I'm going to use a 96 non-turbbo rail as my primary rail in an 8-injector setup. The system is going to have AN-6 lines all the way from the tank to the primary rail inlet. Then the rail tie line is going to be AN-8. Our fuel rails are steel tubing, so I got some weld on AN fittings to slap on the ends. My question is, can I use JB weld to fix them to the rail? I've never used JB weld before, so I don't really know. I can have the fittings actually welded on, but I think it would be cheaper and probably cleaner if I just used JB Weld. Can it hold the pressure? The rail will most likely never see 100 psi fuel pressure, but basically I need it to be able to hold that much pressure.

How it should look when the fittings are on


Closeup of the Inlet AN-6


Closeup of the Outlet AN-8


Closeup of the Outlet fitting and rail end. And yeah, I'll radius the fittings before putting them on.



95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I think it would hold... At least for awhile. In my old car i bottomed out the oil pan and put a hole in it. I was too broke to replace it so i just JB welded it. It lasted for over a year before it started leaking. IMO i would do it, but just keep an eye on it.

Couldn't you get some fittings that had threads on the other side? aren't those basic plumbing fittings? I was just thinking that if you could get at least some of the threads to grab, that with the jb weld would make a stronger bond. I would have a hard time trusting two smooth fittings to hold together. do you know what I mean?

btw. I have NO IDEA what radiusing the fittings is.

Weld it, grind it, polish it and forget about it. I wouldn't trust JB for that kind of seal. It may last a few but over time w/ vibration it will probably leak.

Ok, thanks guys. Damn I wish I had a welder. I have access to one - which is the only thing holding me back from getting one. bah.

I couldn't really trust just tapping into the end cap to screw the fittings in for a couple of reasons. This rail is old and it looks good on the outside. But on the inside it's got a nasty buildup of surface rust that's all kind of bubbled away from the rail in a weird way, like the rail had been sitting still for years - filled with gas. I had to open it up to clean it out. Also, the stock end caps are really really thin, too thin to get any threads in, so I would have had to weld a plate on anyway.

The radius thing, its just grinding/shaping the opening on those weld-on fittings - to make them flow the fuel better. It'll look something like a velocity stack carved into the hole(on the flat side).


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Must you use THAT rail?

let me know if you could use a 1G turbo rail for this. I have one just sitting here that you could have. it might have more options for you. I think that I even have all of the injectors still.

let me know

like the lower one

Thanks Wikki, but using a stock rail in the stock location makes for less fabrication and a cleaner fit. I am using a 1g rail for the secondary, tied to the primary in series like in Corbin's writeup. I'm going to be using 1/2 inch annodized alluminum tubing to tie them together, but it's basically the same thing - the inlet for the primary rail and the FPR(on the secondary rail) will be on the same side of the intake manifold.

I've been playing around with it a bit, and it looks like my best bet is to put the inlet for the primary rail on the passenger side. This will allow for easier fabrication of a bracket for the secondary rail. It will also put the FPR on the passenger side, where there is more room to access and adjust the FPR. There's not much elbow room on the drivers side of the intake manifold - the TB, IC piping, washer resevoir, and battery all kind of gang up on you back there. I'll be using a Command Flow for now, but if I have problems with the stock 1g FPR, I'll just upgrade it to the SX.

Here's what it would look like from the driver's side.


Here's what it would look like from the passenger's side.


Here's a closeup of the secondary rail mounts. They will be on the bottom...closer to the lower manifold bracket mounts, where I'll probably make sort of "long rod" mounting like Corbin did.



95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

i wouldn't trust jb weld it is actually a very weak expoxy, a stronger expoxy or a gas weld would be my choice...

im doing the same thing soon ill be gas welding mine though and welding nuts on to the manifold so u can thread those long bolts on easier..

My bad.
I thought that you were using a 2G as your secondary.
It all looks great! you seem to have it planned very well. have you asked corbin what he has done on the end fiting on the primary rail?

Well there's a couple of things going on there. He says that he's using a rail from a 96+. Here's what he says about how they're tied in series "...I am using the test port on the primary rail as an outlet. The outlet of the primary rail leads into the test port of the secondary rail. You must use a tire valve tool to remove the shrader valve from the test port on each rail....". His 96+ rail have test ports located on the end(passenger side) of the rail, but mine doesn't. The test port on mine is on the top of the rail between injectors for cyl 1 and 2 - just like my 95 rail. But I know that it's not a 95 rail because there's no FPR or fuel return, just an inlet and test port. But none of that really matters because I wouldn't use the 5.5mm ID test port as an inlet OR outlet because it's too small.

Please check out http://www.stevetek.com/R-FuelSys.html . This guy Steve Wells did a study on the turbo model's fuel delivery system and discovered that it was inadequite for more than 450cc per cylinder. It's basically the same fuel delivery system as the non-turbo. The reason for the inadequicy has more to do with flow than it does with pressure. If you read that link you'll see what I mean. I'm upgrading the fuel delivery from the tank forward to use at least 3/8 inch fuel lines - like he did. I suppose I'd be a little less concerned about flow if I was only using 1 rail, but the secondary injectors route fuel from closer to the TOP of the rail(because the rail is kind of on an upside down angle). If I outflow the rail at any point - the secondaries will run dry more immediately than if they were right side up. I don't want to run the rail dry...and that's why I'm using 3/8 inch line from the tank to the primary rail - and 1/2 inch line from the primary to secondary rail.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I searched out that site after your original post to get some ideas. (I even borrowed some of his pics:-( ). it was a little scary to see how close the flow of the rail came to the flow capabilities of STOCK! injectors. so I agree that you are doing the right thing by starting with a high flow system at the very beginning. I hope that you will make enough power to make that worth while. steve's site is dealing with making a single rail system flow better, to keep up with a higher demand for fuel. I have to admit that I do not know the numbers that are required for an 8 injecter system, but I would imagine that you have a lot more leeway beings that the EIC only supplies fuel when the original setup becomes maxxed out (that's my understanding anyway). I see what you are doing as an extra bit of insurance against a flow problem. you are a smart man!

