I am having a problem with the 2.4 swap (again), that has me absolutely stumped. This god forsaken waste of matter of a motor requires a rewire of the coil pack to make the ignition system actually fire in time. This means that the two signal wires must be reversed, so that when one coil would normally fire, the other fires. Basically, swapping coils. The best way to do this is to cut the two signal wires, and swap them. I did this, and the two signal wires are 1 and 3. The +12V wire, #2, remains unmolested. Now that I am getting fuel, the coil pack is rewired solidly as well as grounded finally, and the starter is turning fast, I am not getting spark. Well, more accurately, I am not getting **much** spark. I will get on spark from one plug when I first crank the motor, and sometimes another spark from another plug when I turn the key to off, but in between yields no spark. I confirmed that the middle pin is getting battery voltage like it should, but I am getting no signal to the coil pack that I can see with a multimeter. The only thing that occurs to me is that the coil pack has failed, but it was cold in my garage, and the electricity hasn't been turned back on now that I have taken the garage over, so I didn't feel like messing with swapping coil packs. If anyone else has any other ideas, feel free to jump in. To sum it up, intermittent spark which seems related to a lack of a solid signal to the coil pack. I will also check the continuity on the solder joints that connect the signal wires.
I also found a bunch of shorts, which I pulled the fuses for. Anyone know where these connect, other then the fuse box: headlight, fog light, and tail light?
Any help would be appreciated. Might even keep me from finding a cliff to throw this motor off of...
-=B-=

Do you have a descent size grounding wire from the battery/frame to the engine block/head?


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I grounded the coil pack directly... is there one particular bolt that it grounds through? Or does it just ground through all four of them?
-=B-= <===== should just do some research to find out

I believe the main point of a ground on the motor is the ground wire that goes from the back firewall, to the throttle cable adjustment plate on top of the intake manifold. On my car, its at least a 10 or 8 gauge wire, black with yellow stripe. I guess start there, and also check the ground wire that goes from the neg batt terminal to the driver inner fender, by the stock ecu.

Yeah, that is in place, what I am wondering is what bolt the coil pack grounds to the valve cover and head by... I have a ground strap going from the bolt closest to the throttle body to the firewall. I am trying to get a good ground on the coil pack so that I might be able to rule grounding out. If it isn't the grounding, then it is probably the wiring, which would be a real pain.
-=B-=

sounds like your power wire is hooked into the wrong kind of power. it needs to be on a very certain power, one taht is only one when the key is 'on' AND when cranking the motor, if you haven't noticed many things loose power while cranking the motor (such as stereo) so if you only get a spark for a second right when you start cranking and right when you stop, sounds very much like your coil or something is tapped into just a plain ignition on power, and not a source that has power during everything but cranking. have you hooked a multimeter directly up to that #2 power wire at the coil, cranked it, and seen if it looses power? i'm betting it does, and if so, that is your problem.

although it could be something completely different. with what you said, that's what i would check as the most likely thing.

It is still getting power from the same place as before. I just switched the trigger wires, leaving the +12V power source that was originally on the coil pack intact. As I said, I am getting the 12V that I should, but I am getting no real signal. If it was a grounding issue, I would still see signal while cranking with the multitester, as I went from the pin on the coil pack harness directly to ground. While cranking, I get +12V on the middle wire, but the two at the extremeties are flat.
-=B-=

>While cranking, I get +12V on the middle wire, but the two at the >extremeties are flat

You should get a square wave sweeping from 0 to 8-9 volts on those 2 wires
those signals are generated by the ECU pulling the 12v to ground
If your multimeter has a frequency counter check the signal while cranking the engine in frequency counter mode
you could try another coil but I'm under the feeling that the problem is elsewhere

Alain

alright.. since i'm not all too familier with the specific swap.. are you using the 2.0L ECU.. or the 2.4L one? i'm just curious.. about maybe some pinouts beind different. other then that, i'd think it'd have to be the coil.

this is getting out of my league.. hehe.

I'm sorry to break into this direction that the thread is going. but I was under the impression that with the 2.4 swap, the only things with the ignition that needed to change, was just swapping the cylinders that your plug wires went to. is that not correct?

Are you sure the signal that comes through the wires you're talking about has a duration long enough to be seen with your multimeter? The refresh rate on your multimeter may be too slow for you to see anything. Try scoping it (that is if you have access to an oscilloscope). I don't know what the signal should look like either, so it's just a guess.

Matt

Ok, are both of those grounding wires in place - Battery to fender and firewall to intake mani? I'm not exactly sure about the coil grounding - I actually think that you don't need to ground it. I think the important ground is for the head - so the spark plugs have something to ARC to. If you don't have a good ground to the head, you will get intermittant or no spark. That's why I suggested checking the ground.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Okay, He-Man... :P

Sounds very much like a coil pack to me, also. Swap it with Todds one day and see. I don't think the bottom of the coil pack grounds to the valvecover, if so that would be a whorendous design, grounding through high temp paint... Your ground for the spark plugs is done through the head, I don't think the coil pack itself has a ground...

The signal to the coil pack would be so quick I doubt it would register as voltage... probably need an occiliscope to check it. I'll see if I can confirm that...

Do you have any engine codes, possible about crank or cam angle sensors?

I'm always suspicious of wiring, what wiring modifications have you done?



