Look Guys I have been debating for a while now about the turbo or non-turbo question. I wanna no how much work does it take for people to get our cars NA into the low 14's. I also like track racing and have my eclipse as my daily driver so I cannot afford any downtime thus the appeal of staying NA any help will be usefull even MODS list's would be nice. Again Thanks A lot I like my eclipse and I just wana make it better.

Do a little research on the topic. The fastest non-turbo 420a eclipse is around 13.7-13.8 I believe and that is held by Mark Bullett(sp?). It will take more money to go fast NA, but some people are going that route to see how far the 420a will go. There are a couple people on here that are serious non-turbo people, I guess you could say, so try a little search to see what you come up with.

It all depends on what kind of commitment you want to have to the car. Personally, if I were going to stay NA, I'd rebuild the motor with high compression pistons, and throw on a wet nitrous system. The only problem with that is the rebuild as you said you can't be without the car since it's your daily. I guess just work on the intake, exhaust, spark, and nitrous... You will not want to test the stock internals on more than a 75 shot though. I know there are other guys here with more knowledge than me that might be able to go into a more specific formula on what will get you low 14's on a non-turbo.

Here's what I did with my car.

short ram intake
2.5 cat back
upgraded ignition (Screamin' Demon coil)
8.5mm wires
50 shot wet kit (I lost the nitrous pill for the 75 shot that came with the kit)

Now, I'm prolly still slower than the school bus cause I've got low compression pistons, but that's cause I've got plans for turbo... As soon as I can get the shell up and running. Good luck with your goal, let me know how it turns out, or if you have any questions.

Yeah I did do a lot of searching but could not come up with anything new. I also thought that the fastest was 13.9 so it impresses me that someone actually is getting into turbo times with an NA. I believe I can get a motor from the junk yard and work on that and hopefully get the car running right. I just wanna have a quick daily driver and sooner or later get a second " REALLY FUCKING FAST CAR " as my best friend would say. So depending on how crazy people have gotten will dictate how far I will go. Again any of those people who are NA dedicated please respond to this post. And if Some were to supply a parts list for going into the 14's I would appreciate and last but not least was the 13.7 using NO2

Here is Mark's thread about making it into the 13's. Check out his Wiki page in his sig also to see his mods.

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=11&topic_id=5546&mesg_id=5548#5548

Ghost, if you can, buy me a little time (I'm hoping 2 weeks). I'm working on a project right now that I'm waiting for one part on. If it goes as expexted (not that anything ever does, lol), I can give you a much better idea about costs of the 14's NA.

As for the 13.9 runs, I have taken out that set-up and I am working on another set-up (sometimes I get impatient). Yeah, still waiting on parts for that. Wait, no! I just got my bearings and gaskets in saturday, now I'm waiting on ME to put her together :P

Very Cool I would love u to donate the 13.9 setup to the " MY CAR IS SLOW AND NEEDS TO BE FAST FOUNDATION " or at least tell me what parts you used, but yeah u have all the time in the world. Money is a scarace commodity these days and I really want to see what needs to be done to get there. Again any and All post are appreciated. I can't wait to see what ur using and how far you can go Cap.

Turbo route usually has down time so I would suggest doing NA. Reguardless, you will have down time with a heavily modified car.

Any mods list's and times to go with them wouild be greatly appreciated thanks.

Have you looked at Mark's mods yet like I said already?

http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

Also look up the users VX100, as he has/is building a NA car as well, and DR1665.

Yeah what was this good for, Low 14's or 13's.

(sigh) Here's the rub...

It takes more than just the technology to go that fast. Todd has had the driving skill, but not the budget for the last few years. His car is still closer to stock than to built and he slowly chipped away at the all motor record for years through constant practice.

I don't have the skill of Todd or Mark. Hell, my car has never seen a strip or dyno. Probably never will, either. My game plan was to go nucking futs, building a BA NA motor that would perhaps compensate for my lack of experience at the track. To date, I have spent more than $6,000 on the engine in my car. I get mentioned in these all motor threads because I have a pretty decent engine in my car (and because I have long been an advocate for all motor 2GNT performance). My build list is practically the same as Mark's when he first dipped into the 14s, but don't let that fool you, just because I have one of the most built up NA motors around, doesn't mean I've done or have plans to do anything more with it. (Although, if I did, I could very easily drop another $2,000 into it tomorrow and give Mark a real run for his money. This shit gets in your blood, you know.)

More importantly, just because it's not turbo doesn't mean it's A) less expensive or B) more reliable. In order to compete at this level, you need a 420A built to the limits and driven right there at 110%. To get the top end needed to haul that kind of ass, you're going to lose some daily driveability. My car has extensive headwork done and Crower 2s and does *not* like driving around below 3000rpm. I'm pretty sure Mark is on Crower 3s, now, which means his power band is shifted even higher. I'm not saying the car is a bitch to drive in traffic or drive-thrus, but she does *not* like it. Especially when it's 120* outside and I have the A/C running.

Mark has the benefit of being experienced in both racing and engine building. He has the skills and tools to be able to do 90% of the engine work himself. He does research through the archives here and then executes based on what he discovers.

