Looks like I'm picking up a 1997GS 5sp 55K with a blown engine--my first DSM. Don't know how bad the enging is, but I will likely be looking for a rebuilt engine shortly (if anyone knows a reputable rebulder near GA). Since it has been sitting for a year, I will also replace all brakes/clutch, etc.. Having read though many turbo message threads on the boards, I have decided against going Turbo. It seems like too much risk, aggravation, and constant mainanance, which conflict seriously with my reliability requirement for the car (reliability is #1, fun to drive #2--I will not be racing it). So, I am now looking at the best way to improve performance non-turbo. If between the engine purchase/repair and mods I can keep that cost under $5K, that would be great.

This site has been a amazing resource, but when it comes to itemizing mods from a cost/benefit/HP standpoing, I am struggling to find what I need. Perhaps I just haven't been able to find it. A thread like this for example:

-----------------------------------------
Dude, congratulations on the car. As long as you are starting from scratch, here is what I did/have seen done and what I recommend IN ORDER:

1) Engine Item #1, X-dollars, get you estimated X-HP
2) Engine Item #2, X-dollars, get you estimated X-HP
3) Exhaust Item #1, X-dollars, get you estimated X-HP
4) Ignition Item #1, X-dollars, get you estimated X-HP
5) Clutch/Brakes Item #1, X-Dollars, get X-better perfomance.

You guys are the pros on this stuff, so what you say holds much weight.

Awww whats wrong wif turbo? the reason you never hear about the "success" stories is because positive stuff makes for boring threads!!

my oil leak woulda happened regardless of whether I was boostin' or not... thats the only problem I've ever had... Well... and blowing the low grade bolts off of the downpipe on my first night owning the car... hehehe

I myself dont really know any good shops, but shuwa might be able to help you out. I stay in Marietta area, where do you live?

Get ahold of Armond (Avenger EST). He lives up in you area and might be willing to help out. He's one of the top 420A gurus on the board.

Thanks for the advice. I will try to kook up with those guys. I live east of Atlanta, out toward Snellville, and would love to hook up with some of the guys mentioned. As far as why not turbo, I guess you are right that positive stories don't make the headlines. But when things go wrong with turbo, the seem to go REALLY wrong--requiring massive repairs. Besides that, I was hoping to do most of the work myself--and I would not be real confident installing turbo. Perhaps it is easier that in seems, I dont know. Switching out an engine/clutch/brakes is easy enough to do over time--and I am confident doing that. But if turbo is $2K and gets you 60 extra HP, while non-turbo mods cost $3K and get you 30 HP, then I might consider turbo. That is what I am trying to figure out, and what I have not been able to find info on.

Thanks!

do not listen to every misconception you hear about our car. if you turbo your transmission will go, sell it and buy 1g.no matter what you do it will never go faster than my gs-(t/x),sell it and buy a 1g.i know a guy who has a cousin and he said you car is just a neon with an eclipse mask on, sell it and buy a 1g.end rant! don't listen to them alot of local webboards will try to discourage you but come back here for sanctuary.good luck

heres the scoop, research turbos, buy the book called maximum boost by corky bell very good source of information hit the web research turbo systems,

i can provide u with over half the stuff u need to make a turbo system on these cars, the only thing u need to decide is which turbo u want used new etc, and what fuel setup 8 injector vers a rising rate regulator like the sfmu from vortech,

manifold 250$
oil line kit 80$
used turbo 300$ or under,
100$in piping, witha 1g/2g smic 50-75$ for one of these

400$ for fuel setup depending which one u choose

50$ fuel cut defender ie missing link,


all that is about 1250$ or so not to bad for an extra 50-100hp,

now if u do get crazy or dont tune the car then u will have to rebuild exces boost on stock motor = cracking a piston ring land = 4 new pistons and rods,

turbos really aren't that techincal once u learn about them, our cars n/a are dogs, unless u got 2.4 with big cams


so other then turbo u have the next best option being a 2.4 swap and build n/a this will cost about 2500-3g's to get 250whp, and have worse gas milage thent he turbo setup depending on how much boost and if u boost *all* the time

How about all you non-turbo 420A's out there. What do you think? What have you beed able to get out of your non-turbo 420A? Is there no one out there that will play devils advocate on the issue?

i like both when i get back from military training i will be going turbo(don't trust wife with car and me in san antonio till august). i have a buddy that is turbo and i love his car, it is a perfect sleeper people see black door handles,rs on the back and think they will walk it. WRONGO each setup has it's ups and downs. you could always go 2.4 turbo. hehehejpg:thumbsup


http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/data/500/2965dsc00469-med.

