I was at the track, tuning MS, and i kept back firing under boost at a certain point.. And it killed the engine. I coasted to a safe spot. I tired to re-start the car , and it would not start. I was cranking (i can see i was at 200-400) rpm. I had fuel pressure, and oil pressure. It wouldnt start, just kept cranking
I waited about 10 min, tired to re-start and POP .. the loudest back fire i ever heard.. sounded like a shotgun went off next to my ear.. then about 10 mins after it finally started! i took it easy goin home, stayin out of boost. every thing seemd normal, no over heating, oil press was good, EGTs were fine, as well as AFRs.

I let her sit over night, and it was really hard to start again..

Pulled the plugs, heres a pic. they dont look bad?



Did a compression check

DOHC
1 2 3 4
cold enigne 170 70 180 180
Added oil to cyl 170 70 180 180
Warm eninge 180 100 180 180


Somethings up,

I let car idle, pulled out the dip stick. oil dropplets are kind of spurting.shooting out. Ive also been having an issue where oil is misting from the Valve cover under boost.. even tho ive replaced the VC gasket several times. sees theres pressure in the crank case.. and now with the dipstick check, seems theres pressure even at idle.
you can see in the back driver side area where oil has been pooling/misting from.


Doesn't appear to be any oil in coolant, and i cont smell or see coolant/fuel in the oil.
I have a catch can setup, and it does catch oil, but not huge amounts.


Ideas on what it could be? or any other ways to trouble shoot the issue?

Im thinking rings on cyl 2..


Vinola pistons, Total seal rings, running 10-12 Psi. Head is a slow boy st 2, brand new, minus the miles ive put on it (500?) 1mm OS valves, crower 2 cams with 2.7 rockers/lifters bkr6e gapped at .34

With those wet numbers, its unlikely to be a ring issue. My guess is you lost a valve on cylinder 2. Pull the head and see what you can see, or try a leakdown test to verify where you're losing compression.

interesting. How does one do a leak down test? i asked a local around here and he said i need special gauges etc.. which i didnt really think was right... since its pretty common advice on here.. lol

Technically, you do... But you can do a quick and dirty leakdown without them. With no leakdown gauge you can't see the % of leakdown, but you can still see where you're losing air.

I'm on a phone right now, so typing a whole list of instructions is a bit cumbersome. I would recommend you google it.

ok, ill look around. ive been searching on here.. seems like everyone does it wrong/confuses it with a wet comp test lol


I did get (from one of your posts) what the results may tell me..

1. Bubbles in radiator= HG
2. Air out of throttle body=leaking intake valves
3. Air out of exhaust=exhaust valves
4. air out of dipstick tube=Rings
To identify problem from results of loss of air on Leakdown test

looks like i just pressurize the cyl thru the sparkplug hole while at TDC for that cyliner? I figure i can use my compression tester, hooked up to a "T" one end to comp tester (plugged into sparkplug hole) other to the compression gauge , the other to the air source with a shut off. Ideally it should compress the cylinder. should i remove the shrader from the compression tester gauge? or should it be fine since it will always be under pressure?

Originally posted by streetlightning
should i remove the shrader from the compression tester gauge?

Yup, you got the idea. Basically fill the cylinder with air and see where its leaking from.

When you did the wet test, what you are doing is using the oil for a seal on the rings. If there were like a hole in the piston (which would be 0 comp anyway), you would not get a change in comp numbers because the oil can't fill the hole. Likewise, if you have a burnt or dropped valve, the oil can't seal that. If the rings were bad, you would generally get a postitive change in comp numbers.

i did 3 comp tests, a cold (dry) in which the comp was like 70. Then i added some oil (1/2 a cap full ) and i got about 90-100. then i got the car started, let it idle and warm up. i then performed another comp test, and it was approx the same, around 100

So i built a crude leak tester. Took off the manifolds and pressurized cyl 2@ TDC.
Air seems to be leaking from the valves on the intake side. I had shop towels stuffed in each hole to keep contaminates out, and when i pressurized, it blew them out! Its deff leaking from the intake side. I also tried cyl 3, which is also at TDC at this time. I dont hear leaks.

Question tho: i put 90 psi in , and shut the supply, and air leaks down quickly. I can see it leak down quick on the gauge, but it does it in a way where i can tell there is resistance,but it certainly doesn't stay in there. in cyl 2 the psi leaks down like the others (with resistance) UNTIL about 30 psi then it leaks out like there was no resistance, like one opened the chamber... Hope im making sense.

At no time did i see any bubble in coolant. I can feel a very very very slight breeze coming out of the Oil cap (i had it off) but its very very slight... I dont feel anyhting coming out of dipstick or the exhaust side.

Here is a pic of cyl 2 intkae valves



I also noticed while taking the IM off, the gasket interfacing with the IM, had oil saturation on the bottom of the gasket on cyl 2.

