Well got the MSnS install complete and dynoed and I thought I would share. Looks like Megasquirt is a pretty good answer for decent power NA :cheers .

Thanks go out to Terry for getting me started and Paul for helping me to understand. If you want to know how the ECU interacts with the engine of our cars, the best thing you could do is install MSnS. I have learned an enormous amount via my install/research.

The install itself is pretty straight forward, but the tuning/software set-up is where I learned the most. I was able to fire her up with spark and fuel maps that I generated from one of Terry's maps and a neon map. From there I hooked the stock spark back up, tuned the fuels some, then put my spark map on and worked that a little. That gave the tuner (Matt from Dentsport in Mass. Excellent MSnS tuner who says he does these as standalone's) something to start with.

I used Matt because I wanted to be sure that my inexperience didn't sway the numbers. If I had done it, there would have been doubt in my mind. Matt is a pro tuner with experience in MSnS so that took out any doubt. Both my torque curve and my power curve are much more condusive to my intended shift points.

For those who think that this is the first NA with MSnS, you're partially right. It looks like a tie between me and Kevin (shazow1969). Great minds think alike :thumbsup. Would have loved to run with Kevin at the SO, but unfortunately, Prez Bush says no. I'm sure that we'll hear from him, in just a little while, on his numbers. I'm still working on ironing a few things out and possibly going higher. We'll see.

BTW, I've got some even goofier ideas of a different project. I've just got to find a good 2gnt donor car (Oops just found one. Anyone want to donate some Crower 3's, heh heh?).

wow that makes me want to mod n/a

Congrats Mark, nice to hear. Now you have to update your record in the Wiki.

Now I really can't wait to get mine up and running. But since i want a baseline 1/4mile pass on the stock ECU and will be installing my MSnS in late march.

Great numbers there man can't wait to see mine. Out of curiosity what kind of Dyno were you on? I'll be doing mine on a Dynojet. I'll post up mine once it's done.

-Kevin

Soon as spring comes around I'll be installing my MSnS as well. However I'm still NA with a low compression setup for boost. I'm excited to see how it performs on the top end with all the headwork I have done.


http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=1185

Congrats.
Lets see the dyno sheet/air fuel graph.

Also I hope your gonna share your maps :)

Now we need to get someone with some high comp, decent cams/adj gears, quality header, etc..
With the MSNS it should be fairly easy to break into the 200's with some decent engine mods NA.

Originally posted by mcgyvr
Congrats. Lets see the dyno sheet/air fuel graph. Also I hope your gonna share your maps :) Now we need to get someone with some high comp, decent cams/adj gears, quality header, etc.. With the MSNS it should be fairly easy to break into the 200's with some decent engine mods NA.

My current build list.

Wiseco 10.5:1 compression
Eagle H-beam rods
Balanced rotating assembly.
Melling high volume oil Pump
PD Mechanical timing tensioner conversion
Full P&P head
Crower stage 2 cams. (indexed to stock degreeing 110 LSA)
AEM tru time Adj cam gears
AFX UDP
PaceSetter Ceramic coated 4-2-1 header with stainless 2 1/2" catback
Hand ported (52MM) TB
ARP head and header studs (they work for the intake manifold to head as well)
MSD DIS-2 Digital Plus Ignition
MSD coil
MSD plug wires

Soon to add

MSnS
450cc DSM injectors
Aeromotive 1:1 FPR
Custom High volume Fuel rail
-6an Plumbing In the engine bay
walboro 255 Lph Fuel Pump
3/8" feed line hard tubing from the pump to the regulator in the engine bay
5/16" return line from the regulator back the the tank
high volume -6an fuel filter in line from the regulator to the rail.
Hand P&P the Intake manifold

I believe bullet's set up is almost identical to mine. But I don't know what's he's doing for fuel supply.

We shall see where we go from here. I think Crower 3's or better might be needed to get that 200 whp mark.

-Kevin

Awsome numbers for N/A.

And thanks by the way. I have been looking for a shop to tune my car once I finish the motor. Ill be calling them.

Tom

Originally posted by mcgyvr
Also I hope your gonna share your maps :)

Mark, your maps were pretty damn close to the AF/X ecu, no?

Now custom make an ITB set up, and a long tubular header and you are getting pretty damn close to 200hp. :P

Congrats again mark. I need to fix the links on your page. they are broke off. There is a trick to linking outside of the wiki

http://talontimes.blogspot.com


99GS
95TSI

Originally posted by mcgyvr
Congrats. Lets see the dyno sheet/air fuel graph.

Definitely. Host that shit in the wiki. We've come a long way from Todd's 120-ish dyno slip back in the day. When you think about it, that's more than a 50% increase in NA power over stock. Very, very nice, Mark.

Originally posted by mcgyvr
Also I hope your gonna share your maps :)

As do I. ;) I know I sold off my MSnS and wideband, but I just can't part her out. So unless I invest in MSnS, I'm just wasting time and money.

This makes me wonder, Mark, did you happen to get any pulls with the stock ECU controlling things? It would be interesting to see how MSnS compares to the stocker. Right now, once I pass 5500rpm on the stocker, it just feels like I'm losing timing. I know she used to pull all the way up to 7800rpm with that AFX/R and, to be honest, I kinda miss that. :(

Originally posted by mcgyvr
Now we need to get someone with some high comp, decent cams/adj gears, quality header, etc.. With the MSNS it should be fairly easy to break into the 200's with some decent engine mods NA.

