ok, i have a 95 eagle talon esi atx. i have had the computer checked 3 times and no problem. i changed the crank sensor and pigtail due to corroded wire that broke off. i checked the whole harness and all the wires are good. i checked relays and those are good. we had to change the motor cuz we spun a rod bearing. same motor but from 97 avenger. car ran perfect for a year after but then comp went out and now wont start. out of options

Do you have 12v at the coil pack while cranking?

IF you dont that means the ASD is not actuating.

IF that is the case you need to check signal from the crank and cam sensor. 3 wire sensor has a ground, 9v power and a signal wire the ECU. Verify your power and ground first. If that checks out good you want to verify the signal wire continuity (wire end to end and end to ground)to the ECU to verify the wire isnt shorted or broken.

If the Coil is getting 12v while cranking then probe the ECU wires for a ground pulse.

Check to see if your getting injector pulse. Use a test light or a noid light.

post back your results.

i checked everything 2 or 3 times. i get voltages and everything when i first turn on the ignition and then nothing. but when i try to do anything as far as cranking the motor, i lose it all. as if the ecu shuts down totally. and i looked at the pin set-up for the ecu and my wires are in reverse from the diagram.

OK, lets get something straight. you asked for help. Your reply is i checked everything....was my question "did you check everything"? You havent answered my question when you reply so vaguely. If your not going to do what i have told you then dont bother asking.

1. When powered up the ECU will power the ASD then after 15 secs power the ASD down.
2. When the ECU going into cranking mode it will power the ASD up.

Your telling me when cranking you have no power to the sensors which means you have a bad ECU or power to the ECU.

check your battery terminals. my car used to do that too. in ACC mode dash lights would light up, go to start, nothing. first thing i thought when seeing this on twitter was to check the ASD. Ive had issues with that relay and the FPR. wouldnt hurt to check it again...

battery cables are fine. will crank all day as long as battery is kept charged

ok. i check all the power coming from ecu when i first turn ignition on. it continues to send power for long periods of time. even after a few minutes i can still get voltage to all my sensors. as soon as i try to start the car i lose every bit of power to the sensors and never get voltage to coil pack or injectors.the ecu is good because 3 techs looked at it the last time to verify that it was working properly. this morning i took out the harness and checked for continuity in all the wires. i found that there were ground wires that were messed up and replaced those. i looked at the pin diagram for the ecu and noticed that my factory harness is reverse wired from it. middle row is identical but outside rows are switched. pin 1 on diagram is in 41 on harness and so on.could this be the issue?

Well if three techs looked at it and ignored the fact you have no power to the sensors then I guess they are not checking it correctly.

If you never get power to the coil pack even when cranking then remove the ASD and jumper the socket. Use the schematic, i dont know wire colors off the top of my head right now. When jumpered you will have 12v to the coil and injectors at all times so dont leave the jumper in if you give up testing for the day. Your relays might be good but the harness or socket might not.

If you jumper the asd and you still dont get power to the coil then you know you hve a harness issue. Either your not getting 12v tot he asd socket or the wire coming out of the socket that goes to the Coil and injectors is broken somewhere.

Take the schematic and make sure all the 12v power wires going to the ECU are good and verify all the ground wires have a sufficient ground.

Terry

i have tried to bypass asd and fuel pump relays and still get nothing for starting. i checked for voltage coming in and its there.

k when yopu bypass the ASD do you get spark and injector pulse at that point? If you dont know, then i need that checked.

If you do then the next thing i need to know is what fuel pressure you have while cranking.

no injector pulse, no coil signal. did check signal coming from crank sensor and showing 9 volts. possible bad sensor even tho that was just replaced recently?

Ok the signal wire from the crank sensor to the ECU is showing 9v solid going to the ECU? It should be an occilating square wave (if using a graphic scope).

You sure your not checking the power wire coming from the ECU? That wire will have 9v coming from the ECU while cranking. The black wire should be ground and the last wire goes back to the ECU and is the signal wire. That wire will have a 9v pulse as you crank the motor over.

If that checks out proper then do the same to the cam sensor.

