ok, know that ive thought of a useful topic, i guess i have the first post....

i remember reading on asog or one of the neon boards about installing individual TBs on the 420a using (i think) motorcycle TBs. has anyone dont this on an eclipse? i saw a neon vid with this and it sounded like a freaking beast, and all the results seem to point to great gains in HP. can anyone shed some light on this project....i would imagine the price to benifit ratio would be pretty good, not to mention the show-off factor. what about fuel consumption...would this need to be altered takeing into consideration how rich our cars run stock?


i hope this is the style post expected in this section...if its not feel free to move it mods, im actually interested in responses on this.

I had a quad TB setup off a bike that I was going to make work with the 2GNT but I sold it to Dino after I sold the car.


________________________________________________________________________________________
Car Sold


http://hometown.aol.com/ohshootuhh/
www.Fast420A.com

the hahn neon runs a new intake manifold that looks like it does osmething similiar, might wanna check that out, maybe you can fab it to fit, www.hahnracecraft.com

hmmm...hans website is down, damnit.

any other links anyone could provide would be great, i know some neon guys have done it, anyone have pics/writeups of this on an eclipse/talon? as i stated earlier, the 420as have tons of fuel, so concentrating on adding some air to the mix would be an ideal upgrade to "balance" things out. anyone have info on wether this would require fuel control?

search on the neon board. this is something some of them do regulary

neons.org

Here's the ASOG post...

http://bbs.asog.net/viewtopic.php?t=43093

^^^^THANK YOU!!!

i knew id seen that thread somwhere, but i couldnt remember where.

a big :thumbsup to you!!

Im actually almost done my setup. it uses a stratus manifold and 99 GSXR tb's. Im doing it a little bit different than the neons, instead of welding and bolting the tbs to the manifold im going to use rubber couplings so i can adjust the runner lengths.

My only concern with the quad throttle body set up is how is the MAP sensor going to be positioned? I know the guy working on it on the ASOG board has tapped all 4 throttle bodies and then connected them together, but will that give an accurate reading?

Im working on it too, Im actually machining the whole assembly out of a block of aluminum on the CNC machine here at work complete with velocity stacks and all, right now all I have done is the throttle plates and the shaft for them, but I still need to o-ring the shaft to seal agains vacuum leaks. Its going to fit right on the lower manifold for now unless I come up with a different way.

You will definitely need to upgrade to #30 injectors and a warlbro pump, but that should be enough to get it running.

this setup wont really come alive till you bump up compression and add some nice cams to really make use of all the new found air coming in.

here is the writeup from the neon boards, its got some good info to get started, http://www.abdgraphics.com/iansite/ianthrottlebody2.htm

One of the main problems is room, as it is you will probably have to run a cowl type hood to give clearance for the air box/velocity stacks,etc..

But yes Jaded Silver from the ASOG board is much farther than me, he opted for the motorcycle TB's and at first was using ones with a dual throttle plate setup and was working on a way to open them partly to maintain low rpm torque and allow for stock like drivability.

Another way to get the map sensor to work would be to have a vacuum block that is connected to all the individual runners post TB via hose of some sort. That way you will get some sort of equalzed pressure between the four runners. Then have the map sensor on the vacuum block.

Dino and I are using Kyle's old quad tbs and machining a adpater plate. Our biggest obstacles are looking liking idle air control and tps. I think the tps we can get working by making an adapter but getting idle air to work properly will be another story. I hope we can get it bolted up to my car by the end of March.

What can i use for a vacume box? also is it better to actually tap the runners of the intake for vacume and run it to the box or can i use the ones that are alrady on the TBs (they are really small).

For a vacuum box I was going to make a sheet metal box with ports for the vacuum lines from the runners and spot for the stock map. I'm tapping my runners just because I'd trust those a little better (since I put them in) but I wouldn't see why the ones on the tbs wouldn't work.

I've looked into this a lot. Lots of planning, some on paper and some in my head. MAP sensor on a vaccum rail closely attached to the TB's, so you get a good reading, the IAC I've been debating on, possibly another set of taps into the runners... haven't decided on this yet.

