I was told tonight that someone was making around 300 HP NA. Saw the bay. stock TB, no header, short ram, etc. I would assume that 300 is very hard to make and that you would need a cai, header, etc to get you that much closer. How realistic is 300 HP?

I know that with high comp, headwork, cams, p&p, TB, etc you can achieve around 200 or pretty close. Is 300 even worth considering? I don't think so. I talked with another guy to make sure. They said they same as me. 200-ish. why do people feel they must BS. Oh, the guy said he's gonna put his stage 5 on soon. Stage 5 is rebuild with high boost correct? Wouldn't this mean boom for a high comp engine?
I'm raising my BS flag high until someone can lower it with some dyno pulls. :nono

Honda's barely even make 250 HP all motor so how the hell would a mopar?

BS

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Car Sold


http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/
www.Fast420A.com

I don't think I like that statement Kyle... I trust Mopar far more to produce power than Honda. But if he was making 300hp... you would hear it.

I say 250 range is possible with proper building. There was a 300hp racing 420A made, that was put in a Stratus. It was a serious motor I wouldn';t recommend using in a street car. I don't see the driveability being there.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

300hp is the best all motor civic...its a drag car... saw it in friggin um.. new york times.. heh.

and... remember.. theres also jacketing+boring... (whereby titanium is put inside the channels where water would normally flow, and the cylinders are bored out a LOT)... Friends civic got jacketed + bored to 2.2.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30C1EFF3A5A0C7A8CDDA80894DB404482

^there it is...

For a STREET car, 250hp or so naturally aspirated is about it for a pratical application. I don't think 300 is pratical or realistic. Alot of those drag hondas weigh nothing, that's why they are fast they aren't making alot of hp in the grand scheme of things.

The s2000 has the vtec which means it acts like a "normal" engine at low rpms and a race engine at high rpms. Without that, I'm sure it wouldn't be too fun to drive an S2000 at 2500 rpms on the high end cam lobes. Try driving around on crane #18 race cams at 2000 rpms and you'll see what I mean.

I have not seen a dyno over 140hp so if somebody is making more all motor post up the pull!!! 300 is pure bull shit though I doubt many of the turbo guys are even that high unless on a rebuild. Everybody can talk few have proof I can sit here and say when my car is back together its going to lay down 200+whp but untill I get on a dyno and prove it that statement does not mean jack (BTW I doubt I will be making 120 at the wheels that was just an example)

...I don't think 300 is possible and streetable, but hondas can make the 250HP mark. There was a 2.3L h23 block and H22 head at Dynamics. I don't have his Dyno :( but he was making 257WHP and it was very streetable. Right now there is an H22 making 230.3 from import tuner (I don't know how realiable that is) and countless GSR's making 200+WHP on hybrid. Extracting 60 HP from our engine can be done except nobody has taken the time to put in the work. All that power for us is coming out of headwork and boltons with high octane. With some bowl work 8K rpms, #18 cams, flow-porting you could be approaching 30 HP and mill or raised CR pistons to 12.5 you are nearing 190HP and you haven't even added any other modifications. I think VX100 is probably in the 175-180 range. what if he added 2 or even 3 points of compression. That is an 8-12 percent power increase. He would be looking at 190-195 with 11.6:1 compression and stil able to run 91 octane without any ignition retard. I'd also have to agree with Michael that I trust making good power from a Mopar than a Honda.

a 2.0 isn't gonna get over 200 tho without some serious $$$ and mods. Maybe ITB's and all that shit, but nothing minor that looks like a short ram and that's it. :+

That was a little sarcasm, sorry Mr. Moderator ;-)

As far as the Super Touring Stratus goes, it was a 2.0L with an 8200 rpm redline and 12:1 compression and what ever other mods racing teams can afford, making 280HP but I am pretty sure that was on an engine dyno so that's more like 240 or so to the wheels.


Don't worry , I'm still all Mopar or no car.

________________________________________________________________________________________
Car Sold


http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/
www.Fast420A.com

i agree.....if anyone can make 300 hp at the wheels with a 2.0 liter anything, id like to see it. I would be suprised to even see 300 at the crank. The torque output to attain that high of hp level would be very low. It would be entirely unstreetable. F1 cars make 800 hp but their torque levels are so low that they need to spin the tires to start. I dont see it happening unless you find a way to spin the motor over 10 grand with some serious head work.