I wish i had a schematic so I could give you wire colors. If you know the colors then let me know what they are and I can tell you what you should be seeing.

Terry

i have the haynes manual and a full scematic with color coding. the yellow is constant 9 volts and i get that. the same constant goes to the cam sensor. black/green is ground and that checks good. blue/white is signal from crank and blue/red is signal from cam. i get .4 volts from cam not cranking but 9 volts from crank not cranking. i thought that the signal from both should be 5 volts not cranking

9V doesnt sound right. you should be seeing 5v from backfeed. Take and unplug the Sensor and see if your still getting 9v. then unplug the ECU and check continuity on the 9v power feed and the Crank signal wire, be sure to cross check them to rule out that they are shorted to each other.

Try cranking it and see if the voltage fluctuates.

Next, unplug the crank sensor and test the cam sensor again. A bad crank sensor can make a cam sensor appear bad and vice versa. It has to do with the inner workings of the ECU.


If the wiring to the crank sensor isnt shorted together and your seeign 9v on both wires......there is some sort of issue with the ECU. You said your using a shop in IL to test the ECU.....have you tried putting the ECU in another car or putting a different ecu in your car? Where are you located?

im in wisconsin. and i have no one with a talon or eclipse that has the same setup as me.

Well do what i said in my last post.

What year car?

1995. yea, its the odd messed up year where its hard to find parts at times. kind of hard to find the right crank sensor. ill check in the morn to see if the wires may be crossed or shorted to each other

I will bet you lunch that ECU is bad. We will see as we troubleshoot. I am only 2-4 hours south of you in IL but i dont have a good 95 ECU.

dang. id say if you had a car to swing up with and try ecu in it that would either rule out ecu or point to it

update. checked for possible shorted wire. no continuity between short ans power or feedback signal on either crank or cam. no short between power and feedback on either as well. cant crank the motor due to fact that ignition switch broke. getting new one tomorrow and can test that then.

since the supply to the sensors is 9 volts, could i supply 9 volts from a different source to test the sensors?

I am having a hard time understand what you just posted.

As for your question.....if you are getting 9v then that isnt the problem. Explain to me what you tested. Whats posted above reads funny.

i cant use the voltage from ecu cuz the ignition switch broke. so i cant get it to stay in the on position. so i used a 9 volt battery in place of the 9 volt source power to the cam sensor and didnt get any feedback voltage while cranking the motor. is it that i cant do that method of testing or is the sensor bad?

Ok so you disconnected the ECU and put 9v at the ECU connector on the 9v power wire going ot the cam sensor then cranked it?

was there a ground on the ground wire? if not then obviously you wont get a response from the cam sensor. If you did have a ground at the sensor, it must be the same ground from the battery your using to apply 9v.

I am not sure the 9v battery is large enough.

you could just bypass the ignition switch and crank it over like that.

i have 5 wires coming off my ignition switch. so i dont know which ones i would need to connect to each other in order to turn it on. i basically do a remote start under the hood with a wire from the starter to the battery. so i can crank it anytime i want. i get 9 volts when i check with the 9 volt battery from feedback wire. but when i ground the sensor and have it sup0plied with the 9 volt battery so it a closed loop, i dont get any voltage from the feedback wire

used same method on crank sensor and got fluctuation from feedback wire. just have to put sensor back in car and try while cranking to see if i get the accurate voltage. may have bad cam sensor or pigtail or both

As long as you are testing correctly then yes the cam sensor does appear bad.

Lets get this perfectly clear.

1. ECU unplugged
2. Power, ground, signal feedback wires identified
3. Ground wire and 9v power wire connected to 9v battery
4. Signal wire connected to positive lead of DVOM
5. Neg lead of DVOM connected to neg post of 9v battery

correct?

If that is correct and i suspect it is, then your cam sensor should have fluctuating voltage. since your not getting it then either bad sensor or cam magnet is not rotating with cam.

Terry

i took the cam sensor off the motor to see if any metal had gotten in the area. and i cranked the motor and the cam magnet turns with the cam that i can tell

Well your looking at a bad sensor or bad pigtail. Wiggle the pigtail wiring and see if anything changes.

