Hey guys, I have been bumping around the board for a while, and just recently stumbled into the Advanced Tuning section. I have finally found precisely the discussions I was searching for across many different sites for DSM's. You guys really know your stuff, and while I understand most of the physics and science talk, the actual real life applications to DSM's is where I am at a loss, since I am still running stock!

My Durango Copper Eclipse GS and I are heading for a long road, which is a good thing. I love my car. But it needs to be...faster. (I'm sure you guys can relate.)

What I want is a general discussion/debate (arguments are welcome, as they promote thinking!) over a ground-up buildup for what I'd like to consider the ultimate 2G 420A engine bay. I'm going to start buying pieces one at a time, and eventually end up replacing everything underneath. What I want to do is get a feel for where to start most importantly-inside the engine and work my way out, or start at the tips (intake, exhaust) and work my way inside. I want to buy everything once, and keep it as I move up. No buying medium quality and then having to upgrade to be compatible with a future upgrade.

Everyone had their opinions, so fire away!

And yes, someday I'll turbo, but for now, I want to go as far as I can N/A, then trade the exhaust and intake for a forced induction.

Thanks in advance, you guys know what youre talking about!

well first u have to decide 2 things, 2.0 or 2.4 motor

next is what compression 10.5:1 is good for n/a hard to tune for turbo quite hard actually,

so 8.5:1 for turbo or 10.5:1 for hi comp n/a

then we can move on to rest of the motor build up,

Bill

Also if you thinking of even high compression then 10:5:1 I would look into raising the deck lid to support possible 12:5:1 compression and stop piston slap...you most likely would need to do this because i believe the block is not tall enough to support such high comp


Performance: Stuff that makes my car run better or go faster

Looks: Stock because looks doesnt make my car go faster or run better

Weight Reduction: CF Hood, No A/C or Powersteering Accessories, No rear interior

Ok, I knew you guys would be good help for this. I'd like to build the car up as much as I can NA, and eventually add a turbo and build that up. Aside from things that would end up being replaced (headers, intake), what can I build the motor to (compression, etc) and still see worthwhile NA gains, while not wasting money on things that will be useless when I turbo. So yes, I'll buy things like an intake and headers, and eventually have to sell them off. But the biggest thing I don't want to do is perform internal work and have it only benefit me if I stay NT. Bottom line, how would YOU build an engine knowing eventually it would be NT, but wanted performance gains worthwhile now?

Not to be rude, but the whole concept seems like a bad idea and not very advanced. What is the absolute point in building a car twice just to spend twice as much money? Also, no such thing as 'ultimate' setup. That would be just an opinion. You will get a million answers. That is also asking for parts listing. Also not very advanced. It is easier to simply look for someone who is already fast with a setup similar to what you want and discuss it with them or just copy it. These questions can be answered by any general automotive theory and design not specific to the 420A. A search would also answer a lot.

>next is what compression 10.5:1 is good for n/a hard to tune
>for turbo quite hard actually,
>
>so 8.5:1 for turbo or 10.5:1 for hi comp n/a

I'm going to have to disagree here Bill, 10.5:1 is a good/mild NA compression ratio. I feel 11.5:1 being a good street/strip ratio, and 12.5:1 plus if you want to go all the way, you best know how to tune and have timing control(key).

It would harder to tune a 11.5:1 turbo, so if in the future is a turbo don't go above 10.5:1. Stan ran 10.5:1 fine for quite a while at 10.5:1. With anything don't get boost happy and crank it up without the proper fuel and timing control, but that advise goes for a lower compression turbo as well.



15.9 @ 86.7mph

Injen CAI, 55mm TB, P&P Intake, Crower Cams, Hooker Header, ERT/Catco Cat, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, Crane Ign Amp, S-AFC

I never said it was impossible, but compared to running 8.5:1 for the average user who wants to just pour gas in it and have it be fast 10.5:1 and above is not gonna be my first choice to give them,

I at one point was going to do 10.5:1 turbo on my 2.0 took a long time researching it but, decided 8.5:1 and 2.4 sounded better to me =)


u can do 10.5:1 and then turbo it but u better know your stuff before u even try, better know how a motor works and how a complete turbo system works before id tell u to try it,

if u want a fast car tll u got turbo get some cams and 8.8:1 je's run a UDP, intake, full exhuast and think about having the head ported and polished,

a SOHC neon tranny and a LSD wouldn't be a bad idea

bigger throttle body those things is what i would play with while waiting for turbo, even though u chould save all your money and do a rebuild and turbo setup for about the same as a rebuild and bolt ons

Bill

do they even make 11.5:1 pistons for our car, or are they special order?

>a SOHC neon tranny and a LSD wouldn't be a bad idea
Hey Bill these bolt up^?? If so How? the rear mount and side mount look different. I've been looking at them in the junk yard for sometime as I have everything I need for my swap for my AT Talon (Dead Donor Car no motor no tranny) except the tranny and how well do the perform and are they strong. Remember I'll be turbo as soon as my manifold gets sent out and I already have many mods. Also what clutch do you get the neon or the eclipse as I already bought an eclipse LUK clutch for $125 and don't want to buy another.

Also for the original question all the stuff I did to my car made a very slow AT talon into a faster AT talon the only thing slowing me down is lack of tuning and my 1900 stall torque converter. There are very few cars that can beat me in the 30-65 mph range. I am also able to go turbo with my mods. If you need help I'd be glad to help even walking you through the install of most of it.

95' ESI AT
CAI, Greddy EVO Cat-Back(Sounds like an extremely fast V8 at idle), Cat Hollowed, P&P TB,Shift Kit, Crower Stage 1 Cams, Fidanzas Cam gears, Msd ign. and wires, Bosch +4's
3" drop, 17" racing Hart's, Best Run 18.7 @ 86 mph, tunning needed bad, Coming soon MT swap and custom TURBO setup

dinos running one right now...

swap the bell housing to the 2gnt one bolt up the eclipse/neaon/pt clutch they are alll the same the only one that differs if the srt4

the 3.55 tranny gives u much taller gears then the 3.94 a very nice thing for turbo cars because u dont have to shift every half second when drag racing...

i wouldn't say they are any stronger, justa better gear ratio


it should bolt right up to the brackets...

I must agree that this isn't what I would think of as advanced, but since I've been going roughly the same rout I'll pass on what I've learned. The intake and Exhaust are a fine idea, but don't spend big bucks on a full AEM cold air with bypass if you're jusr going to ditch it at some point. A 2.5" exhaust all the way back will work great for a turbo or N/A app., as long as you don't wanna make anything over 300hp. I'm running a Buschur exhaust and a test pipe that have (when coupled together) given me noticable top-end gain. I bored out my TB to roughlt 57/58mm as well as having the intake plennum matched. Gude performance has an array of packages for the N/A Eclipse in terms of top end parts. Ported/Polished head, shaved .020, 5-way grind on stainless valves, and Bullfrog cams. The cams are quite street friendly and will compliment a medium power turbo setup well. At this point I'm adding the turbo. Kit or custom becomes the question here. Custom can cost you a lot less (or more) for the same power as a kit like HRC, but there's a great deal more thought and work involved where a custom job is concerned. Exciting to some, overwhelming to others. Upgrade fuel pump, injectors, regulator possibly, and think about some sort of piggyback fuel controller. Gauges are a must. On a custom setup you should have at LEAST Air/Fuel, Boost, and Pyrometer gauges. Pick your turbo and start building! Don't forget to upgrade your suspension, brakes, and think about a solid wheel/tire combo to compliment the extra power gain.

Your all crazy..except the ones who like me.