It all boils down to this:
1. How much civility are you willing to give up in pursuit of all motor performance in your daily driver?
2. How much are you prepared to spend on a project that, for all intents and purposes, is still only going to be as fast as a stock GST?
3. (This is the tough one.) Are you going to be able to dedicate the time required to research, both here and elsewhere, the theories, methods, and techniques for extracting every ouce of power out of your engine?

Knowlege is power. The more you know how to do yourself, the less you have to pay others to do it for you. The less you pay others to do it for you, the more money goes directly into your project.

Keep your eyes on the top of that mountain - that's where you want to be when you're done, but don't forget to set base camps along the way. This isn't something that happens over night, so you need to keep focused on short term goals as well if you're going to stay in it to win it. If you're not having fun, you're not sticking with it, and you're just throwing your money away.

Note:
I say all this to you not to discourage you in this pursuit, but to give you a taste of reality. My never-been-tested all motor Talon? It's got a fine layer of dust on it in my garage right now. It's got a blown head gasket, loses a quart of oil ever 400 miles or so, is no longer street legal (emissions-related), and needs MSnS installed if I were to complete my build. I had the MSnS/wideband for it, but I sold both of them. Shit happens. I've even considered selling the head off the car and had someone in line with almost $2000 cash in hand, but still the car sits.

Don't think for one minute that I don't love the car I've built. Daisy and I go back over a decade. She is the love-of-my-life when it comes to cars and I've snuck her out twice in the last month. As I'm sure Mark can agree, there ain't no DSM like an all motor DSM. Like I said, this shit gets into your blood. To hear the engine settle into a nice, lopey idle... To feel it coursing through solid and filled motor mounts to the tips of your fingers... To dump the clutch, stand on the gas, and hear your car wail like a motherfucking banshee at 8000+ rpm onto the highway... That's what it's all about.

Turbo or not, I hope all you guys get to experience that sort of exhileration behind the wheel some day.

Give serious thought to where you want to be with the car when you're done. Google can't give you directions if you don't know exactly where you're going...

WOW I am speechless and I thank you a hundred times over. You really did give me an idea of what I want to do. One other question is do you have your interior and such still in the car or have you gotten rid of all the creature comforts in your quest for speed. I like the idea of NA because unlike turbo I can slowly build my car up unlike turboing which gives you instant downtime.

Turboing does not give you instant downtime. I finished putting my turbo kit on my car in less than a day (probably around 5-6 hours of "work"). My first time I took my time and got it done in a couple days (between work and sleep). It all depends in how much you know and how much you have researched to decide if you will have downtime or not. IMO, you will have more downtime with building an NA eclipse. You will have to pull the head, get machine work done, put in higher compression pistons, rods, etc while I can just bolt on a turbo and some fuel components and be done running about 6-8 psi.

Originally posted by TheGhost
WOW I am speechless and I thank you a hundred times over. You really did give me an idea of what I want to do. One other question is do you have your interior and such still in the car or have you gotten rid of all the creature comforts in your quest for speed. I like the idea of NA because unlike turbo I can slowly build my car up unlike turboing which gives you instant downtime.

If it's your dd, why strip the creature comforts?

Get yourself a peice of shit beater (i've seen '80s crx's and hbs go for 300-400 bucks in running condition) to drive when you are working on your car. Either that or beg friends to give you rides where you have to go! lol!

Get yourself a good understanding of your basic turbo kit and you'll see it doesn't take weeks to put one in. Maybe a day or two at the most. Installing pistons and rings is time consuming. Rods are time consuming......all of that is time consuming. Valves, lifters....i can go on and on.

I think a SAFE bet to give you some good power at a good price fairly quick is to do a basic Intake/header/exhaust upgrade. Spray a 50 shot of laughing gas and get that power down a little more efficiently with a short throw shifter. I wouldn't risk spraying a 75shot myself but you can try. I've seen nitrous do horrible things to cars in person.

Another route is just to build a spare engine up over time to handle what you want it to. Call some of your buddies and you can have the old engine out and the new beast dropped in in a day.

Like what everyone else is saying, DO YOUR HOMEWORK and use common sense. Atleast you have a fairly doable goal. I came in here shooting my mouth off about streetable 13's and 300whp on my beat up 98 eclipse. It's doable but sometimes i want to put my head between my knees and cry when i think hard enough about what it's going to take and how i'm going to get it done.

/\ /\ /\ Very true, our interiors don't weigh that much, if you're really looking to save weight at the track, just pull out the seats and spare and such before the race. that's where you'll find the most weight anyways. I pulled out all the upholstered stuff once (seats, carpet) to clean it and that made a HUGE difference in how the car felt. I've also stripped everything out but the dash before and I couldn't tell a difference from just removing the seats. it's only like ~30lb of plastic as compared to over 100lbs+ of seatbracing and foam.

Originally posted by TheGhost
Yeah what was this good for, Low 14's or 13's.

Yes.

