they have small gerbils pumped on meth.
But Chris, I keep mentioning NABR because I know that Josh is not only a member, but a moderator. I don't have a problem with this, but it kinda bugs me that he isn't open about his identity. <shrug> It isn't my problem, though.

-=B-=

By the way, When I was talking about the motor that would never exist, I tried to keep too far off of the pipe. In reality, with an unlimited budget, I would fill and sleeve the block and have a billet crank made. Hell, scratch the filled and sleeved block idea, I would have a forged block made. I priced it out to be at about 10K for a single one. If I were to order multiples, they would get much cheaper. But, the point of the forged block and billet crank would be the indestructability of it. Backup blocks would be, well, redundant.
As for the semi-closed deck, it hasn't seemed to have been a problem in some of the really fast Neons. I am referring to the Neons that came before the SRT-4 block. Block flex and torsional rigidity doesn't seem to be an issue. I guess, by the rules, it should. But in actuality, it isn't. In theory, the HRC S16G should be better for the 4G63 then a small or large 16G. The 4G63 has a similar swept volume to the 420a (within 1/4 ML), but the S16G works better on the 420a then it does on the 4G63, in spite of the additional stroke on the 4G63. Math says one thing, reality says another. And, by the way, I think in metric, not SAE. MM works best for me. :D

-=B-=

> As for the rod:stroke ratios, the 2.4 is a 1.51, and the 2.0 is, I think, 1.67.

2.0:
Stroke: 3.268
Rod Length: 5.470

rod:stroke= 1.6738066095471236230110159118727

2.4:
Stroke: 3.98
Rod Length: 5.954

rod:stroke = 1.4959798994974874371859296482412

You're right on the 1.67 for the 2.0, but the 2.4 is not 1.51. Not if these are the correct numbers for the 2.4 liter and the 2.0 liter. I stand on the 1.49 rod:stroke ratio. Even rounding up, it's 1.50, not 1.51. I posted the numbers I used, do you agree with them?

> Sure, it's quite a difference, but the extra stroke does something to the motor, and changes it's character completely.

That's true. It's got a lot more grun. Of course, it is 4 tenths of a liter larger. That's a chunk.

> I agree on the Honda motors, and I think that the only way that they spin that high is because they have small gerbils pumped on meth.

I hate Hondas. Methed up Gerbils bother me, too. :thumbsup

> But Chris, I keep mentioning NABR because I know that Josh is not only a member, but a moderator.

I'm not Josh. He is a different batman.

> By the way, When I was talking about the motor that would never exist, I tried to keep too far off of the pipe.

You should spark up another and continue on with it!

> In reality, with an unlimited budget, I would fill and sleeve the block and have a billet crank made. Hell, scratch the filled and sleeved block idea, I would have a forged block made.

I'd have a CNC'd aluminum block made on an unlimited budget, but that's just me. It wouldn't matter if I broke it since I'd have all the money in the world to replace it. Of course, it wouldn't even be a 420a anymore. It'd be a 5.6 liter four cylinder with a 1.9999 rod:stroke ratio and pudding in the crankcase :thumbsup

> But, the point of the forged block and billet crank would be the indestructability of it.

I could destroy it.

> As for the semi-closed deck, it hasn't seemed to have been a problem in some of the really fast Neons.

That's true, but there aren't any 900 horse neons running around, are there? I bet with that kind of power there would be quite a large amount of flexing. You'd need something to hold it. The limiting factor on the 420a, though, is the cast crank, not the semi open deck.

> I guess, by the rules, it should. But in actuality, it isn't.

It may become in the future, when people actually build their dream blocks.

> but the S16G works better on the 420a then it does on the 4G63, in spite of the additional stroke on the 4G63.

That's arguable. Even though they're sold as 16G's, the HRC S16G is different than the 16G that bolts up to the 4g63. Not only that, but how much power has been made with a S16G on a 420a? Anyone know?

> Math says one thing, reality says another.

See? That's all I'm really trying to say. Math tells you one thing, but in reality, it doesn't work out like that.

>That's true, but there aren't any 900 horse neons running
>around, are there? I bet with that kind of power there would
>be quite a large amount of flexing. You'd need something to
>hold it. The limiting factor on the 420a, though, is the cast
>crank, not the semi open deck.
>


last i talked to phat ridz they were making 1400hp on the yellow neon

>I agree on the Honda motors, and I think that the only way
>that they spin that high is because they have small gerbils
>pumped on meth.