Buying a new Cam sensor will require a new pigtail if you have the old chrysler plug. in 97 most of all the Chrysler plug style sensors were changed to mitsu style plugs.

Fix your ignition first. try starting the car with the cam sensor unplugged. Sometimes, just sometimes and its rare, the car will start and run without a cam sensor. If yours wont, it wont prove anything but if it will, then you confirmed a good ECU.

Only way to find the chrysler style cam sensor would be to hunt a junkyard or find someone who has a spare. I only have spare mitsu style sensors.

Terry

i can get oe parts from a few of the parts store around me. and there are time when i had the ignition on that when i would move the pigtail for cam sensor and i would hear the relay click over

then go after the pigtail first.

Take the pins out and tighten then ever so slightly and reassemble. If you dont have the tools to disassemble the connector itself then you will have to replace it.

Terry

just curious. since the crank and cam are supposed to put same signal at same time to ecu, what would happen if i were to use just one of the sensors and split it to both pins on ecu?

Cam sensor reads 1/2 the triggers as the crank.

thats right i forgot about the 2:1 ratio

update. new ignition switch in. tightened cam pigtail terminals. onow i get the fluctuation for cam sensor feedback voltage and within range.but still get 9 volts from crank sensor feedback

Originally posted by juggalo4lyfe
just curious. since the crank and cam are supposed to put same signal at same time to ecu, what would happen if i were to use just one of the sensors and split it to both pins on ecu?

It's not the same signal.

CAS

CMP

got that. i now get the proper voltage fluctuation from cam sensor but i still get 9 volts non fluctuating from crank sensor. i have a feeling that the wires are in the wrong position. i went by illustration in the book but its different from schematic

got a little farther. now i get proper voltages everywhere. but no fluctuation for crank sensor

You probably have the pigtail on the crank sensor wired incorrectly.

i just checked the wires. before i changed the terminals, i was getting the 9 volts on the signal wire. now im getting the proper voltage all around

Ok so out of no where you are now betting the fluctuating voltage from the cam and crank sensor but no spark or Fuel injector pulse?

Find another ECU

im getting fluctuation from cam but not from crank. so im leaning towards a bad crank sensor. wires when i first did it were like this: power in signal position, signal in ground position, ground in power position. i fixed this to be according to schematic so the wires were correct, and now i get proper non cranking readings. but when i crank the motor, ithe voltage does not fluctuate from the crank sensor signal feedback

make sure the connector pins are tight then suspect a bad sensor.

When i say make sure they are tight i am not referring to making sure they wont fall out of the connector. I am saying remove them fromt he connector and make sure they are tight on the pin in the sensor then re-insert them in the harness plug housing.

another problem i have is that the cel light doesnt come on at all when i turn the ignition on

That's a sign of a bad ECU.

i know. but the company told me to try changing the crank sensor and if that doesnt fix the problem, then send the ecu to them again. which would be the 4th time. but its lifetime warranty so i dont pay for the work each time

any clue on if there is a specific clearance for crank sensor and reluctor wheel?

no there isnt a spec and there isnt a reporting of sensors too far from the crank either.

i would look for another 95 ECU. Either way having a good spare is important because 95 are more prone to failure than the 96+

i was intending on moving the ecu to inside the car instead of under the hood which would help it. i found that the sensor is about 1/16 to 1/8 inch from the crank. i was told that if it is too far away it wont pick up the crank and therefore wont send signal. and found that there was garbage that may be causing it to not get close enough to allow magnet to read the crank

ok. update. the crank sensor we have is 1 1/2 inch and the one for the car is supposed to be 1 3/4 inch. so there is too much distance from the crank to get a reading. this should be the problem we are having. i hope nothing else is wrong.also found a 4g63 turbo motor, block and crank(6 bolt) for 300 bucks. gonna get that once we have the money

4g63 is useless. you cant troubleshoot a no start on your opwn and you think your going to swap motors.....Oh here we go.

well i have a place in my town that can build and install the motor for me. and setup the stand-alone for it and have it running when i pick it up

Good luck with your crank sensor issue. I have just heard enough of your stupidity.