I want to do a long runner design and havethe TB's point up instead of back like in the Neon set up.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

>and some in my head. MAP sensor on a vaccum rail closely
>attached to the TB's, so you get a good reading,

Yes, I agree that running lines to a common location (a box in this case) and mounting the MAP sensor there is a better idea. I am not sure how much vacuum you will get, but it's better than trying to plum 4 hoses into a map sensor.

Also, you have to consider that there are things on the car that work off of vacuum. The box is also a good idea because you will need to make ports for the brake booster line, the EGR, and whatever else needs vacuum. Again, I am not sure how much vacuum you will see from this kind of setup, hopefully it will be enough. But, if it isn't you can run a vacuum pump of some kind (this is what diesels do).

>the IAC I've
>been debating on, possibly another set of taps into the
>runners... haven't decided on this yet.

I think the IAC problem will be the most diffucult problem to overcome. I'm not saying it won't work, I think it will, but I think it will be tricky.

How is it done on the 4 TB kit sold for Neons? Someone out there must know.

Both MAP and IAC are plugged into the vaccum rail that is attached to all TBs/runners. If memory serves the inlet is just a breather attached to the other side of the IAC... instead of pulling from the otherside of the throttle body butterfly. I need to find my set of pictures of the Electromotive set up.



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Here are some ebay auctions for the GSXR TB's that work pretty well for this. note these are 2000+ and have the two butterflies

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2405551567&category=10066
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2405947610&category=34284

Yeah, you can't use up to 1998 either...those are still carburators :) Even though they look like TB's

98-99 GSXR TB's are the single butterfly ones that are ideal for this.. pre-98 are carbed, and post 99 are dual butterfly.

My bro-in-law is a Honda Motorcycle salesman. I get to hear about all the little details, even on the competition.

Hey Dino, what's TB size on these then?



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

I may be wrong but I think they are 36mm each.

hmmm, so the stock throttle body on 2gnt's is 52mm, that means about 2120mm^2 in cross sectional area at WOT of air potental for the whole engine, or about 530mm^2 per cylinder...

EDIT me on the other hand, i have the popular AF/X throttle body at 55mm. that's around 2375mm^2 for the whole engine and about 600mm^2 per cylinder. using the same method for the jeep throttle bodies, you get about 700mm^2 per cylinder. /EDIT

if they are 36mm, then that means that each cylinder gets 1020mm^2 of throttlebodyness? holy shit! that's like twice as much area! would be scary to see how much power you could make out of that with an insane all motor setup. you'd need some good cams to take advantage of that. i want to see someone do it and beat some of the turbo guys!

Heh, serious cams and a serious P&P job on the head with oversized valves :)

Wow, that sounds a lot like... Thura's car :-)

Okay, dumbass question time. This would require a fuel system comparable to what the turbo guys go through would it?

It wouldn't require the rising rate regulator but probably some bigger injectors and a bigger fuel pump.

Hey Dino, you forgot about the big shot of gas that is on mine (though it looks like it will have to be converted to direct port). :thumbsup

hey guys, just thought i'd shed some light on the subject...first the IAC will not work on an itb setup. with induvidual runners and no plenum, you can not bypass air and keep enough vaccum in the runners for the MAP to read accuratly at idle, making this impossible to do on factory electronics, without serious idle problems (surge,RITCH,stumble). the only way I can run induvidual TB setups is stand alone management. even using stand alone, you can not even use load (MAP) based cals, you have to use a TPS-RPM based MAP.
Not shooting anyone down, but i've tried to make it work, and I don't want you guys to have the headaches that I did.....

Well, we're gonna try. There's a few Neon guys that have put together ITB setups using stock electronics that have run fairly well by their own testaments.

I don't see why idle air would be a problem - the 2 liter is still going to require the same amount of air at idle as it would with a single TB and plenum, you just have to find a different way of providing it.

Then why did Electromotives set-up still use MAP based calculations to deturmine fuel? It is posible, but it requires the use of a vaccum rail or box to pull vaccum from all four TB's. The Neon guys have successfully done and made it work on the stock ECU. I'm not saying a stand-alone wouldn't be better, more precise fuel control, and more importantly timing control would be very nice. But the stock ECU has been able to run off of it. I highly recommend a piggy back like the S-AFC to get it in tune. But it's been done on stock ECU, so it is possible.

Once my exhaust set-up is complete, and I get some flow out of my motor. I'll start working on a set up (once I get the parts from mike_d).



