OK guys...I been reading alot of info in this section of the site and the Turbo section for a while now... and I finally made up my mind.
Rebuild engine, then do turbo to Stage II... (around 280hp if possible, higher is fine, heehee... ) for my GS 1995 eclipse.
Anyway.
For the rebuild, do I just do the bottom end? or do I need to do top end also?

if I do bottom end, is that good enough for me to do 260 or 280hp ???
Also, what does bottom end includes? If I rebuild my stock 420A engine for the bottom end, do I just change the piston, and the rod..and that's all?? that will be good enough for me to boost the engine to 260 - 280hp??? (COMPLETELY safe??)

Thanks guys..
Any suggestion will help alot... and appreciated.
Thanks!:thumbsup

hehe completelyyy safe? anytime you mod your car etc etc its never really going to be safe to do 280hp.. the major parts of a bottom end are piston, rings, rods, bearings. there are some other 'small' stuff you would like to replace since your rebuilding it. are you going to rebuild the motor in your car right now? or what.. for top end i would replace the lifters, and rockers, if you got money some new ss swirl valves are nice... it will keep on adding up $$$$
oh yah might as well do it all at the same thing if you can.
have fun
Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2 @12psi :D
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

Would this apply to stage III too? because, I'm thinking about stage III. I know it would be GREAT to rebuild the top end too, but isn't the bottom end more important when it comes to compression and stuff? Or would the valves and stuff wont be able to handle stage III?

Well, lets put it this way.
I won't go to Stage III.
And I only want to put about 10 - 12max PSI to my engine after I rebuild.
The reason I want to rebuild is to make the engine ALOT safer then using stock internal (don' twant to blow it)
And for rebuilding the engine....
I been adviced to buy a kit, the "2.0 Performance Bottom end Kit" from Howell Automotive website. This kit already comes with rod, bearing set, main bearing set, rings, gasket set, oil pump, and pistons. (for what I konw.... this kit is for bottom end rebuild) correct?

Now, for just doing the above rebuild, will that be good enough for me to go up to Stage II (with around 10 to 12PSI) ???
or should I go for top end also if I WON"T go over 12PSI???

Thanks man....
Any suggestions will be very appreciated!!
Gil

The previous reply is for me to restate my questions more clearly... now this reply is to answer the questions you have for my post questions.

>>hehe completelyyy safe? anytime you mod your car etc etc its never >>really going to be safe to do 280hp..
Well, I mean alot safer then stock internal??

>>the major parts of a bottom end are piston, rings, rods, bearings. >>there are some other 'small' stuff you would like to replace since >>your rebuilding it.
What are those small stuff? do those small stuffs included in the engine kit I mentioned from the previous reply message?

>>are you going to rebuild the motor in your car right now? or what
I would like too, I mean, I thought I HAVE to take out the whole engine to rebuild, can I really just rebuild the engine right in my car??? you have any info on that?

>>for top end i would replace the lifters, and rockers, if you got >>money some new ss swirl valves are nice...
What is the rockers and ss swirl valves? is the ss swirl values the stainless steel...? and for the rockers, I can't find them in the Howell website.. As I said before, do I really need to do the top end also?

Thanks again !!!
Any suggestion will be very appreciated!!!
Gil

No not really. Would it be nice to have the top end too, yes, have to, no. Your car will be a "stage 3" once you rebuild. Yes the bottom end rebuild kit will be plenty for your boost level plans, the top end is not "necessary" until larger amounts of power are made. Once again is it nice to do the top end, yes but do you need it at that level, no.

its a good idea to get a spare block built already so really all you got to do is drop it in. well you might have to transfer small things over. i would also look into some other shops who can build you a shortblock from a member on the board its not what you pay for( from howell). but overall howell is ok.. do a search for like the last month or so and you should come up with the post of 'other' places to get it from.
true, top end does not need to be done, but hey.. im a guy who wants to get 'everything' done at once. i rather not have to pull the head, to get to the block, and then drop in a stock head again. then later few months to a yr or whatever pull the head to do something i should have done the 1st time. i rather save time and money.. well this refers to you if you want to run 18psi+ ( which i plan to do)
if money is a issue dont mess with the head. but atleast i would do the rockers, and lifter. its less then $185 give or take.
cool
Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2 @12psi :D
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