You misunderstood or I did not tell you. I have no money all I buy are junk yard parts. So it would take me forever to get everything and then make every thing work. Meanwhile I could go and get a header and bolt that on then an underdrive pulley then go buy a head from the junk yard get that worked and swap them out the longest downtime would be the rods and pistons and that would take a day including the hone. I always wanted to junkyard my eclipse for example I have a Mustang 5.0 fuel pump in my car, more flow, lot less money. Soon I will have SAAB injectors or some other junkyard favorite with higher rate injectors then the NA ones. You see I junkyard build my cars because that is all I can afford.

Glad we could help.

Originally posted by TheGhost
You misunderstood or I did not tell you. I have no money all I buy are junk yard parts. So it would take me forever . . . because that is all I can afford.

I think the misunderstanding is on both sides of the table. I can see where you're coming from, but let me put it to you in the form of a couple comparisons.

IN ORDER TO RUN 14s OR BETTER:
-Turbo: Piece together a DIY turbosystem for $1000-$1500 (or less) total investment. Piece it together over time to reduce the initial investment. While you collect your components, you read, read, read the archives so that, when you have everything ready to go, it takes you a Friday night-Saturday morning to install it. Then you go cruising your boosted car that same night.

-All Motor: Power is made in the head. If you've got the skills, you can likely dip into the 14s without touching the bottom end, but you've still got to pull the head off the engine and massage it. If you have all the tools and information at your disposal, the car is down for a *minimum* of three days while you do your thing. This doesn't include things like cams, lifters, springs, retainers, and valves, which you *aren't* finding at junkyards. You're looking at between $500-$1000 just for the parts alone. Figure in a shop doing your headwork for you and you're looking at a minimum of $1500 for what you need done and a solid week of downtime. As an example, I've got over $2600 of my build money tied up in the head... and there's still things I could do for more power!

Taking it a step further, if you want the utmost in power, you're going to need to be able to spin that bottom end to upwards of 8000rpm to get the most out of even a set of Crower 2 cams. That means the block has to come out and go to a shop. Knock, knock! Who's there? Another-Week-Of-Downtime and his buddy Mr. At-Least-Another-$500.

And we still haven't got into tuning, since the ECU isn't about to let you do anything fun with that engine. The stock ECU is scared of power and once you cross 4500rpm or so with an engine like Mark and I run, it's going to do everything in it's power to dumb it all down. Right when my engine begins to pull at WOT, the ECU starts fucking with things and it ends up making more noise than power. Makes me fucking sick to my stomach every time.

x(

So you see? The junkyard is only an option when you're building a turbosystem. That's where you find your used turbocharger and intercooler. That's where you might find a fuel pump or larger injectors (which, by the way, are one of the last things you need in a serious all motor build, trust me on that one - or trust the unburned fuel all over my rear bumper).

Back to your questions about interior, my Talon still sports 95% of the interior. I've removed a couple panels from the hatch area, but weight reduction of any significance is a major undertaking. I've had the car down to 2580lbs with 3/4 tank of gas and my fat ass not sitting in it, but but it still had the center console, both airbags, all plastic interior trim and speakers, the radio and the carpet, and the stock driver's seat. That's ghetto, imo.

You have much to learn padawan. Fortunately, in the right place you are.

Thanks Masta Yoda =)

I now see what you mean and understand that knowledge is power. And in that I have decided to go the "MOST TRAVELED" path of turboing my car with the hope to hit the 13 second mark. I will read and learn but will rely on all of our MITSYE brotheren to help me on my quest to go fast. But I enjoy the track more than the straight line so I will be asking question's more and more. God BLESS all 2GNT'ers for we are the cream of the crop.

Originally posted by TheGhost
Thanks Masta Yoda =) I now see what you mean and understand that knowledge is power. And in that I have decided to go the "MOST TRAVELED" path of turboing my car with the hope to hit the 13 second mark. I will read and learn but will rely on all of our MITSYE brotheren to help me on my quest to go fast. But I enjoy the track more than the straight line so I will be asking question's more and more. God BLESS all 2GNT'ers for we are the cream of the crop.

Uh, uh, :nono you didn't give me my 2 weeks...........tsk, tsk.

Originally posted by bullettdsm
Uh, uh, :nono you didn't give me my 2 weeks...........tsk, tsk.

Got to work on that R/T, boss. Can't have Captain Half-Ass beating Captain Caveman off the line like this every time, now can we? :order

I'm glad to see you're reconsidering your options, Ghost. Like I said, it's a lot of work to go fast, regardless of how you choose to get there, so we have to keep it fun. The instant it stops being fun is the instant you start looking into other cars. That is the path to the dark side. (*cough*Subaru/Honda*cough*)

Originally posted by DR1665
Got to work on that R/T, boss. Can't have Captain Half-Ass beating Captain Caveman off the line like this every time, now can we?

LOL! :thumbsup

Originally posted by bullettdsm

Originally posted by DR1665 Got to work on that R/T, boss. Can't have Captain Half-Ass beating Captain Caveman off the line like this every time, now can we?

LOL! :thumbsup

Whiird. :thumbsup

Yeah you still got your two weeks or is it 1 and a half now. But I still wana know.