>-=B-=

I agree, We built a honda engine for honda tuning magazine with a r/s of 1.50, turned it 11000 and made 820 with 37 psi and no N20, It didn't make sense but it ran and didn't break after 80 pulls on the dyno. Freak of nature....

>
>I agree, We built a honda engine for honda tuning magazine
>with a r/s of 1.50, turned it 11000 and made 820 with 37 psi
>and no N20, It didn't make sense but it ran and didn't break
>after 80 pulls on the dyno. Freak of nature....

Freak of nature?:wary Damn freak of science...:P I think satan himself made that block to terment us...:+

the tenatious b was cool.

thank's man, didn't know anyone read that.

Yeah, i read that too! that thing is insane.

the block I got from VT is great. when I was tring to fire it up (before we found out I had the neon cams in it! x( ) I ran a comp check and it was 180 acrost the board. Sick shit for a motor that hasn't run or broken in yet.

HEHE :)

>HEHE :)

Hey prick this topic isn't about your damn magazine article.

Are you afraid I might be as cool as you?

>Are you afraid I might be as cool as you?

You're cooler 'cause you're in a magazine? I doubt that!

And a Honda magazine at that. Traitor.

You're like that kid in the background on MTV that's jumping around and waving and shit. "mommy, I'm on TV!"

:wary

stfu tool! :nono

VT is not a traider, they make all kinds of motors. Shit, they could probably boost the motor in your vibrator.





edit: ^ had to change stroke to boost, that just didn't sound right...

>stfu tool! :nono

stfu? Hahaha. that's so funny. my sides hurt it's so funny. Why don't you just say "shut the fuck up" ?

>Shit, they could probably boost the motor in your vibrator.

They did already, but I didn't want anybody to know about it. My vibrator is faster than your car :D More displacement, too.

>>stfu tool! :nono
>
>stfu? Hahaha. that's so funny. my sides hurt it's so funny.
>Why don't you just say "shut the fuck up" ?

I'm just trying to communicate in a way you night understand, like your 1nt3rw3b 3r33t sp34k. 3y3 4m r33t, 3y3 hax0r j00! h0h0h0!

>I'm just trying to communicate in a way you night understand,
>like your 1nt3rw3b 3r33t sp34k. 3y3 4m r33t, 3y3 hax0r j00!
>h0h0h0!

Y3sh u kn0w th4t wh3n 3y3 du th4t 3y3m m34k1ng fun 0f ppl? i c 1t t4k3s u 4 f3w d4y3z 2 und3rst4nd th1ngs.

You reminded me about my vibrator a few threads ago, but I can't find it. I guess I left it at your mom's house. She wouldn't give that thing up, I had to backhand her to get it back the first time I brought it over. :rolleyes

If you guys want to fight like school boys, please do it in the Pits. I believe a person shows true maturity when someone takes a poke at them and that person chooses to ignore the inmature statement.

There are many of us that have been on 2gnt since it was started. I like the technical forums and feel good knowing that the punks keep the trash talking in the Pits. Please help the moderators do our jobs by keeping on topic.

There is no need to reply to this post as it is not open for discussion.

Thanks

You got my respect for knowing a lot, and for making me laugh so hard I cried, but if this is gonna turn into just a bunch of low grade insults...maybe it's time to call this thread quits on a high point?

-Corey

>>Are you afraid I might be as cool as you?
>
>You're cooler 'cause you're in a magazine? I doubt that!
>
>And a Honda magazine at that. Traitor.
I wanted to see if I could break the dart block, I can't break a DSM.
>
>You're like that kid in the background on MTV that's jumping
>around and waving and shit. "mommy, I'm on TV!"
>

Hell yes!

Do you happen to know of a good place to get CP or JE pistons?

Also, what are your views on head milling?

Originally posted by SoCal99GS
Do you happen to know of a good place to get CP or JE pistons? Also, what are your views on head milling?

There are tons of places to get JE pistons for the 420A. Just look around on the Vendors page on the main site (Sections- > Vendors) or click some of the banners.

Head milling.. There are better and more correct ways of doing the same thing - like high compression pistons.

Mototool - The other white WHOOPS!

Sorry...I didnt mean to put JE in there. I have found many sites for JE, but I can only find CP pistons for chevys and Fords, with the exception of FTY.

You can order CPs from FTY, or have them do the block for you.

Nobody stocks CP pistons for our cars. CP custom makes them for VT and FTY.

Really? No wonder Gary from Howell said "CP? Never heard of em" :shrug :rolleyes

Hrmmm, Thats weird. My buddy at ramchargers was tring to sell them to me. heh :shrug