The 420a engine has what I feel is endless potential. Since you dont want to go turbo (even aftermarket) I would advise you to change intake, header, and exhaust... Then cam gears, underdrive pully. You really dont have to change internals but why not just rebuild your engine and throw some nice pistons and rods in it. Also since once again you dont want to go turbo, you can go with a high compression ratio... Dont flame if Im wrong but Im pretty sure that every point in ratio is like 4 percent add to the engine. So I think are engine is rated 140 by the factory so if you up the compression 1 point thats like 6hp so if you took it even higher then that would go higher too (one point wouldnt be a lot you would want to go higher if your not going to boost in anyway.)

I too decided against GS-t on the simple fact of the factory turbo is pointless. I'm not saying turbo is pointless but the factory one is nothing to cheer about. Its not worth the insurance costs. Buy an Rs and get an aftermarket and call it a day, better yet, a week.

If you're going to rebuild, definately at least throw some high-comp pistons in. It's probably the most crucial component of having a "fun" N/A car to drive. I wish there was some magic list that i could put out - a=blahHP, b=blahHP, c=blahHP - but it doesn't work like that. It works more like a+b+c=blahHP. Lets say if you were to get 12.5:1 pistons with stronger rods($1000), some street cams($400), intake($50-$100), TB ported($100?), header($200-400), catback($400)....you would have alot more power. Maybe somewhere around 180-190hp. No matter what mods you have - if you get a UDP($160) you'll get a bit more power to the road(maybe 10hp). If you get an S-AFC($350) and some cam gears and dyno time($250 for the gears, $80hr for dyno time) then you could tune it to run even better. 200-220hp isn't impossible from the 420a, 250hp is the upper limits of what you'll get with a full out race setup(headwork, valves, ignition, etc).


ride__________95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
power________Field SFC Hyper-R : Gude cams : Jeep TB : AFX UDP : ram air : test pipe : GST catback
suspention___Hurricane F/R lower strut ties : BOMZ F/R upper strut bars : ES inserts
sound________Kenwood KDC 5000 : Audiovox 8" sub toob : Xplod 222
shizzle_______AutoCommand remote start : dual air horns : Caspers o2 simulator(rear)
incomming___Bosal header(maybe), 14b turbosystem(eventually)
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Unfortunetely our cars do not respond as well to bolt ons as other cars do. BUT, bolt ons can be the supporting cast for bigger and better things such as high compression pistons as Jim said above. Intake/header/exhaust may give you 10 hp with a stock 2gnt, but you raise the compression and that number may jump to 15, or 20. Get some headwork done and the header may give you ten by itself... this is why its hard to give exact numbers. Too many variables.

Check out the main page, under sections you will see stages. This is a quick rundown of some numbers you can expect from the most common mods. There is a TON of information on this board, probably an answer to any question you could think of. You just have to look a little bit.

I would recommend turbo and rebuilt motor for most cost effective power. Eric R from socal spent 8k to get about 200 hp at the wheels, which is not very cost effective. He did pretty much everything to his car, but it still didn't have nearly as much power as a stage 2 turbo. Since you're asking for cost effective, I would go turbo. Just keep in mind the risks of blowing the motor. I personally did not go turbo because of that, since I need a reliable daily driver.

sell your car and get a civic and put in an integra engine! j/k..bolt ons add power but not as much as a turbo would add.. and if you don't do any internal upgrades to your engine your turbo will probably end up blowing your engine. If you want a reliable car with turbo you either need to rebuild the engine and upgrade pistons and what not or buy a GST/GSX.. but someone said above the factory turbos aren't anything good..but i've seen MANY people get into mid 13s with factory turbo. Friend ran a 13.4 with exhaust, 16 psi, intake, cams, and injectors. no front mount..no upgraded turbo..not even upgraded intercooler pipes. 1Gs have been known to run even lower because the 14b is a better turbo then the T-25..but not by much. most people with GST/GSXs who don't want to spend the money of a big16g or some other big turbo will buy a $300-500 turbo..like a FP Big T-28 is a good turbo. People put 14Bs in their 2Gs too. i try not to mod my car too much because it's my daily driver and i drive it to college which is 7 hours away. If this was a spare care i'd upgrade the turbo, get a front mount, exhaust system..everything..but i need something reliable.