And on the gaskt side interfacing with head, there seemd to be oil saturation on the bottom of the gasket for all cylinders

Interfacing with engine


Interfacing with IM


anything else i should try/investigate before i pull the enigne/head?

Bullet you mentioned dropped valve.. what does that exactly mean, it sounds like the problem i may be having, ie its not sealing..

Once i get the head off, what will i be looking for?

I am not 100% because the picture can be misleading, but to me, it looks as though the valve on the right is hung open about a 1/16 of an inch... Though that could just be a optical illusion or alittle bit of carbon/oil build up that makes it look that way. As for the air comming out of the intake when #2 is on TDC, I would say a hung valve. When you had #2 on TDC, did you try and wiggle the rockers to see if they were able to move the slightest? If I am remembering correctly they should have just alittle movement, if one does and one doesnt, I would say the hung valve is probably due to a froze lash adjuster that is keeping preasure on the valve ever so slightly. How long has this motor been running anyway, you said something about 500 miles. Because those valves look oiled up almost like the motor has been alive for 50,000 miles, there is quite a bit of oil buildup on the valves. You said you have a catch can, does it in any way go back to the intake manifold? For the ammount of burnt oil on the valves, the oil found on the intake gasket and the lack of compression in #2, I would be inclined to say that the rings are gone in #2.

everything has about 500 miles on it. I mean EVERYTHINGS.

the rockers and lashes are the only thing used. they came out of a 2.7 for better oiling.

Heres how my pvc system is setup

big port on VC > PCVALVE > catch can (boomba) > Check valve (AIR FLOW --->) to TB port..

The little drive side VC port goes to the intake of turbo, so it never pressurized.

Again I am not 100% because I am not rite there to witness and diagnose a few things, but it sounds like you have excessive blow-by and that vapor/oil is returning back to the intake tract via the PCV/catchcan, and that blowby could only be related to piston rings. I am mainly focusing on the rings as being the problem, because you have excessive oil buildup in such a short period of time, that could be the reason for the compression loss, or it could indeed be a hung valve, but a hung valve wouldnt create the oil buildup on the valves and the oil on the intake gasket... So unless your valve stem seals are SHOT, which wouldnt explain the compression loss, there is pretty much one main problem that explains all that you see. Anyone feel free to correct me... I am just going on info given and the multiple signs.. But to me sir... I say you either need "new" rings "again", OR, piston #2, all of the compression and oil rings have all aligned and are allowing for the blowby.

Well heres some weird leaf spring juice So i drained the oil and coolant. then ran the leak down again.. this time ALL cylinders, on both strokes cycles held psi! i started at 67 Psi, and 5 min later it blead to 1-2 psi to 65 Psi.. i did this for all cyls all at tdc on each cycle.. and all of them loose 1-2 Psi over the 5 min period.. WTF! this seems normal!? I did TRY and wiggle the rocker a little, but they really didnt budge at all, so im not sure WTF is going on..

my compression is 9.1:1 i i didnt choose vinola, that was from terry whom originally built the bottom end. He built it, then didnt do anything with it, and i took it over and went from there.

Any other ideas on what to test before i pull her out?

Just pull the head already.

will do. just wannted to make sure i had a good grasp on what is wrong and what needs to be fixed.

Took her a part.

I dont see any red flags. Lots of carbon build up on pistons and intake valves, and cros hatch looks good as well.. should the intake valves be that dirty?

The springs and retainers are stock... when i purchased the head, i was told they were crane etc.. they deff look stock.. Idk if thats really 100% the problem, but at the end of the day, since im running Crower stg 2 (that require upgraded springs) im going to purchase them and put them in.. Im hoping that fixes the issue. Im hoping the machine shop can take the head as is now and figure out if thats the case of if there's another issue.

If you didnt take anything to a machine shop......Get a hold of me and i will tell you exactly what you did and how to get it back up and running. I dont feel like posting it here where people such as those above can parrot(incorrectly) what they have read on the internet. Chasing oil blowby on a new motor is a perfect example of a lack of experience.

I dont check my PM's here so send me an email terrence.godfrey@sbcglobal.net

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
If you didnt take anything to a machine shop......Get a hold of me and i will tell you exactly what you did and how to get it back up and running. I dont feel like posting it here where people such as those above can parrot(incorrectly) what they have read on the internet. Chasing oil blowby on a new motor is a perfect example of a lack of experience. I dont check my PM's here so send me an email terrence.godfrey@sbcglobal.net

First off, no one here is "parroting" anything! Second, please do share, seeing as how you seem to act like the "KNOWER OF ALL"! Share so the rest of us can learn from your ever knowing knowledge! We are all here to help one another... That is why this is a forum, so we can ask questions and get answers AND learn from others! There is no need to bash or talk trash about others who are only trying to help a fellow 2gnt-er! I guess this is to be expected, there is always that "know it all" bad apple. There is no "lack of experience" here, I was trying to help with the information that was given and go on past experiences, if that is a problem for you, then either reply with some helpfull advice correcting the wrong information... just like I said... or just ignore the posts and keep your comments to yourself.