15.9 @ 86.7mph
97 Eclipse RS

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

http://www.webcon.co.uk/newitems/alpha_zetec.htm

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hehe.. my little ford 'econo' motor already has a beautiful quad TB kit made for it.. with impressive gains and not too insane a high price. :P

you can probably make it work, i'm just a little anal when it comes to this kind of stuff. when I have cars in my shop they have to be perfect. so if a little idle problems don't bother you then go for it.

I fully understand that.. it is good to be a perfectionist.

We'll let you know how it turns out :-)

Yup... started playing with the throttle linkage this weekend. When swapping to the 2GNT throtle cam, make you sure you don't dill out the center fully, or too oval, you need to catch the lip on the butterfly rod. Now I'm getting creative with it, and I think the end result will be better anyway, for throttle stops and butterfly movement. I'll keep you posted on it.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Just to jump in here, would having a dual TB setup possibly provide a more balanced power distribution? I was think that if tuned correctly that it would pulse more air into the engine, Lets say you have cylinder 1 and 3 connected to the same TB, when cylinder 1 is closed it will produce a slight increase in air pressure and create a good wave pattern all the way up to the air horn which if timed correctly cylinder 3 can take advantage of when that valve opens very shortly after cyl. 1 closed. I would imagine this kinda of tuning would work over a broader range then with a quad TB setup and tuned runners and maybe give more HP. Any thoughts?

what you are talking about would be like tuning the intake like a 4-2-1 header does on the exhaust. with tuned runner lengths for the pulses you could get good power that way, but it would take some research and what not.

Yeah basically a reversed flow 4-2-1 header only without the 1 part. I personally think it would be easier to tune since you dont have to focus directly on the wave reflections and can just try and get the pressure buildup to be timed correctly for when it opens and then worry about wave reflections for right before the valve closes. Only thing is that the number 1 cylinder is going to open a lot longer after 3 closes then the other way around so 1 and 2 may not get as much of this pressure charge but there gotta be a way around it. I may look into having it work off cylinders 1-2 and 3-4 then have the runners be a little longer to account for the increased wait time. I figure using a 40mm TB for both cylinders would be fine. This would work best with long duration cams that arent closed for very long and open very close to each other. Any more thoughts?
Brent

If doing dual TB I would suggest a larger TB than 40mm sounds small. probably closer to stock size... maybe in the mid 40mm's range.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

Yeah looking at my calcs I think something like a 46-50mm will do. I dont think anything bigger would be beneficial to RPM's over what the AFX ECU can do, which is my plan. Still have to figure out overlap air flow and such depending on which runner assembly I decide to go with.

>Yeah looking at my calcs I think something like a 46-50mm
>will do. I dont think anything bigger would be beneficial to
>RPM's over what the AFX ECU can do, which is my plan. Still
>have to figure out overlap air flow and such depending on
>which runner assembly I decide to go with.

I'm working on this exact thing for a certain un-named individual. (not for myself)

There isn't a whole lot of room to go to a dual throttle body setup if you utilize the lower intake manifold.

The optimal is 4 throttle bodies.. 1 TB will work just about as good as 2 tb's.. but getting 1-4 and 2-3 on equal length runners will be no easy task..

When i'm done with the intake manifold.. we'll see how it performs on the dyno..

I've always from the beginning said that the intake manifold is the biggest reason these cars aren't faster.. they are tuned WAY WAY low (aka.. at about 10mph.. put the car in 5th and it will lug itself to just about anywhere)

ever wonder why the neon is rated 150hp?.. or why they can hit low 14's with the same simple bolt-ons.. it's all the intake manifold getting in the way.. it's tuned totally wrong for what everyone here uses our car for.. which is driving the snot out of..

-- WheatKing

>I've always from the beginning said that the intake manifold
>is the biggest reason these cars aren't faster.. they are
>tuned WAY WAY low (aka.. at about 10mph.. put the car in 5th
>and it will lug itself to just about anywhere)
>
>ever wonder why the neon is rated 150hp?.. or why they can hit
>low 14's with the same simple bolt-ons.. it's all the intake
>manifold getting in the way.. it's tuned totally wrong for
>what everyone here uses our car for.. which is driving the
>snot out of..
>
>-- WheatKing

AMEN, hense my need for quad TB's.