Back to the original question. I have thought a lot about this, and I would NOT trust JB Weld to both seal the connector into the rail AND hold the weight and tension of the lines feeding into the rail. I think that you would be sorry. the only thing that I can think of is the possibility of cleaning everything up extra well and maybe sweating the fitting in as if it were a piece of plumbing. it might be a compromise between epoxy and full fledged welding. I dont know if anyone has ever tried this, but I think that it may work. I dont know how you are setup on supplies, but even so, a propane torch can be gotten for not too much change.

just a thought.

p.s. what pumps are you using to supply this monster?

Thanks Wikki. I think I'll just have it gas/tig/mig welded on like MotoFool suggested.

The upgrade to the fuel delivery is good insurance, but I'm doing it as more of an investment. My intention is to build a fuel system once and for all - no matter what block I use(2.0, 2.4, or maybe Gary's crazy 3.0L alluminum block if he ever builds it), no matter what turbo I use, and no matter what boost I run. Out of the box with 390cc injectors in the secondary(625cc total per cyl) it'll handle somewhere around 450hp. The only thing I'll ever have to change(when I up displacement, turbo, or boost) is the programming for the extra injectors...that is unless I can crank more than 450hp - then I'll need to upgrade the secondary injectors. The thought is - If I do it right the first time, then I won't have to think much about it on down the road.

I'll be using the Walbro intank 255HP. It's already installed. I had an old Compaq Armada laptop with a broken display. Got a new display for it. Got the datalogging software and cable. Got the 034 ECU. Also got a 4 port serial card so I can datalog, program the 034 EFI, and hopefully someday run a programmable MSD(not until I get some internals) - all at the same time. All the lines are either anodized blue alluminum or stainless steel braided teflon. High flow Russell Competition fuel filter. Pressure gauge in the engine bay w/3 foot stainless hose. Most of the fittings are anodized and purpose built for high flow fuel application(Russel & Earl's). All together, including all of the computer hardware/software(serial card, 034, ODB), spare manifold, rail, injectors, fittings, lines, hoses, pump - everything will run around a grand. It can be done for much cheaper, but I want a full time/full coverage laptop for the car amd I also want all of the anodized and stainless bling.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

You've made the right decision in welding it. There is not enough surface there for epoxy to form a lasting bond. Be careful with welding to the stock rail. I think it is steel with a brass coating for corrosion resistance. It looks like the caps are brazed on to that brass coating. My welder had a fair amount of trouble getting an outlet barb to stick to that secondary rail.


Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

Thanks Corbin. I was going to have my brother's, girlfriend's, dad do it - cause he has a welder. But he's just a hobbyist. I thought the "welds" on that rail looked a little on the smallish side. I'll take it to a pro and tell him about the coating.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

I just have to say "YOU SUCK"

It is going to take me years to catch up with you!

Keep us (ME!) informed on how the work progresses please.

Find a professional welder that has a TIG welder! A TIG weld is more precise and much stronger, as long as the operator of the machine knows what he is doing.

Thanks Talow. I've heard that TIG welding was better. I'll make sure to get a TIG specialist on the job.

...and Wikki. I don't know how else to put it. Corbin's writeup + Steve's fuel system delivery suggestions = Killer EFFING fuel system. No matter how you look at it. Thats all I want. I already have all of the fuel lines/fittings and computer hardware/software. The short list:
1)Send out the 390cc injectors for cleaning/balancing
2)Have the primary rail inlet/outlets welded on
3)Tap the secondary rail and install inlet(already have bit and tap).
4)P&P intake manifold
5)Have the injector boss holes drilled(at a machine shop - my drill press is screwed up)
6)Install the injector bosses/secondary rail.
7)Purchase(last item to purchase) DC to AC power inverter to run the laptop

8)(finally)Install

I'm hoping to have it installed within 2-3 weeks. Fuel system first! Then I can concentrate on the rest of the turbo system. I'll definately keep you guys updated. I'll have plenty of pictures and parts lists and whatnot.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

:thumbsup :7

Jim,

1st off, your fuel setup sounds VERY impressive! good luck w/ everything

2nd, noticed that you plan on running the 034 eic w/ the dsm injectors. Can the 034 eic control low imp. injectors as is, or are you going to have to add resistors or something to make it work? reason im asking is i got a 1g rail w/ stock fpr, injectors, injector harness dirt cheap (free + shipping ;) thanks adam!!!)

Thanks Ryan. I've decided to go with the Aeromotive FPR and run a 3/8 inch return line, so one more shoppinng spree at Summit should get me there.....but it's coming along.

Yep they'll work just like they are - without having to install resistors. I ask Javad(the 034 guy) and he confirmed it. I couldn't quite figure it out from the web site, but he sent an e-mail and cleared it up for me. Here's his explanation of how many of what impedance injectors can be used PER driver:
------------------
With regard to your injector question, basicall you can run up to 5 high impedance (12-14ohms) injectors per driver, then only 1 - 1.0-1.4ohm and 2 - 2-4ohm.
------------------

So the 390s I have all measured 2.7-2.9 ohms. We can put 2 injectors on each driver(just like in Corbins writeup) without the need for resistors.

Good luck with the 8 injector conversion.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html