If you want to go all motor, during you rebuild definately put in some high compression pistons. If you are looking for a fun to drive car, go higher compression (maybe 10.5:1...) Put in some cams, get all the bolt ons and go. UDP, header, high flow cat, cat-back, intake, porting and polishing (might as well do a little on the head while the motor is part), a good clutch for it all, and then upgrade your suspension and have fun driving around.

If you are going to go turbo, definately do some research. Read up on how it works and how to tune it.

Either way you go, chances are you will become addicted to power ;) and want more. In which case you will need to know how to tune the car. If you want a fun car you can get the work done by somebody. But if you want a really fast car I suggest doing a lot of the work yourself. Know how the car is put together, and be ready to fix it when something goes wrong.

1997 Eclipse RS (in winter slumber for head gasket repair and other projects)

He who knows men is clever; He who knows himself has insight.
He who conquers men has force; He who conquers himself is truly strong.
-Lao Tzu

Injen CAI, AFX 55mm TB, P&P Intake Manifold, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Apexi S-AFC

I am also gonna hafta say turbo. They are a lot of fun and you will learn a lot building/maintaining/driving the car, and it will be fantastically fun to drive.
-=B-=

I will play the devils advocate here and say all-motor would be cool as hell! But as far as your budget goes, $5,000, you can do a nice turbo setup and get everything working great for that much money and have a lot of HP. If you go all-motor, it's going to take longer to get all the stuff done and you will end up with less HP in the longrun.

I'm thinking about going all-motor too, but I still have a lot of research to put into it and see how much it will cost to get some good performance out of it, and how much it's going to cost. Good luck with whatever you want to do.

'98 Talon Esi
Apex'i N1 Catback Exhaust|Greddy 4-1 Header|Bosch Platinum +4 Plugs|Iceman CAI|Upper Front & Rear Strut Bars|

>
>so other then turbo u have the next best option being a 2.4
>swap and build n/a this will cost about 2500-3g's to get
>250whp, and have worse gas milage thent he turbo setup
>depending on how much boost and if u boost *all* the time


You will be very lucky to have a streetable NA 250whp 420a, even if you go 2.4. Its very possible, i just question how streetable it would be

Scott Moehler's drag neon makes 250whp

Even the old chrsyler backed stratus touring cars only made 300 crank hp out of a complete race-prepped 420a, and that was with a chrysler funding.

My buddy's streetable NA 2.4 neon made over 200whp, so you can make some decent power NA, just like you and everyone said, its not nearly as cost effective.

also, a 250whp turbo 420a will be MUCH more liveable and reliable than a 250whp NA 420a.

I hate to be rude....but why are people saying "turbo" "yeah go turbo" or "I would get a turbo if you want to spend 5000"...... The guy said he dint want to go turbo and wanted to know other things... I hate being rude but the question was asked and it seems only about half are giving answers that even come close to fitting the question. I guess thats just my thoughts...

It's the nature of a "discussion board" or forum. You go where the conversation leads you.

If this was merely a Question & Answer Session, then we would have to re-define or institute new rules to the board. However, being that it is a forum, merely asking a question doesn't necessarily mean that you'll only get, or be limited to, conversation or thoughts from individuals pertaining specifically to your question. Moreover, and I'm sure this is the case more than not, if people, like Ryan, have interesting facts to offer that do not necessarily answer your question, but peripherally relate to the flow of the conversation at hand, most people are more than happy to hear it.

So please understand, this is the way it goes here at 2GNT Forum. :-)

On the topic at hand, you can extricate from what Ryan has said, that although the original poster was looking for ways to maximize his NT potential, besides obvious upgrades that have already been posted and replied to by other posters, that you will be limited in the performance that you attain through n/a modifications, at least when compared to turbo upgrades. I think the merits of a turbo upgrade versus n/a upgrades are entirely approropriate, given the poster's orginal premise: "(Turbocharging) seems like too much risk, aggravation, and constant mainanance, which conflict seriously with my reliability requirement for the car (reliability is #1, fun to drive #2--I will not be racing it)." Hence, going too far, or modifying heavily, with n/a upgrades ALSO will effect the reliability, and fun-factor of your 2GNT.

You guys have actually given me exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping to start a debate relative to my situation with people who know their 420s. That is exactly what has happened--well done boys.