FWIW the sensors i have that are off my own running cars are 1.5" long.

then if you think im being stupid on this then come up and get the car running on no cash. with a sensor thats 1.5" which is the wrong length. or what im guessing is the wrong length cuz i took a measurement of from the crank to the block mounting surface and its 1/8 inch too short. so if that is not far enough to not throw the signal then i have no clue. i know cars quite a bit but this one is throwing a loop at me. i can send the ecu to the place to have that checked and if its fine then its gotta be the sensor. i talked to a person that works on the 420a motors a lot and he said that if the sensor isnt close enough then it wont give the signal. and the 95 talon has a different length thats needed from some of the other years with the same sensor

Sorry its the same sensor....your going to have to search for another BS excuse.

I have 2 running 420A and one totalled right now. 2 spare sensors that were in my built car and they are both 1.5" long and were running driving more than 50k miles.

Why in gods green earht would I do anything for someone like you for nothing. THis is throwing a loop at you? this is a fundamental troubleshooting issues. If you friend knows so much, then posting here should never have been done and you should have had all this testing in the first 20 minutes of the problem.

I suddenly appreciate Mikey more.

they have 2 different length sensors 1 thats 1.5" and 1 thats 1.75" advanced, who has had exact parts for my car has the one thats 1.75". and nobody else has the sensor for my car that i need. they all have the one which is supposed to mount to the oil pump.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/1995-Eagle-Talon/Crankshaft-Position-Sensor/_/N-j1gxjZ8znbj the one that dont fit my car. http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Crankshaft-Sensor-BWD_18481586-P_762_R|GRPSENSAMS_1069482377___ the proper one for my car.

When I click the first link, and tell it 2.0 Litre 'Y' engine, It shows me a 4g63 crank sensor. That, of course, won't work at all. I usually set my vehicle as a 4 cylinder Avenger.

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
I suddenly appreciate Mikey more.

Oh fuck.

now that helps a bit. im just wondering if they changed something with the part between 95 and 97. doing that gave me the right part

Originally posted by Locke_db
When I click the first link, and tell it 2.0 Litre 'Y' engine, It shows me a 4g63 crank sensor.

Lol, and how many times is this part sold by the counter jockey and the argument ensues? Hahaha.

Originally posted by juggalo4lyfe
im just wondering if they changed something with the part between 95 and 97.

Yeah, they changed the pig tail.

Originally posted by juggalo4lyfe
they have 2 different length sensors 1 thats 1.5" and 1 thats 1.75"

Says who? The same counter jockey who wants to sell you a 2g turbo knock sensor?

Originally posted by juggalo4lyfe
they all have the one which is supposed to mount to the oil pump.

And they all want to sell you a knock sensor for a 2g turbo. Fucking counter jockey's. "Hey its gotta be right, it says it right here in the computer"

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
2 spare sensors that were in my built car and they are both 1.5" long

OP, you made me get up off my lazy ass and check my box downstairs. Measured one of my "known goods" and she measures.....(drum roll please)....1.5" long!

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
I have 2 running 420A and one totalled right now.

And what, pray tell, is going on here?^^

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon I suddenly appreciate Mikey more.

Does anybody feel the world spinning "off axis"?

yes bullett i most certainly do.

now, here is my advice as i have also fought with this issue. mine a little more advanced due to megasquirt (by the way she is running and driving now)

if you rewired your sensor which it sounds like you did, and you followed the shop manual, there is your problem.

the shop manual wiring is incorrect. when wiring like that it shorts and destroys the sensor out. bang useless. i have 3 of them currently.

go to a shop and ask them to use their SNAP0-ON modis or veris to print out the test procedure to the ckp sensor. then go to a CHRYSLER or MITSUBISHI dealer and buy the ckp sensor and updated pig tail. now and only now wire the new pigtail CORRECTLY.

let me recap that last one
oem- made care
autozone- made duralast
oem-made car you drive
autozone- made duralast...
GO TO OEM FOR IMPORTANT PARTS!
learn from my mistake.