I think its possible. You'll need something more than Crane 0018 cams though. Honda's are up in the mid to high .4xx lift range on the VTEC lobes. Really good head work and lightened valvetrain. Lots of RPM's. Also, hi-compression pistons, and balanced nbottom end, individual throttle bodies (I think Blackdog makes some out of Neon MTX throttle bodies. You should be in the 250 range at least.

lol... I thought the married with children life might have turned your brain into mush. When it comes to NA, there is no replacement for displacement.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

>Extracting 60 HP from our engine can be done except nobody has
>taken the time to put in the work.

I agree. Simply put, most people mod the turbo cars, that's why it hasn't been done.

>All that power for us is
>coming out of headwork and boltons with high octane. With some
>bowl work 8K rpms, #18 cams, flow-porting you could be
>approaching 30 HP and mill or raised CR pistons to 12.5 you
>are nearing 190HP and you haven't even added any other
>modifications.

Sounds like a good recipe for power. The question is, who "streetable" are the #18 cams on the bottom end?

>I think VX100 is probably in the 175-180 range.

That soulds approxomately right, for the weight of the car compared to the 1/4 mile time. 15.4s with a total weight of 2890 lbs at the track doesn't happen with 140 hp :)

>what if he added 2 or even 3 points of compression. That is an
>8-12 percent power increase. He would be looking at 190-195
>with 11.6:1 compression and stil able to run 91 octane without
>any ignition retard.

Hey, stop giving me ideas ;)

>I'd also have to agree with Michael that
>I trust making good power from a Mopar than a Honda.

As would I.

>>I think VX100 is probably in the 175-180 range.
>
>That soulds approxomately right, for the weight of the car
>compared to the 1/4 mile time. 15.4s with a total weight of
>2890 lbs at the track doesn't happen with 140 hp :)
>
>>what if he added 2 or even 3 points of compression. That is
>an
>>8-12 percent power increase. He would be looking at 190-195
>>with 11.6:1 compression and stil able to run 91 octane
>without
>>any ignition retard.
>
>Hey, stop giving me ideas ;)

Ideas aren't the problem... enough money is.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

ya I don't thnk anyone could run #18 without say 2.4L!

Anyway VX100 you have got to be drooling when I mention a damn near free 15+ HP from just a head mill. There is like 5 shops in my immediate area that would mill your head for 20-35 bucks. Not much for 15 ponies all day long and I'm sure there are some in your area too OR you could go the easy way. Just a few years ago the only thing shops would do is take a micrometer and just sand down the head with sandpaper (a fine grit too) while tkign measurements at each corner of the head if you were looking down at it staring into the valvecover (of coarse it would be removed). They would lay the head on a true material like a big metal bench or some perfect wood surface and make sure the head would lay right and flat. By eye balling it from one length of the head to the other one could quite easily see any unperfect marks or unsanded areas. Anyway several machine shops would do this as a cheap way to mill and it works but take some looking at. I'd do that if 35 bucks weren't handy. It sounds kinda ghetto but it works

#18 cams should be streetable the neon guys can do it with 22's ina 2.0 why cant we??

as Armond says if the car idles its streetable...

the #18cams are puny for a 2.4 they are building 24, and 26's now to satisfy the need of the 2.4, or 2.6 (bored over,

there are 2.6 13:1 pistons being made at the moment to mate up with some 24's and lots of other goodies...

if u ran 22's ITB's UDP remove p/s a/c knife edged the crank lightened flywheel, aluminum rods, hi comp pistons 12-12.5:1, fully ported head, a nice header and a upgraded ignition with some fine tuning i think that u could get close to 250whp out of the car...

i think that setup would get 250whp^

now think about this 2.4 bored to 2.6, 13:1 pistons , ceramic coated pistons ailicone coated side skirts, chumbusiton chamber ceramic coated, full RACE port, OS valves, crower spring and TI retainers, crower titanium rods,(or forward motion GRP's) knife edged bottom end, aluminum flywheel, no p/s no a/c, udp, header, race intake setup(custom sheetmetal)
(or ITB's)

with that setup i dont think 300whp is the limit....

^^^drooling. So many plans... so many idea... so little money. Someone give me a good job!!!



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

wow so many ideas so little money. Maybe I should get the car running again before I start dreaming of building up the head and thinking of 12:1 pistons................

Hey Michael, Looks like people are starting to see the power that is possible with the All Motor 420A like we've known for YEARS!


________________________________________________________________________________________
Car Sold


http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/
www.Fast420A.com

Amen Brother!