Is it my understanding then, that the reason a turbo is so unreliable on a 420A is that the additional heat generated by the turbo can melt the internals--that the 420A engine was not designed for that, but that switching out the internals for forged, along with keeping the car in good tune, could produce reliability and fun mentioned above? Is that the case? And finally, since I have not driven a 5sp NA Eclipse with say 170HP, is it really that much of a dog?

he also asked for everyone to step and give their own opinion. this actually has turned into a very good thread.

>a turbo is so unreliable on a 420A is that the additional heat generated by the turbo can melt the internals

i thought it was because over time the stock piston rings would eventually give and crack.
EDIT: and not tuning it correctly.

What about nitrous? I am so sick of the Sh*t that my turbo is giving me, I need a reliable car and it has become a very un-reliable car! If I would have bought a kit then this outcome MIGHT be completly different. If you want some turbo horor stories then I think that all will be able contribute or email me...
With that said what about nitrous? Our cars can run a 75 shot with no problem. Also I noticed that he has a 97 which means that he has access to the new ECU. I think that a non turbo 97 with 5g's invested in it will be a lot more reliable.
This is just personal opinion as
I just dont have the time or money to keep the turbo thing going... and I would hate to see someone else in my spot.


Nick
97RS
Custom IHI Stage2
Obx exhaust, Limo Tint,
Custom interior, Upper Strut Bar, Kenwood/pioneer stereo.

why are some of guys so upset about unreliability? come on, it's not even that bad. hell, it's half of the fun!

but anyways, i'd guess that if you're lucky you might be able to get about 200 WHP out of a fully built, street cammed, fully electronically tuned, etc 420a. it would be very expensive, but you'd have an insane all-motor car that could take even some of the stage 1-2 turbo guys depending on how well you shift. then again, if you don't HAVE to shift, that's another story. maybe 185-190 WHP out of an automatic with a similar setup? anyways, i'm done now.

Well, ok... I understand topics lead into other topics... So I well agree, turbo is the best thing you can do for an eclipse. I think the biggest problem is our cars weight like 50 billion lbs. No offense to everyone whos going all-motor, good luck too you. But the idea of clawing and scratching my way past the 15 mark is not what I have in mind
.

>I am so sick of the Sh*t that my turbo
>is giving me, I need a reliable car and it has become a very
>un-reliable car! If I would have bought a kit then this
>outcome MIGHT be completly different. If you want some turbo
>horor stories then I think that all will be able contribute
>or email me...
>This is just personal opinion as
> I just dont have the time or money to keep the turbo thing
>going... and I would hate to see someone else in my spot.

How do you expect to have a reliable turbo setup with piecing together mismatched parts that aren't tried and true? I also see that you've got less than 300 miles on your setup. Try tuning some more. Just try not to steer him in the wrong direction about going turbo. HRC and Star kits are proven very reliable even on stock engines! That's a fact.

alright heres the deal teh reson people say turbo on 2gnt is un reliable is cause our stock pistons and rods weren't meant for the pwoer the boost above 11psi on stock stuf tends to crack ring lands and then your done, if u dont crack a ring land at about 18psi your stock rods with bend sideways,

throw in some forged units pistons and rods and your good to 30psi *PROPERLY TUNED*

turbo when done *correctly* usging proven parts is a reliable setup as long as u research what your doing,

dougie2 is currently building a custom turbo kit with my help for the oil line and manifold setup,

with 5k to spend your gonna have a nicely setup stage 2/3either custom or not,

the weak parts on our cars are int he pistons and rods, and axles if u plan on launching the car at all,


so if u go turbo put in some weisco forged pistons about 400$

eagle rods are about 350$
lower end gasket set 30$
upper end set 90$
300$ in misc parts replacment oil pump water pump timing belt and tensioner etc...

custom turbo kit or HRC and your set for some good fun if u go HRC i recommend and so doeseveryone else a SuperFuelManagement Unit(Sfmu) from vortech right off the bat HRC has a crappy fuel pressure unit...

if u go custom i recomend a EIC(extra injector controller) and run 4 extra 19# or so injectors that kickin when boost hits to supply the extra fuel...

if ya want more help were here and ill help ya out as others will if turbo is the way u want to go if not i can lay out the na 2.4/2.2 options u got and help u that way, and welcome to the 2gnt family!!

Bill aka MotoFool