With the complete bottom end rebuild, 12 psi is a cake walk for the built motor to handle. You can make 500+ HP if you wanted to on that bottom end. Our heads are good, and you really only need to replace things on that if you want to run it in red line rpm's a lot, and if you get the AFX ECU, your redline rpms can be increased, which means you need to upgrade things like valves, valve springs, and rockers/lifters. I wouldn't worry about valvetrain parts unless you are wanting to rev the motor at redline ALL the time, eg drag racer,ect.. I'll tell you this though, you WILL want more boost. Its a drug, its an addiction, and it will keep your wallet empty for a looonggg time hehe :) Happy boostin.

Ok...so this sounds good... so as long as I am wanting around 300hp +-... that means just doing the bottom end is fine.
But this is my questions: (only 3 of them)

1) my engine is close to 70,000 miles already. Is it still good for me to rebuild it?? my friend said it's rather just leave it..since everyhting inside is wearing out... so rebuild them is bad.... (only if I get all the parts brand new again. ??? is that true?? or can I just get the bottom end kit from howell is fine for my situation??? 70k mile.

2) for doing the rebuilt, (if only bottom end ONLY) can I just take the engine apart while it's in my car (under the hood) and take out things until I see the bottom end of the engine, and change the parts there (in the car) then put all the things back in the my car? or do I have to LIFT my WHOLE engine up (away from the car) then do the rebuilt?

3) Also, do I need any thread locks for the engine??? like after I unscrew the things, do I need to use the thread lock to lock the screw when I put everything back?

Thanks guys... I hope the above won't be too much questions, but I really want to konw exactly what I need and what I will face before I fxxk everything up... I iwll do the rebuild soon (in about 1 months)
Thanks!

>
>1) my engine is close to 70,000 miles already. Is it still
>good for me to rebuild it?? my friend said it's rather just
>leave it..since everyhting inside is wearing out... so rebuild
>them is bad.... (only if I get all the parts brand new again.
> ??? is that true?? or can I just get the bottom end kit
>from howell is fine for my situation??? 70k mile.


Technically, you wont need to rebuild it unless you want to push 8 psi. If you do a cylinder compression test, and results are good(170+ psi) then you should be fine. But if you want a very strong motor, and a new motor, one that can handle just about anything you want to throw at it, rebuild it with new pistons, rings, rods and bearings. If you do this, the block needs to be bored out oversize, to make sure the cylinders are nice and round, and to make sure the rings seat properly. That is the BEST way to do it, the only one i will suggest. This means you need to fully remove the engine from the car and have the block taken to a machine shop for machining.

>
>2) for doing the rebuilt, (if only bottom end ONLY) can I
>just take the engine apart while it's in my car (under the
>hood) and take out things until I see the bottom end of the
>engine, and change the parts there (in the car) then put all
>the things back in the my car? or do I have to LIFT my WHOLE
>engine up (away from the car) then do the rebuilt?


Well like i said above, fully remove the engine from the car, as this is the BEST way to do it. It IS possible to just take off the cylinder head, and oil pan, and push out all the pistons and rods, then hone the cylinders to put the proper finish on the cylinder wall for proper ring break in, BUT this is not the best way, as you cannot actually bore out the engine when its still in the car, you can only hone it, as honing only conditions the cylinders for new piston rings. When you take out the motor and have it bored, you buy oversized pistons(usually .020 over) and do it that way. This gives you the chance to replace with brand new bearings, and a lot of other things that should be done with a proper rebuild.
>
>3) Also, do I need any thread locks for the engine??? like
>after I unscrew the things, do I need to use the thread lock
>to lock the screw when I put everything back?

The only place that thread lock is really needed is in the clutch area. Almost every bolt on our engines have whats called torque specs. You have to get a torque wrench to tighten some misc bolts to the right amount, so as not to overtighten, or undertighten. This is esp needed on the bottom end parts, and the cylinder head bolts. Hope this answers some of your questions. I actually just assembled my new motor with forged pistons/rods and all that, so its fresh in my head :) Its not quite done yet though.

Thanks man!! that will help alot!
About the boreing.... do I have to do it??
Coz I am thinking about doing the rebuild myself, and I don't konw if boreing is possible for me to do it.... and if I bring it to a shop...how much will it be? (around).

