Cold starts, like in the morning, she fires right up, idles just fine.
Hot starts, like i get back into the car after 5 mins, she fires right up, idles just fine.
Warm starts... diff story...

If the car sits after being driven for say, an hour or so, and I get back in and try to start it, it'll turn over and over and overrrrr then it turns over faster and faster till it finally starts. I have to give it a quick tap on the gas to get the RPMs up and then she idle's just fine. Not a huge issue, but I know my starter is crying for help everyday and its not supposed to be doing this. It's been doing this for a while now and it didnt use to be like this

What would be the sequence of steps to diagnosing this wierd issue? Ignition?

I have, damn, i dont even remember the spark wires i have. lol. aftermarket.
bkr7e's gapped at .025
stock coil

I guess I can start by just trying a different set of plugs/wires for testing. At first I figured it might be the fuel pump but i get plenty of pressure at prime. This sorta baffles me. Here's a vid of what happens. Sometimes its a little worse and takes a few more turnovers (apple ones):

http://s382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/eclipse8129/?action=view¤t=2010-10-26_14-14-35_155.mp4

What EMS are you running on?

If aftermarket/tunable your problem may lie in your priming pulse widths and cranking pulse widths for that particular spot in the table for coolant/engine temperature.

That is weird!

redacted

Originally posted by CODE4
What EMS are you running on? If aftermarket/tunable your problem may lie in your priming pulse widths and cranking pulse widths for that particular spot in the table for coolant/engine temperature.

i'm running on stock ECU, stock ignition, stock fuel... lol. i guess i could try a spare ecu :shrug oh and by the way, that vid is from letting it sit about 45 mins after driving. any other ideas? i guess i should start simple...?

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC

Originally posted by CODE4 What EMS are you running on? If aftermarket/tunable your problem may lie in your priming pulse widths and cranking pulse widths for that particular spot in the table for coolant/engine temperature.

i'm running on stock ECU, stock ignition, stock fuel... lol. i guess i could try a spare ecu :shrug oh and by the way, that vid is from letting it sit about 45 mins after driving. any other ideas? i guess i should start simple...?

It isnt the ECU. The ECU I have been driving on for a year is your old one. I do not have this issue. ECU in your car is Mandys original, and it never did this either.

Your car has been doing this for way longer than a year. In fact, I think we swapped ECUs because of this.

Check ect sensors. When it won't start, ohm it and compare to oem spec.

What's an ect sensor(s)? By the way, figured i'd post what happened this morning: http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/eclipse8129/2010-10-27_07-53-50_504.mp4

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC
What's an ect sensor(s)?

Ect= engine coolant temperature sensor

There is two of them, both located on the filler neck under the rad cap.
One is for your dash gauge. One is for the ecu, willing to bet the ecu one is bad.

Sorry, I've replaced that sensor during the time of diagnosing another issue. It was still starting like this after replacing it w/ a new one. I even checked continuity to/from the sensor/ECU, so I really doubt its that. Thanks for that idea though

Alrighty, iac working?

I have a modern performance manual IAC, but just to let u know, I've only had it for about 2 or so months. This starting issue is much older than that. As soon as I get home, im just gonna put on OEM spark wires... see what happens... thanks for ur help by the way

Alright. I honestly doubt wires but hey man I've seen crazier. I think I know the answer but do you have an egr?

egr is blocked off

Damnit haha well this is challenging.


Ohm coil when it happens again.
Maybe excessive heat is screwing it up but that would incline me to think that it would miss while driving also.

If you play with the throttle slightly will it fire up? I mean maybe closed to 1/4?

With the modern tb how do you have the tps reading a closed throttle on a stock ECM? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a set screw opening the throttle plate slightly? Perhaps it's reading too much throttle input?

I dont have a MP TB....Currently, i have a 57mm stock overbore TB. Before that, it was a completely stock TB. I actually have been running the 57mm one for about 2 months now, same issue w/ both TBs. Loll.. screwy isn't it... more like annoying is the right word to use

To answer ur other question, yes, I have to tap the throttle quickly to get it idle from about 200 rpm to normal. Look at the first vid and notice that I tap it

And why r u the only one providing assistance? I know ppl r reading this... cmon

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC
I have a modern performance manual IAC

If you could enlighten me please. Because I think it has something to do with the ecus mapping to start when warm. As far as it's not seeing something correctly. Or improper calculations of fuel delivery/ spark advanced.

Do you have a wideband a/f gauge on it?

Also they are all busy enjoying and driving their cars. You and I are curse with them not running. Atleast you can also drive yours though :/

Oh well. I'm buying an evo9 in the next 6 months. =D

Could be as simple as the starter/starter solenoid going bad

Its not a starter solinoid....read the thread before you post.


Mikey, whenit does this try cracking the throttle plates or even pulling the vac line off the intake that goers to the booster and see if that helpss......If it does i will explain at that point.

Yo Terry it's probably the wrong crank sensor=D

Of course I'm kidding. Haha

of its def the wrong size crank sensor or maybe the map sensor is too short mikey.....Map should be .335 inches long and your may only be .334........def kmart, kmart, def kmart.

Kidding Mike do not measure yourt maps or crank sensor.