Originally posted by Progress

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon If you didnt take anything to a machine shop......Get a hold of me and i will tell you exactly what you did and how to get it back up and running. I dont feel like posting it here where people such as those above can parrot(incorrectly) what they have read on the internet. Chasing oil blowby on a new motor is a perfect example of a lack of experience. I dont check my PM's here so send me an email terrence.godfrey@sbcglobal.net

First off, no one here is "parroting" anything! Second, please do share, seeing as how you seem to act like the "KNOWER OF ALL"! Share so the rest of us can learn from your ever knowing knowledge! We are all here to help one another... That is why this is a forum, so we can ask questions and get answers AND learn from others! There is no need to bash or talk trash about others who are only trying to help a fellow 2gnt-er! I guess this is to be expected, there is always that "know it all" bad apple. There is no "lack of experience" here, I was trying to help with the information that was given and go on past experiences, if that is a problem for you, then either reply with some helpfull advice correcting the wrong information... just like I said... or just ignore the posts and keep your comments to yourself.

I would suggest you revise you reply to Terry, he has helped damn near ALL of us, don't rag on him, simply because his post was directed to AVOID REPLIES, as piss poor & disrespectful such as your own.

Please, Calm the fuck down.

Now he was simply trying to help the OP, who he obviously has something else going with. He's not trying to post it everywhere so the whole world can awe in shock & terror. If he parades it around here, who knows, someone takes a post the wrong way & starts trash talking for no reason. Terry would like to AVOID this, as would the rest of us.

Thanks much, Jeff.

Results are in. It wasnt a head issue, OR a ring issue, as everything is in tact. It was a washing the cyl walls Issue ( Terry called it! surprise surprise ; )). MS apparently couldn't pull the fuel fast enough. The rod bearing were not spun, but had issues. The shop said they dd not have any signs of starvation, but needed replacing as in certain spots they wer being flattened ( i guess). The shop told me that's most likely from detonation. Is that accurate? The crank journals check out, and new bearing are in order.

Im calling vinola today to inquire about rings. Ill post some pics up of the bearings once i get them.

What do you mean the MS could not pull fuel fast enough? It is more than likely it was a problem with your tune or msq settings.

When i was auto tuning, When i was back firing in the Upper PSI/RPM ranges, i could hear/ feel the missfire, while seeing that the auto tune was pulling fuel in that region. Im thinking thats when i blew spark out, engine died, and would not start again b/c i lost compression ( b/c i washed my walls with fuel). So yes, my MSQ was too rich in that area. I was fighting a missfire, and it registered as lean in the Log, and on the wide band, but that may be a error reading, a it may have been to rich to read, or it was reading the spark being blowin out. At the time, i thought, Lean, i need to add fuel in this area, perhaps that's why is missing.. but it was probably blowing out spark? The fuel i added in those bins was too much for ms to pull at one time since it does it on an averaging / cell count/hit basis. so that 1 run, with exposure to those cells wasn't long enough to pull all the fuel i mistakenly added.

The VE analyze live only sends changes to the processor every 10 seconds if I recall, and that is if you have it set to autoupdate too. Definitely change cell resistance if the bins are really far off.

Also a misfire will almost always show lean as the sensor sees the unused oxygen.

I guess the real question is where is the miss coming from. I believe it was the spark plugs i was using, the ones pictured, gapped to .34. I should have been using the 7es gapped to .28. Given that, im thinking i would not be blowing out spark, is that a safe assumption?
The machine shop also mentioned detonation (i have yet to research exactly what this is/how its caused/what reduces it), but could blowing out spark cause detonation? Im thinking its more of a spark timing event.

Read this thru my searching:
http://www.misterfixit.com/deton.htm

""Read" your spark plugs. The wrong heat range plug can cause detonation as well as preignition. If the insulators around the electrodes on your plugs appear yellowish or blistered, they may be too hot for the application. Try the next heat range colder spark plug. Copper core spark plugs generally have a broader heat range than ordinary plugs, which lessens the danger of detonation." This could be some of my issue im thinking..

Misfire and detonation are two different occurrences. Also, you mean to say .028 or .034, there is no way you are running over a 1/4" of spark plug gap on that coil. Running high boost necessitates lower plug gap, unless you have some monster coil output. Try going as low as .018 and working your way up the next on the dyno.

Yes, i forgot the "0", my bad! good catch. i have an MSD coil, so nothing special. Ill try going lower on gap with my 7e's. i typically dont dyno (yet). Once its back together, and up (prolly next spring as we have a seaon called winter here lol) im going to have ASP help me fine tune the car on street and on the Dyno.