Cool, do you have any pictures of your rebuilt engine? any during process pictures? they help alot for non-experienced people!
Thanks again.

Gil

A machine shop will have to bore out your engine, you cant do that yourself. I spent around 370 bucks for all of this work: Boring, cleaning,honing, and balancing of the entire rotating assembly(pistons, rods, and crankshaft). I also has the crankshaft bearing journals polished, which should be done anytime you use new bearings.

I have quite a bit of pics, but i need to sort them out and put them all together so i can put them up. Here is one of my posts with some pics for you, of my bottom end assembly. http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=46744&mesg_id=46744&page=4

From ^^^, "A machine shop will have to bore out your engine, you cant do that yourself. I spent around 370 bucks for all of this work: Boring, cleaning,honing, and balancing of the entire rotating assembly(pistons, rods, and crankshaft). I also has the crankshaft bearing journals polished, which should be done anytime you use new bearings."

Thanks for the info man, Here is my questions:
1) I konw what is bore out engine, it's bascially, make the cylinder wall bigger which make sure it's smooth and line up right. (correct?)
2) cleaning: is that mean using soap water (or baking soda with water) and clean the whole engine so that it will discharge the mentallic dust on the inner water and wash them away?
3) honing.... what is honing?
4) balancing, I don't really understand this. I did read this on some post here, but by balancing the entire rotating, what they do? how they balance the engine?
FINALLY...
5) you said you also has the crankshaft bearing journal polished... what you mean by that? if the bearing is already brand new, aren't they already polished and shiny?

THANKS ALOT man!!! Any help or suggestion will be greatly appreciated!!

That is nice!!
Hey, can you send me all the pictures you got for your rebuild process? I odn't mind if they are not sorted or something. I just want to have a general idea man! leeg2@rpi.edu (allow up to 8MB storage)
Thanks!!

>From ^^^, "A machine shop will have to bore out your engine,
>you cant do that yourself. I spent around 370 bucks for all of
>this work: Boring, cleaning,honing, and balancing of the
>entire rotating assembly(pistons, rods, and crankshaft). I
>also has the crankshaft bearing journals polished, which
>should be done anytime you use new bearings."
>
>Thanks for the info man, Here is my questions:
>1) I konw what is bore out engine, it's bascially, make the
>cylinder wall bigger which make sure it's smooth and line up
>right. (correct?)

boreing makes the cylinder hole or bore, a size bigger like .020 or 20 over, they just cut the hole bigger and make it very straight and clean and it removes any scratches or blemishes in the finish for a proper ring seating...

>2) cleaning: is that mean using soap water (or baking soda
>with water) and clean the whole engine so that it will
>discharge the mentallic dust on the inner water and wash them
>away?

cleaning is usually done by sending the block into a huge hot tank and chemicals remove everything from the block and then they use a pressure system to removed clogs and gunk in the oil and water passage ways,

>3) honing.... what is honing?
honing is whats done after boring they use small stones to basically sand the cylinder walls smooth

>4) balancing, I don't really understand this. I did read this
>on some post here, but by balancing the entire rotating, what
>they do? how they balance the engine?
>FINALLY...
if your engine is not blaanced it will not rotate properly the way it should at very high rpms, not to mention its easier on all your internals because its not figting a wobbly or out of balance rotating assembly(meaning crank with rods and pisotns attached is the rotating assembly)

>5) you said you also has the crankshaft bearing journal
>polished... what you mean by that? if the bearing is already
>brand new, aren't they already polished and shiny?
the bearings maybe new but the surface those bearings are touching is not new, so they polish the crank journals to insure proper wear on the new bearings that u install....

prices vary from shop to shop and from city to city, here in town it costs me 180$ for everything to rebuild a motor(machine work wise, as long as i dont have to cut the crank journals for oversized bearings)

please either download the Factory Service Manual or buy one, get the proper tools and find a buddy thats done this before, to help you out, take time dont cut corners,

if u just rebuilt your motor and installed a new oil pump and such might as well leave that oil pump in there for the new motor, make sure u change the timing belt while the motor is out...

good idea to grab another clutch while it is apart, not neccisary but why not while u got it apart,

if u need assistance dont hesitate to call i can help u out 24/7
do check out my deals for bottom end kits cheaper then howell also,
Number is on the Website

Bill
Happy Boostin!