Ahahah only thing I have to say about that is the srt-4 neon ckp sensor is .25" shorter than ours. I tried it out of desperation and a buddy had it on the shelf. Hahaha.


My map sensor is onboard ms :( how do I measure it?

thanks T. i'll try that this weekend and revive this thread w/ results afterwards

tried it today when i got back into my car at work today. your idea helped.

I tried starting, and after it would turn over a couple times, i knew it was "doing it". i put the pedal to the floor and it started after about 2 turnovers. it stuttered at low RPMs for a quick 1/2 second, then as soon as it reved up, I let go of the pedal, then it idled normally. I shoulda gotten a vid of it.

I'll try it again tomorrow when the engines warm just to see if your advice works again.

is this what you expected T?

You know, this the EXACT same thing my car's doing, with one added bit of goodness. If I push it to 5 grand before my car warms up for a few, my car will act like it's hit a rev limiter. After I release the gas and hit it again, it's fine. I just figured it was because my car's a '95.

That isnt exactly what i wanted you to do but it accomplishes the same thing i think. I wanted you crack the plates not push the pedal to the floor.

When you push the pedal all the way to the floor the ECU cuts off injector pulse.

Either way that is the response i was looking for. try it again to confirm and I will come up with a plan of troubleshooting for you.

Give me the details on the setup:
Injector size:
iac config:
ignition setup:

Terry

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
Give me the details on the setup: Injector size: iac config: ignition setup: Terry

I know exactly what you were talking about.

I had the pedal to the floor while starting it today. It hiccupped after a couple turnovers and as soon as i thought it was gonna start, i stopped turning the key. It didn't fire up. So i turned the key again with the pedal to the floor, and i swear, it must have turned over 25 or more times. When on the 25th or so turnover, i let go of the pedal somewhat (maybe 1/2 way) and it fired up. rather quickly might I add.

I will keep trying to find out if having it half way or all the way to the floor makes a difference this weekend. FYI, the vac nipple coming off the front of the TB is capped.

Injector size: stock (w/ portfueler)
IAC: manual (1050 rpm idle)
Ignition: accel wires, stock coil, bkr7e (gap: .025)

Something to look at next time your messing with it.......

Check the N/A portion of the portfueler map. Make sure its not adding fuel during the cranking RPM. I know the transition period difficult to tune so make sure you dont have all 8 injectors firing during cranking.

An easy way to check it would be to just unplug the secondary injectors and try starting when warm.

Warm starts are probably the more sensitive starting conditions in terms of pulsewidth. Cold starts and hot starts are more forgiving to mixture.

Terry

acknowledged. I will report back.

ASD Relay maybe?

well, the PF injectors are fine. I can't get a screen shot on here because the laptop i use to connect to the module is an old thinkpad.

I drove w/ them disconnected for a couple days, no change. I looked at the calibration and they don't open up until .5psi (just above atmospheric). all values below .5psi are zero'd out.

do a pressure check on the fuel line and verify the factory injectors are not leaking.

tested at 30 and 45 psi. both pressures hold steady. no drop offs.

so, yea, late update. havent messed w/ it too much but after testing each fuel rail w/ injectors independantly, numerous sensors, and even a new walbro FP, i've decided to hand off the car to my good buddies at DDMWorks here locally. they fixed my notorious rich fuel issue so I have complete confidence they can diagnose and fix this.

i look forward to hearing what they come up with.

update: shop had it for two months, gave me the "we've been busy" runaround and got tired of waiting. Eventually the owner admitted behind my back to someone that they weren't familiar with the car, hence avoiding working on it. DDM Works in Greenville SC, you suck ass, chapter 11 awaits you.

So, its back in my possession and back to square one (lost). once i figure out the culprit and share the solution, i sure hope its worth all this in helping the other 2gnters that may have had this same issue

How about a compression test?

My theory(though it may be wrong and useless)

Since warm starts are touchy, the fuel has to be spot on. On cold starts the startup enrichment aids a possible weak engine with an abundance of fuel. On a hot engine, combustion chamber temps and tighter piston fit aids a possible weak engine. But warm engine in theory wouldnt get any aid in these items?

Maybe I'm over-thinking but hey if you have a chance what are the numbers?

you'll never guess what it was... the STARTER.

apparently the starter (only a few yrs old) can only last so long under a high-heat environment. Coupled with the battery being in the rear with not the best cranking amps in the world, it didn't help any. Replaced the starter and starts everytime now.

The old starter had enough energy to turn the motor over, but not very efficiently when warm. That's why cold starting was fine. When hotter, the starter began heat soak and even though it was being given enough turn-over power, was still sluggish.

This may be a one-time occurance of starters for 2gnts, but just thought i'd share my findings for future searchers. I plan on making a heat blanket sometime in the future to prolong the starters life, but as of now i'm happy to get this 2 yr old problem behind me.

Excellent news! Congrats on finally finding the culprit.

As for the heat situation, I suspect that it was just the starter and not the heat. I bought the race car in 2003 (of course it was a daily until a few years ago) and have the same starter in there as when I picked it up - at 92k (?)). I know that it saw a lot of heat while I daily drove it. And I didn't use heat wrap until after I installed the LTH.

But big fat congrats to you sir :cheers