15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

if the neon intake mani is anything like the one on my 420a SOHC Breeze (which i'm sure they are identical).. then it's not tuned for any higher RPM then the eclipse one.. the runners on my breeze were INSANELY long.. I atributed the higher HP rating to the straigter design of the exhaust since it went straight out the back and didn't have the extra two bends from going around the motor. plus you don't have the header heat soaking the whole motor and intake system.

having the header in front and intake in back is the stupidest common design i've ever seen on cars. atleast were performance is concerned.

There is a difference of 2.5 inches or so in runner length between the Neon intake mani and the 2GNT mani. The biggest reason that they are faster is that they weigh a lot less then our pigs...
-=B-=

>There is a difference of 2.5 inches or so in runner length
>between the Neon intake mani and the 2GNT mani. The biggest
>reason that they are faster is that they weigh a lot less then
>our pigs...
>-=B-=

so the neon/cloud car one is like 2.5" longer right? hehe. cause the 2gnt one looks hella short compared to the intake mani from my breeze.

Yeah its occurred to me that getting the 1-4 runners connected around the 2-3 will be interesting. If you didnt do it this way only 2 cylinders would get this theoretical pressure boost so you'd have to take half if not more off the boost percentage. I didnt plan on doing anything with the lower mani, it doesnt leave a lot of room to tune and work with like a custom steel tube runner design. Hopefully it works out good for you.

The Neon's runners are shorter, there is also some conture to the plenum that helps direct airflow to the runners. But there is that goofy 90 degree bend for the TB.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

a bit off topic, but a friend of mine is planning on putting 4 individual Moda TB's on his H22 Prelude, and running split piping out of his front mount (it's turbo) into each individual one. I dunno if he'd pull it off, or if it'll even be worth it. But he's got the money to do it, and I think it's a cool idea anyway. I'll let you know how it turns out for him.

in a setup where you are going to have to 'box' the intake piping from 1 up to 4 (for the TB's from the intercooler) it won't be very constructive to have quad TB's.. kinda defeats the purpose.

Not so. Check these pics from HRC's drag neon. What do you see?

http://www.heavenz-not-0verflowing.com/pics/nopifinals/

Specifically, this one:

^ exactly what I was thinking. Don't you have a better pic with the manifold portion off showing the TBs right there? (yes I know I didn't look through the link) Bt trying to remember.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

No.. and its not a manifold, that's their air-to-water FMIC. The IC outlets into that sealed top, with 4 velocity stacks contained within, one for each TB.

Pretty f'n neat. MUCH easier to do on a Neon head, for sure.

ahh yes.. forgot about that. I stand corrected.

http://www.injector.com/fuelmanagement.php

hmm now if you could flip the rail around... how much does that badboy cost though?

http://phoenix.asog.net/viewtopic.php?t=48463


:thumbsup

Beutiful. I'm not sure if I would have cast the adapter, seems like alot more work than just machining...but yeah - that is a nice setup. Very nice setup.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

So here's the question...

This week I finally start fab'ing my custom Quad TB setup...
It looks like I'll be able to sell them for around $750 or so...

How many of you would pay $750 for a Quad TB setup?
This will be a custom setup for the 420A... and will be a complete plug and play system...

Let me know, I'll give more details as and when I have the first ones made... This is all custom made, no recycled motorcycle parts...:thumbsup

Lee.

http://www.centroidcnc.com

as long as the air is filtered i would be interested! :thumbsup but only after someone dynos one...dont wanna drop $750 bones for nothing. Build one and dyno it and test it on ur car and let us know if we would even want it. If this gives better gains then the indy manifold then it will just be a debate about the price...pay $250 dollars for uniquness and a lil more hp or just go with the indy and still be pretty unique and save $250...hmmmm

Now is it a complete manifold runners and all? or a bolt onto the stock lower plenum?



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

The first version will bolt onto the existing runners...

All will become clear....

Im going to say that $750 for just a bolt on piece is too much!! If you can make the fully plumbed vacuum box, custom TB's, and make a custom tubular runner set with the same injector placement with gains of more than 33%(the increase in price compared to the indy) over the indy then it would be worth it. If you cant make that profitable then maybe you should stick with motorcycle parts of some kind or charge $500. You will get better power out of custom runners anyways!