Marks has all that on this car. I think he's considering the Crower 3s. To be honest, there's a part of me that really, really wants those for Daisy as well, but until I've got that pimpin job which will afford me a four car garage, I can't have both my cars be project cars anymore. :(

This sort of thing is almost inspirational. Sure, it's not quite 200whp... yet, but it's a long way from 107whp.

:thumbsup

I'm glad to hear everything worked out, Mark. I was actually just thinking about you... the last I heard, you got the car started, but it wasn't tuned yet. 176.22whp is damn impressive, by the way. Keep me updated on all your ideas and projects; I'm really curious to see how far you can push this thing!

-Paul

Thanks for all the supporting comments guys. I'm really excited to see some interest in the NA's. It's not such a bad thing and possibly even more interesting when I get to my other project.

As for the graphs (and tables etc.), you know I will be sharing. I've shared every step of the way so far, so this will be no different. The more people that try this, the faster we'll become. Unfortunately, I'm a little balls to the walls right now, due to the other project and race season coming up (and of course that annoying real-life work. Gotta pay the bills ;) ).

And yes, got a great spark and fuel map for the NA's. I used the 4g63 ignitor with stock injectors (btw, not even CLOSE to maxing them out with the 190 walbro included), so hopefully the matches will be pretty good. Keep in mind that we were throwing over 14 to 1 and 40+ degrees at this. But it's easy enough to step back from that map.

Jason, yeah, yeah, I definitely gotta wiki it on my personal page and dyno page, lol. I'm going back to VR (Kevin, that's a dynojet that is known in the area for conservative numbers. I did an initial dyno on a mustang dyno at ESP in Mass. The numbers we ended up with there were 165. When I got on VR's dyno for the final tuning, the first run matched those numbers. Just to show you how UNinflated my dyno numbers are :P) to try to get a printout of my AF/X tune with the other run posted on that sheet. They should be able to do that because they did it while I was there. Just couldn't print it out because they had a printer problem. Suffice it to say, that Howell did an excellent job of pulling power out of our ECU's. Their curve does a nice job of following mine (just a little lower and not as extended on both sides). I also took pics of the MSnS install so that I could do a write up at some point.

Kevin, sorry about the misinformation, I thought you were up and running already, I LOVE the idea of a stock baseline run (sorry, Brian, I didn't get one on the dyno :( . I really wanted to just slipped by). You might try to get a stock ecu dyno run in.

Kain, I got something up my sleeve along those lines, not quite the same but a little sumpin', sumpin' :evilgrin .

tbone, I don't recomend people in the automotive industry unless I really, really believe in them. Matt at Dentsport is the real deal. Just a great guy, also. You can see a car he tuned on the cover of the March edition of Sport Compact Car. PM me if you need more info when you get close.

As for the tweaking for more power, I THINK I discovered a problem in my exhaust that MAY free up some power. We'll see about that.

Wow, those are very impressive numbers. Congrats Mark!

Originally posted by bullettdsm
stock injectors (btw, not even CLOSE to maxing them out with the 190 walbro included)

Worth pointing out. NA guys. Save your money. You don't need any injector upgrades.

Originally posted by bullettdsm
Brian, . . . You might try to get a stock ecu dyno run in.

I'll add it to my "Pending Modifications" list. I like it when deej gets to twitching. :7 (Been thinking about it. Ya know. Just for shits 'n' giggles before I park her for the bulk of the year.)

Good show, Mark. You are absolutely right about how this information needs to be shared. The more people who put the effort into this pursuit, the better the entire community will become.

Kudos.

Glad to hear it

I still have to program mine, haven't had the time to deal with it, and I'm all right when it comes to wrenches, but not programming, so I need all the help I can get.

Originally posted by VX100
Glad to hear it I still have to program mine, haven't had the time to deal with it, and I'm all right when it comes to wrenches, but not programming, so I need all the help I can get.

I'll help ya out Todd,lol. I need the practice before my MSnS goes in ;) Thanks again for lending me those torque wrenches....the sleeper is purring like a kitten now.

Congrats Mark, I was wondering how long it would be before you got the MS up and running :D

You won't be ahead of me this year at the track though lol.

Originally posted by jack_of_trades
You won't be ahead of me this year at the track though lol.

Heh heh, oo a challenge :wavy , lol. I love a challenge. Now I gotta really drive the shit outta the car.

Sounds like the new set-up is up and running. No shift problems then?
I'm looking at E-town beginning of March (if they plow the track :order ).

Let me know if I can help. Even though the computer crap is my weak point, I learned quite a bit on the install.

Originally posted by bullettdsm
Sounds like the new set-up is up and running. No shift problems then?

Yep, TCU was seeing that my coolant temp was around 170* when it was really 180-190*. The automatic TCU doesn't allow you to high rev in 3rd gear past 70mph to protect the tranny and the engine when coolant temps are 175* or lower. A new sensor and a little wire repair and I'm back on track :)

I probably won't drop the 5 speed in until mid summer so I should be able to get at least one or 2 trips to the track with the auto tranny still....just to benchmark the progress.

ahh, so it was just the sensor... I think I remember we both came to that conclusion.

I'll take all the help I can get when it comes to programming the thing

Ok, so my new estimate for you Mark is a 14.09sec run. We should start a poll,lol. It'll be like fantasy football for 2GNT's haha

That is of course if you can keep your drivetrain together long enough this year,lol.