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

2.0 ECU
I don't have a scope, but I will try to find one. Will check the grounds again. I don't have a ground from the head, but I did have one from the intake manifold to the firewall. Will that ground the motor adequitely? I also have ground from the starter to the shock tower, and to the battery. I will put one on the test pipe at some point, too. I know that there was one from the catcon (what is a catalytic converter? :P ) I am getting sick of this car NOT STARTING!
And I meant that I thought that one of the bolts might ground, but now that I think about it, that doesn't sound right, since the valve cover is aluminum, and AL isn't a great material to ground through.
-=B-=

you ever thought about doing what the guy above mentioned? just leaving the coil pack wires the way the are supposed to go (unaltered) and switching the actually plug wires themselves if needed?

what you could do is put those two coil wires back to original, take the plugs out (but leave them connected to the plug wires) and give it a crank, see which ones are firing, if anyway.

With my car, you have to have a ground running from the valve cover to the wiring harness or you will get hellacious missfiring. This ground sits on the drivers side of the valve cover and the wire runs in with the main wiring harness.

My car only had a ground from the starter to the harness, and that was on the bellhousing. The other ground strap on the motor itself is on the intake manifold and it goes to the firewall.
I will try reconnecting these.
-=B-=

Ground that head! bolt in the front by the EGR (Or where it used to be on mine :P) How well does current pass through a paper gasket? That's the ground you get with just the manifold, passing through two paper gaskets on the way to the head. You'll get ground from the block, but... I say get the ground off the coil pack and get a good ground to the head. Hmm... would the cam angle sensor possibly use a ground which it isn't gettnig from the head... Either way get those grounds hooked up good.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

i see lots of head grounding straps just hooked into one of the valve cover bolts, why not do that, simple and easy.

Actually, the intake mani grounds the head pretty well through the studs and nuts on it. I will try grounding a bit more, but I don't really have any grounds on the block either. Hrmmmm, well, I will try those things and see what develops... If it was purely a grounding issue, though, why don't the plugs fire when they are sitting on the ground strap connected to the firewall?
I still think that the problem lies elsewhere.
-=B-=

Its sounding more like a coil issue to me now. I would try to switch coils if I could.

Also, I had a problem like this on a 71 Honda 450 Scrambler one time where I put new plugs in and it would run fine, then the second time I tried it wouldn't start - no spark. Get a new set of plugs in it and it ran fine. Then the next time I tried, it wouldn't start - no spark. By the third set of plugs I realized that I had forgotten to put on the air filter. It's amazing what a little piece of dust can do when hurled at the spark plug at the speed of sound. Are these plugs brand new? Have they ever been run without an air filter?


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

But I'm retty sure there are sensors that use the block as a ground. And if the ECU doesn't like certain values it may not produce spark.

I would think if the ECU wasn't sending a signal for the coil to fire, because of some signal it didn't like, that it would trip a CEL...



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

No check engine light... I also am beginning to suspect the coil. Or maybe the integrity of the harness to the coil. I will check both. These plugs are new and fine, and the insulation is intact. I even checked the gap (I will try another set of plugs, I already tried another set of wires)
Any more thoughts?
-=B-=

i don't know about 2gnt's.. but on my zx2 it takes a good 20 minutes of run time before the cel illuminates for the first time.

Takes maybe 30 seconds of cranking, if it is one of the vital sensors, like a cam or crank angle/position sensor. Should spark and give fuel as long as these show up. Also, it shouldn't cut spark without cutting fuel, at least not on cranking. I just realized that the 3 coil packs that I have access to don't have the same connector on them as my stock coil pack. I will try to procure an early coil pack and try testing that out.
-=B-=

Or... use this as an oportunity to buy the MSD coil pack :P

Have you checked more than one plug to see what it's doing while you crank it? Or are you always pulling the same plug and ground it?

Did you have to modify a connection to the crank angle sensor at all?



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

I didn't need to modify the wiring to the crank sensor, but my sensor was feared dead, so I switched to the newer style harness connector and sensor. It is working, else the injectors wouldn't be firing. I have been taking all 4 plugs out and grounding all 4. One sparks at a time, though, which is bizarre, and makes me think that it is the coils, since the coil pack shouldn't be able to fire only one plug. We have a waste spark system, so there are 2 coils firing 2 plugs each. When one plug is firing at a time, I suspect the coil pack, the wiring to the coil pack (power, not trigger), or ground. It seems that all is grounded well enough, and I am getting solid battery voltage to pin 2 on the coil. That leaves the coil pack. Anything else it could be?
-=B-=

just change the damn coil and get on with it! hehe.

I am away on quasi-business, but if you want to fly to Massachusetts or Rhode Island and go to my garage and swap out coils, then go ahead and be my guest!
-=B-=

I see.. i was about ready to start quoting monty python.. "GET ON WITH IT! GET ON WITH IT MAN!" hehe.

ok, this is a shot in the dark. i think it was alain who said(or it may have been someone from the neon boards and im totally off) in a post somewhere that we needed to rotate the cam angle sensor, and you didnt say if you had done this or not. and that sensor helps the ecu figure out which plugs to fire. if you didnt rotate the sensor magnet, it would be firing the wrong plugs b/c of the change in firing order. and dont our cars fire all plugs on cranking at least once, til the ecu figures out whats going on?

No I don't think it does. It doesn't explicitly say that it does in the manual but from the way it's worded, I'm pretty sure that it holds firing until it can find the reference marks on the crank/cam angle sensors.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html