>
>THANKS ALOT man!!! Any help or suggestion will be greatly
>appreciated!!
>
>That is nice!!
>Hey, can you send me all the pictures you got for your rebuild
>process? I odn't mind if they are not sorted or something. I
>just want to have a general idea man! leeg2@rpi.edu (allow
>up to 8MB storage)
>Thanks!!
>
>

Damn good thread at a damn good time! :thumbsup

I'm about 3 weeks from the same scenario.
The plan: JE 10.5:1s, rods, rings, bearings, MLS, AFX UDP, P&P'd TB, and maybe, just maybe, AFX ECU. So the above has been quite helpful.

HEY TUDE! :7
I like your prices! What is the difference between the Eagle rods at Howell and the Eagle "H beam" rods you've got under the engine kit? Are they the same? If so, it looks like I'm about to post another "standard rings vs. Total Seal ring" vote thread. I've always like them, but they're not THAT important in the grand scheme.

As far as machining goes... :wary
>Once you get down to the point of being able to remove your rotating assy's, is it really that much more effort to pull the block (and then maybe hit the clutch and rear main seal)?
>Next question-> what about the ARP studs? Head, exhaust, and... (cost)?
>And also, do you risk warping shit if you gank it and then just bolt it back up?
>Finally, do you HAVE to get things bored over? Can you just get it honed? Still under $200 maybe for machine time?

I only ask, as I have about $1500 to play with (maybe $2k if I sweet talk the wife) and I want to fix as much as I can. The clutch has been acting kinda sketchy in third lately...

Word up to everyone with input. I may not have turbo (yet), but I'm gonna rebuild BEFORE you! :P

>
>As far as machining goes... :wary
>>Once you get down to the point of being able to remove your
>rotating assy's, is it really that much more effort to pull
>the block (and then maybe hit the clutch and rear main seal)?

Pulling the motor with the tranny still on is by far the easiest way to do it. I have done it the other way by just pulling the motor apart from the tranny, and it was def harder. Its really not much more work to pull the entire assembly out of the car, and then you can take off the tranny when the engine is still on the hoist, giving you access to your clutch, ect. Then take apart the whole block down to the pistons, rods, crank, ect..

>
>>Next question-> what about the ARP studs? Head, exhaust,
>and... (cost)?

I opted for ARP head studs. I got them for around 100 bucks for the set. ARP just recently came out with the Dodge Neon 2.0 head stud kit, which will fit our motors perfectly. I even took the liberty of getting the stock head bolt part#'s for both our cars, and the neons, and both part#'s were identical, so we know it will work fine. You can get exaust studs at the dealer(ask for the 8mm ones), or i got some at Napa for around 9 bucks. You need 8 of them.

>>And also, do you risk warping shit if you gank it and then
>just bolt it back up?

Not sure what you really mean by this? Since our head is made of aluminum, you MUST follow factory removal, and reinstall procedures when loosening/tightening the head bolts, to avoid warping the head. Using the proper torque on the head botls is a must also, so get a good torque wrench. I use a click-type wrench.

>>Finally, do you HAVE to get things bored over? Can you just
>get it honed? Still under $200 maybe for machine time?

No, you dont have to, but IMO, its the BEST way to do it. You just dont know if your cylinders are out of round at all, and by boring slightly oversize, it will take out any imperfections in the cylinder.
>
>I only ask, as I have about $1500 to play with (maybe $2k if I
>sweet talk the wife) and I want to fix as much as I can. The
>clutch has been acting kinda sketchy in third lately...


When my engine is all said and done, i will have spent around 2,000 for everything. This includes all parts, machining, new clutch, and misc items like oil, coolant, plugs, ect.
>

Sounds good. Thanks.
When I said "gank it and then retighten it" I was referring to the block. I'm aware of the head issue, but I don't have a hoist and was thinking about just pulling the engine apart down to the head and then lifting the rest out. Will I be risking a lot be setting the block on a pallet or a work bench?
(This is where my true lack of experience shows, huh?)
I have no idea what this thing weighs and I just want to be careful not to fubar my first engine rebuild. (You gotta start somewhere!)
TIA.