Hopefully after my head gasket repair and a little exhaust work, I can start to show some good numbers. Wee shall see.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

>#18 cams should be streetable the neon guys can do it with
>22's ina 2.0 why cant we??
>
>as Armond says if the car idles its streetable...
>
>the #18cams are puny for a 2.4 they are building 24, and 26's
>now to satisfy the need of the 2.4, or 2.6 (bored over,
>
>there are 2.6 13:1 pistons being made at the moment to mate up
>with some 24's and lots of other goodies...
>
>if u ran 22's ITB's UDP remove p/s a/c knife edged the crank
>lightened flywheel, aluminum rods, hi comp pistons 12-12.5:1,
>fully ported head, a nice header and a upgraded ignition with
>some fine tuning i think that u could get close to 250whp out
>of the car...
>
>i think that setup would get 250whp^
>
>now think about this 2.4 bored to 2.6, 13:1 pistons , ceramic
>coated pistons ailicone coated side skirts, chumbusiton
>chamber ceramic coated, full RACE port, OS valves, crower
>spring and TI retainers, crower titanium rods,(or forward
>motion GRP's) knife edged bottom end, aluminum flywheel, no
>p/s no a/c, udp, header, race intake setup(custom sheetmetal)
>
>(or ITB's)
>
>with that setup i dont think 300whp is the limit....
>
>

damn I wish I knew where my other post was but ya more than 300 is attainable on the 2.4...but my question is who sells the 13:1 pistons cause that would be a sweet setup with an overbored 2.4L. I have 2.5L BUT even with sonic and magnaflux testing an overbore of like 120+ is severly limiting engine longevity and as good as the extra tenth of engine sounds NA it just isn't worth it. I have 12.5:1CR right now with 2.5L and pretty good mods (certainly good for over 250HP) but if you haven't really looked at 2.6L the walls are quite thin for 320+HP, which is what would be possible for 2.6. I'd have to wait until someone else runs that high an overbore on 7.2K redline repeatedly as hard as I drive my car. For now the 2.5L makes enough power for dishing out kills, but as everyone elses car, it's not done yet.

bob stockum is getting them made by weisco with smooth tops radial gas ports the whole shot...

plus honda guys have been doing this for years and years basically, where the 2gnt thing is fairly new. bigger things like the ecu and stuff andjust getting out now. id say give it some time and things will get much better and faster.

intake, 2.5 exhaust w/gst muffler, pacesetter header, msd wires, ngk plugs, port and polish throttlebody, front and rear strut bars, 1.5' tenzo springs, 17" primax rims, kuhmo tires, leather interior, gsx sideskirts, BM shortshifter, GM fluid in trans...

All i can say is wait till my motors done!, u guys will finally be able to say dam, a 420a just ran that time!:thumbsup remember i am crazy and i got the money to do it

>now think about this 2.4 bored to 2.6, 13:1 pistons , ceramic coated >pistons ailicone coated side skirts, chumbusiton chamber ceramic >coated, full RACE port, OS valves, crower spring and TI retainers, >crower titanium rods,(or forward motion GRP's) knife edged bottom >end, aluminum flywheel, no p/s no a/c, udp, header, race intake setup(custom sheetmetal)
(or ITB's)

Great plan, but that would be EXPENSIVE! Fast, but expensive.

>All i can say is wait till my motors done!, u guys will
>finally be able to say dam, a 420a just ran that
>time!:thumbsup remember i am crazy and i got the money to do
>it

I'd like to see it. And yes, the honda guys have been doing the extensive all motor mods for a while, but they have been willing to spend many thousands of dollars to do this, most people modding cars cant' do this, only so many people have the time or money.

Unfortunately going fast does take a fair amount of money.

back on topic,

even if he could build a 420a up to 300hp all motor the cams used to get an NA motor that high would be useless on a forced induction setup.

not neccisarily...

i was talking to armond about this and we could potentially if tuned right get power out of like 22's and hi boost 20psi and above, the only thing would be adv/retarding the exhuast cam to stay closed longer so more air can be forced in..

the bigger the lift the better...

noones tried it except for phat ridz and they are running 22/24's now were running 18's and they are considered puny now(18's)

hey guys....a 300 hp NA is NOT a dream or like 10g's being the guy that everyone said that i couldnt do the urban legend AT with NA....i know the setup i had planned was gonna give me about 250 or higher. oh and i was lookin at spendin only bout 3-4g's.
ps...for michael_97, for a good paying job try discount tire full time...30k a year start out.

If I can get hired by one of the PD's around here I'll start around 40k. Just need to get through all teh testign and have a job opening.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC