LAST EDITED ON 09-Oct-01 AT 07:58 AM (PST)

I understand trying to reason with both sides of the story, but don't be clouded by anger. The united states has not jumped into any battle without lots of forthought and planning. We have traced the money trails and everythign is pointing to the Multi Millionaire, Osama bin Ladin. We are positive of it and have passed a 20+ page report to other nations. The Taliban will not recieve the full document because it contains sensitive information on HOW we get our secrets.
Osama bin Ladin is guilty, do not fool yourself. He's responsible for the 1st WTC bombng, the 2 embassy bombings in afrida, the bombing on the U.S.S. Cole (and another ship before that one), and he is responsible for the World Trade Center again, plane crash in Pittsburg and the plane crash at the Pentagon.

But hey, let's make a scenario, let's say Bin Ladin had NOTHING to do with the WTC attacks. Then guess what? These attacks on the Taliban and Osama Bin Ladin are still RIGHT because Osama Bin Ladin has done many terrorist acts to our country prior to the collapse of WTC. I don't give a flying fuck if he killed one American life before WTC, our demands and actions are reaonable.

There truly is no difference between a terrorst and those who aid them. The Taliban have had their warning, hand him and the AL-Quaeda network over or share their same fate.

We have already explored both sides. Osama Bin Ladin an the Taliban have no merrit for their actions. America is a peaceful country and did not ask for nor deserve this. We are hated because of our different beliefs. (freedom, womens rights, learning, compassion, freedom of religions.) This is just plain WRONG.

I wish this war was over, I wish the Taliban weren't idiots, I wish Bin Ladin could see how brainwashed he is by his own version of the Islamic religion. I don't give a shit if they run around with diapers on their head in that oversized kitty litter box killing themselves over some damn religion. (Like that have been for decades) Keep that shit out of MY house.

And in reply to the Tim McVeigh comment, true, thank god all americans aren't stereotyped as wacko bombers. However, Tim McVeigh didn't have any anti-america cheerleaders passing out candy celebrating in the streets after what he did.

-Nick

Is it just a lot cheaper to buy this complete head and find all the parts for it? If it saves me a ton of money, I think I might do it. I have some other questions for you guys...

1. How much do I bore it out i mean in numbers like .10 and .20 and stuff? I wanna bore it out, but not loose any power.

2. How much does it cost to bore this out?

3. How much would it be to have this installed into my car?

Please feed me tons of info on this topic.

-Nick

No one that I know of makes a head for our car. If I were you I would buy the head for $250, I haven't really seen a used head for under $300. Then send it away to get the 3 or 5 angle valve job, 7 is too much. Do you plan on staying NT? is so you may want to concider milling the head for a boost in compression. You can find stainless steel valves. When Howell comes out with the ECU for our car, it should raise redline. Yeah I know don't hold my breath. In which case to handle the extra stress you should look for a good set of titanium springs and retainers. Crane makes a good set. Depending on how much you want done you can get anythign from mild porting and smoothign of the airflow surfaces to a full race port and polish of the surfaces. I was looking at the extrude hone website yesterday and came across that they do head work also. I think this may be the way I go when I get my head work done. Do a 5 angle valve job get the passages extrude honed and mill the head .050" with a .022" head gasket to achieve a compression ratio of about 11.5:1. By the time I get the money and am ready to do this Crower might be out with their billet cams, and I'll go that way. If not pick some specs and get a custom grind done. Add some cam gears to correct for the milling of the head and be set.

Any questions?

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17.

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. Silver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads.

Waiting for from RRE: Front Lower Tie Bar, SS Clutch Line.

Yes, I am looking to stay complete naturaly aspirated. No NOS, Turbos, or Superchargers. I want to do this and keep the motor running safe. This is my daily driver. I don't want it to break down because of things I've done to mess with it.

So what's best for me to do, while still staying safe, no turbo or nos, and without loosing power. I am an automatic, too! Does this change anything?

Which do you recommend to do, keeping the above mentioned in mind?

a. 3 angle valve job or 5 angle?
b. No need to mill the head since, im staying n/a, right?
c. Exactly what parts do I need and where to get them.

I don't wanna blow my motor, and this car isn't a drag racer! I just want to add a lot of horsepower and stay safe!

Please guys, spoon-feed me ... I am very lost on this topic and need every last itching detail before I jump in head first.

-Nick

You might want to consider the stroker kit (from skrilla). Especially since you're an auto. It should make the motor into about a 2.2-2.3L engine plus it will broaden your power band (correct me if I'm wrong here) which is good since in an auto you shift just below your power band when you shift out (especially the 2nd-3rd shift). I'm guessing that will help it a bit. Downside, it's not cheap. You can get more info from skrilla.

As for the whole porting, milling. Since this isn't a drag racer or anything and you want to keep it relatively safe, I'd get all the typical bolt-ons first. Headers, exhaust, intake, bored TB, ported Intake manifold, UDP, and maybe an AFC. See if that quenches your thirst for speed. If you port the head you'll probably need an afc for fuel concerns. If you mill the head you'll probably need cam gears to tune it for good returns. I think eclipse804 put up some prices on porting the head when he did his. Do a search it was a little while ago. Labor for getting it installed ... I'm not sure but I'm guessing in the 600-800 range if not more. Just a guess though.


-Avenger
99 Eclipse RS out of the shop!! :)

>So what's best for me to do, while still staying safe,
>no turbo or nos, and without loosing power. I am
>an automatic, too! Does this change anything?

Being auto does change things a little. I would suggest to first do some trans work, before you do head work. I nice higher stall torque converter and ultimately a shift kit would be nice. If you can get a TCU that woudl allow higher shift would be the ultimate. You'd have to ask one of the auto guru's here, I just know level 10 does osme good work and has stuff availabel for us.

What kind of budget are you working with? This will depend on how radical to get.

>Which do you recommend to do, keeping the above mentioned in
>mind?
>
>a. 3 angle valve job or 5 angle?

If you don't want to get nuts I would say a nice 3 angle valve job with porting and polishing would do you good. This set up for Marcus didn't help his top end but he said increase the midrange torque etc. Which being autop should do you good, give you some very useable street power.

>b. No need to mill the head since, im staying n/a, right?

No, mill the head, mill the head, mill the head! You should switch to premuim gas and this will run you at higher compression. Do a search and Skrilla has a some great posts on what to mill for what compression ratio, i think I started the post back when I first started to figure out what to do to my head. I think they are all based on a .022" head gasket. for example milling .050" with the .022" HG will give a compression ratio of approx. 11.5:1 compaired to stock 9.6:1. What compression ratio you want to go with is up to you, I want a high compression motor so I'm going with 11.5:1. A set of adjustable cam gears would be a good idea if you do this because taking the material off the head will slightly offset the timing. And the cam gears will allow you to tune the car for more power anyway.

>c. Exactly what parts do I need and where to get them.

You'll need a shop to do all the milling and porting. Like I said I'm leaning towards a place to send my head off for extrude honing. Stainless Steel valves and titanium springs and retaines would be nice, but aren't necessay if you plan on keeping the stock redline. AEM Cam Gears are the cheapest at Howell Automotive, and they also do machine work, so does Road Race and Marcus posted prices a while ago, CNNP Racing also does porting work. The thin head gasket is I think http://www.headgasket.com I boost in compression and the porting should do your motor wonders.

I do want to advice that you make sure you have a good intake set up and exhaust set up. This won't do you any good if the head is outflowing the exhaust or intake. A good cold air intake, 55mm TB ported polished intake manifold. Along with header and at least a higher flowing muffler, I would recommend doing first

>I don't wanna blow my motor, and this car isn't a
>drag racer! I just want to add a lot of
>horsepower and stay safe!

Skrilla had a 420A running 12.5:1 compression for a little while as a test mule and it didn't knock.

>Please guys, spoon-feed me ... I am very lost on
>this topic and need every last itching detail before I
>jump in head first.
>
>-Nick

Hey, we all have been new to one aspect of our car at one time or another. Hell, I don't claim to know everything about our motor. I've learned more than I can probably remember from everybody here, so don't feel lost or stupid for asking questions, that's why we are here. Aside from a little engineering knowledge and some physics I learned everythign above from friends, either here or the few mechanics I know.

Skrilla... Oh Skrilla.... please feel free to help me out or correct me here, since most of what I learned above I learned from you. What would you suggest? And Joasiah what are your thoughts on Extrude Honed head?

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17.

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. Silver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads.

Waiting for from RRE: Front Lower Tie Bar, SS Clutch Line.

WOW! Nice Reply!

I dont really have a budget. I have $1,200 of spending money each month.

Im so proud of myself, I changed my battery out today, all by myself! Woohooo!

I think what I am going to do is get the rest of the bolt ons first. Your idea is right. All I have is a K&N filter, arospeed muffler, and pacesetter headers that arent even installed yet.

So this month, I will do my timing belt (im at 69k!!!), underdrive pulley, 55mm throttle body, install my header, and AEM cold air intake. What do you think i'll be pulling? Holding off on the porting for now.

-Nick

if you're going for street performance, i wouldn't do the tranny first, since that will mostly help your ET, just my 2 pennies

javi d
vroom n' boom

http://photomail.photoworks.com/scripts/download2.dll?getimage?2~1~XM8dy.CrNdhfZjZdkSc3ZbmDIu68iciJdv3vUcQb2E3wHLipWHr.6ZqsebehZu9z

You have $1200 to spend on your car each month (or the possibility of spending that amount)!!! Damn it'd take me like 4 months to come up with $1200 to spend if not longer.

Anyway, your idea sounds good. You'll need the typical bolt ons if you're going to stay NA. That should be a good start. With an auto after that stuff you'll notice better pick up and a little bit better top end. UDP will give you the best though for your money but every little bit helps.


-Avenger
99 Eclipse RS out of the shop!! :)

Nice bidget to work with each month!

Get an AFX Underdrive NOW!!! before you do the timing belt. They can install it when they do the timing belt, since the crank pulley has to come off why not just put on the underdrive pulley now. They should even charge you any extra. This really is the best bang for the buck. $160 dollars for about 10-12 hp at the wheels. One of the best mods I've installed to date.

If you are curious my head will be adone after I have:
AFX UDP
55mm TB
Injen Cold Air Intake
Ported/Polished Intake Manifold
BroSpeed Header 4-2-1 Ceramic Coated
APEXi S-AFC
EGT and A/F gauges to tune properly
Fuel Pump Mod
GS-T Muffler
Possibly an Ignition Amp (before of after head I don't know yet, most likely after)

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17.

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. Silver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads.

Waiting for from RRE: Front Lower Tie Bar, SS Clutch Line.

Yep, I am buying the udp as soon as I get paid. I'm getting it (with bando belts of course) for $155, shipped. Good deal, no?

...and so you want headwork info. Michael_97RS listed a lot, but here you go:

-1st I would say check you shopping sources for DEALS. I frequently go to http://www.DSMtrader.com http://www.ThePartsTrader.com and http://www.GroupBuyCenter.com.

-Apex-i S-AFC. A must for your fuel control. Running a lot of headwork will become a waste if your PCM is overcompensating for the extra air you're pushing by adding too much fuel. I'm leaned out 4% across the board and are leaning more everyday. I'm totally amature when it comes to combustion chamber work so all I did was smooth the chamber bowls(this lowers static compression as well)

-Consider some kind of timing controller. I haven't messes with mine much but I have an MSD DIS-4. It is really for 6-8 cylinders but can work with 4 cylinders. I bought it off thepartstrader for $250 shipped. The DIS-2 Will work fine. I would much rather use the Apex-i ITC for serious Timing control but only retards or advances by 3 degrees.

-YES Mill your Cylinder Head. My head sports a .022" Copper HeadGasket and .07" mill. My Static compression is about 12:1 but my cams grind has brought it down (known as Dynamic or TRUE Compression)

-Camshafts (or your regrinded for 75-200 and brand new for ~$500). I don't know what the deal is with Crane but I talked to Brian at Crower who is working on new billets and will be available in about 2-4 months. I have some aggressive regrinds and are prolly equivalent(sp?) to some weak drag cams. Below 3000rpms I'm kinda weak. Anything after that and I'm a beast (for being all motor that is).

-Ported intake and exhaust Valve chambers. I did this myself and wasn't too much trouble. This is also done with your valve job. for me they just cut valve bowls and I cleaned up the rest.

-5 angle valve job intake and exhaust($200)

-new spec roller arms and hydraulic lifters($300 & for stock parts) for higher rpm and better revvs

-Cam spockets(Gears) will be needed for you milled cylinder head, especially if you milled a lot. Like I said I milled .07" from mine so it is pretty dramatic. The timing belt was off almost a tooth, which is fine but you will need the gears to play around with for timing corrections. I have AEM but are currently using some OBX grinded gears (they were cheap - check group buy center addy listed above).

-AFX UDP. 'Nuff said

-Headers. With any real cylinder head internal mods you will be bottlenecked by 3 things. The intake and exhaust manny and camshafts. Get some decent headers, I use Hotshot's early design which I bought off a memeber here for $100

-Ported intake Manifold. I've ported several myself now using my Dremel and Die Grinder, So I'm confident with my work.

-Ported TB or yours ported for $100 from http://www.Howellautomotive.com

-Cold Air Intake AKA CAI

-lastly everything portmatched (or gasket matched)

-The extra cylinder head you were speaking of was prolly for 30K miles not 3K. They would charge you an arm and leg for 3K(prolly wouldn't even carry it 'cause it's so low) I can get them for about 250 to 400 depending on the condition. I can get blocks for the same price. I just got another spair short block for 150

Hope that helps or just drop me some mail for other questions.