now only good thing here is take that durajunk sensor to them, tell them you tested it with an oscilloscope and it was bad when you got it. youll get your 65.96 back and never go there for important parts again. ever.


p.s.
i tested my sensor with a scope battery and a magnet. i was getting a wave from it from 1.75 inches AWAY FROM THE FRONT OF IT. the length dont matter a bit. i promise.

the sensor contains a magnetic based transistor and thats all it is. therefore it doesn't require a set airgap its pretty easy going.


well now i think i contributed my fair share. if it helps great, if not sorry guys for wasting space. - - im going to figure out why i keep blowing apart vacuum t fittings. good day to all!

wow. now that i can do. i got the sensor i do have from carquest which is supposed to be oe. but its for a 97 avenger which is what this motor is out of. which i think should be good to go. there are 2 different pictures for the crank sensor wiring in the book. i went with the one that alldata provided. is that good or should i still have a dealer check the sensor?

whats messed up is that all the parts are the crank sensor. but advanced auto has the one which is 1.750". so ill try this one i do have that is 1.5" and probably take the oil pan off and see how the reluctor wheel looks. and if its not bad, i may have to see if i can close the gap between that and the sensor to .035 and see what happens

Originally posted by juggalo4lyfe
whats messed up is that all the parts are the crank sensor. but advanced auto has the one which is 1.750". so ill try this one i do have that is 1.5" and probably take the oil pan off and see how the reluctor wheel looks. and if its not bad, i may have to see if i can close the gap between that and the sensor to .035 and see what happens

you can not gap the sensor on a 420a. its not adjustable.
and the reluctorwheel is a casting of the crankshaft.

ok. this is the first time working on a dsm. i have worked on other cars and not had a lot of the parts this has

The all data wiring diagram is correct. I believe but cannot remember the ground is in the middle?

An if you trace that diagram further you'll notice the 5v comparative circuit in the ecu which is usually what fails.

yes. ground is in the middle. when i check resistance on the sensor i get 1.11? or so between ground and 5v signal

I've never checked them for resistance.
Perhaps mark could check one in his box:)
I've always used oscilloscope

Originally posted by itsaslow95
Perhaps mark could check one in his box :)

You know how goddamn lazy Mark is. Hell, it took 6 pages to get me to go down and measure the one I have.

Originally posted by bullettdsm

Originally posted by itsaslow95 Perhaps mark could check one in his box :)

You know how goddamn lazy Mark is. Hell, it took 6 pages to get me to go down and measure the one I have.

Took me 6 to even type ahaha:) if Someone wants to jack my car up for me I'll check otherwise it's been on all four wheels for a week and it's setting a record!

Originally posted by itsaslow95

Originally posted by bullettdsm

Originally posted by itsaslow95 Perhaps mark could check one in his box :)

You know how goddamn lazy Mark is. Hell, it took 6 pages to get me to go down and measure the one I have.

Took me 6 to even type ahaha:) if Someone wants to jack my car up for me I'll check otherwise it's been on all four wheels for a week and it's setting a record!

My car has been running long enough that I actually paid for metal plates. First time in over 2 years. I'm starting to get worried

Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G

Originally posted by itsaslow95

Originally posted by bullettdsm

Originally posted by itsaslow95 Perhaps mark could check one in his box :)

You know how goddamn lazy Mark is. Hell, it took 6 pages to get me to go down and measure the one I have.

Took me 6 to even type ahaha:) if Someone wants to jack my car up for me I'll check otherwise it's been on all four wheels for a week and it's setting a record!

My car has been running long enough that I actually paid for metal plates. First time in over 2 years. I'm starting to get worried

Show off :'(

after thinking about this and thinking back to school. you shouldnt be able to ohm test a hall effect switch due to the fact that to activate the switch it needs voltage and if you ohm something with a voltage potential your going to let the smoke out of your meter... or blow its fuse if it has one.

took the sensor to dealership and they ohm tested it and may have a short between the power supply pin and ground pin in the sensor

Check your wiring before putting new one on

as far as what part of the wiring. i checked for any shorted or crossed wires already

Wiring to sensor. More specifically the pin out

ill check it again. but i believe i have it wired according to alldata