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology: The Only Replacement for Displacement"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

Once again Skrilla, the King of NA and head work.

I know we talked abou it last night but the web address for your 4 channel EGT is http://www.westach.com go order a free catalog, I got mine in less than a week.

Speaking of timing controllers what do you think about the Crane Hi-6 Ignition with timing controller. I know Howell likes them, what do you think?


"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17.

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. Silver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads.

Waiting for from RRE: Front Lower Tie Bar, SS Clutch Line.

...it doesn't really matter to me. I would've bought either depending on who was cheaper. Crane certainly does good work but their customer service skills need some attention. Howell supports them because they support him as well BUT that ignition controller is very good and newer (I believe). Anyway hopefully Crower will be more satisfying with their camshafts, but they better jump on the ball.

-oh yeah 1 more thing - THANX - for the Westach EGT info, I'm all over it.

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology: The Only Replacement for Displacement"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

Jesus ... I mean Skrilla,

Yet another nice reply. After receiving all of this great knowledge, I have decided NOT to do the head work. I think I definately need to get the basic set up first. I only have a muffler and intake filter. I have header, but they arent installed (pacesetter)

You say you can port intake manifold yourself? Will this mod alone add hp? Live int he FL area?

-Nick

yeah the $155 from PTuning is the best price avail. with our 5%.

Before you port the Manifold I would suggest a 55mm (bored) Throttle body. If you don't do this I think the manifold with outflow the TB. BUt Summit sells a $40 kit with all the bits you need to port and polish yourself. A flex head and a dremel are all that is needed to complete the set. A few guys here have done it if you want tips.

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17.

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. Silver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads.

Waiting for from RRE: Front Lower Tie Bar, SS Clutch Line.

Nevermind I just remembered and looked back, you are going to put on your 55mm TB, ignore me.

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17.

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. Silver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads.

Waiting for from RRE: Front Lower Tie Bar, SS Clutch Line.

I wanna find someone in the FL area that can do my intake manifold... any takers?

...I feel the headwork is kinda involved. I can assemble the whole head myself but a local shop over here will grind the chamber and reassemble my head for 150. In that installation they also check valve clearances and their seats to make sure your cams have proper lift and duration with your old valves.

I also suggect you do some basics, like INSTALLING THE HEADERS. CAI(if you're staying NA) or using the HKS super filter(like $150) at the end of the stock black tuning(good upgrade in itself - like 5 peakHP) the AFX UDP the AFC and EGT after all is installed.

Ya I can port your intake manifold. Takes me about 4 hours. I can also gasket match it for you. In terms of HP from porting the manifold - NO extra power, BUT torque comes on sooner(lower revs) and HP stays until redline. So I thought is worth it. After the porting you could even send it to be extrude honed. They can bench test and make sure you're flowing the same amount of CFM's through each intake runner.

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology: The Only Replacement for Displacement"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

Here's the prices for the head work I got done at RRE:

$325 includes a 3 andgle valve job on the exhaust, 5 angle valve job on the intake, AND milling the head however much you want, and also hot soaking it etc to treat it.

Porting is either $200, $400, or $600 depending on how much you want ported. I got the $200 and would recommend either the $200 or $400 for daily driving. I'll try to get more info for you later...

eclipse804@hotmail.com
http://www.importvenom.com
Import Venom

I did my own porting on my intake manifold and throttle body and it doesn't take too much time. You can do it all in a day if you really have to. Where in Florida are you? The porting was worth it in my opinion. Like Skrilla said, The torque comes on sooner and the HP is there all the way through the redline. Where is that Damn AFX computer so I can go to 8000+ rpms!!!



KYB AGX Struts
Neuspeed Sport Springs
5 Strut Bars (2 F/U, F/L, R/U, R/L)
Sprint Front Camber Kit
$15 Rear Camber Kit
Ported Intake Manifold
Ported Throttle Body
Custom 2 1/4 inch exhaust
Empty Catalytic Convertor
225/50/16inch Wheels and Tires

BTW, just to clarify, the prices I was talking about it for porting the head of the car, not the intake manifold or throttle bold (those are cheaper to port).

eclipse804@hotmail.com
http://www.importvenom.com
Import Venom

... I wish they would hurry up and release it too.

2GNT Niclipse: If you lived near me or want to ship it I could do it for. Drop me or fast some mail

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology: The Only Replacement for Displacement"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"