over the wintertime I want to do the 2.4 swap but I have no money to turbo, so I'd do it the all-motor way. Would there be anything different I would have to do electronically or fuel-wise as compared to a turbo 2.4? Most guys who do the swap already have turbo setups and the supporting stuff (S-AFC and Vortech SFMU and so on) so I don't think this topic has come up for discussion much.
My own intuition says that I would probably need the ECU and fuel pump from the 2.4 donor because bigger motor needs more air & fuel then the 2.0's stock supporting parts will provide. My guess is that I just use the ECU (or screw messing with an ECU and just get a Megasquirt while my car is blown apart for five months), grab a S-AFC for tuning, and a bigger fuel pump and SFMU for safety, but I haven't done the swap and other guys here have. What do you have to say?

ive been trying to get driggs to go all motor 2.4 forever!

the guys over at forward motion can even make you custom allum rods with custom pistons for any CR you want (less weight is always good) or even the steel 6.16 rods i went with slightly more weight. 200+whp is EASYYYY. you know the phrase 'no replacement for displacement' well this applies to NA car's mostly imo, same in this situation. you just cant beat a longer stroke. lol. anyway with custom rods and pistons and obviously a fuel management to control spark and fuel up in the higher rpm's you could easily wind it to 9500-10K rpm's....on top of that a neon gearset or something? thats just sick

but no, the stock 2gnt ecu can control the igniton and fuel tables for a 2.4. its actually pretty sweet. just a re-wire of some minor shit and it works. you'd need some 24lbers right off the bet or even raise the idle pressure with the stock injectors but thats not such a grand idea. accel 24's would do just fine. or even 310's...very commin with the neon guys. also an intank isnt such a bad idea either, but im also an advacate of taking care of supporting mods before the big cheese. ya know?

mild cam shafts to keep it streetable, custom pistons/rods, possibly nitrous, fuel management, etc...thats a fuckin mean ass NA 2gnt :thumbsup. and oh...no one has it yet either...so you'd be the first :thumbsup

why is it that the TALON guys push the envelopse the farthest??? muhahah!

edit: the more cc's on the street the better. the more low end torque on the street the better. this is exactly what a 2.4 will do for you. domination.

why mild cams? Crane 0016's all the way. Anything higher and you'll need to run on race gas (if the cr is above 11:1) , or use methanol or propane injection. (NA booster) which wouldnt really be a bad thing imo. Would def run the megasquirt if youre not 97' , as portfueler or 8 injector on an NA doesnt seem like it makes too much sense obviously. Perhaps even E-manage.

For all motor i would sudgest you follow what the guys at neons.org are doing with their 2.4's

i think if i were to setup one from what i see them do

Megasquirt (with megaspark hopefully if they get the hall effect sensor pattern down for neons/eclipses)

Crane #22(they go bigger...), PnP head + 1mm valves (the full head works, btw if you doing head work check out fierro racing. :) )

High compression pistons needed (W Inj. anyone??)

sounds good....i would like to do that

Just that my goal is to be the fastest 2gnt auto so i definitively need turbo :) (wow lofty goal :P )

yeah but you cant run no crane 22's on pump gas. So imo, at most crane 0018's on 11:1 cr, and even then like i said, run methanol injection to raise the pump gas octane level. So in the likelyhood of wanting to go turbo later, run 0016's with 10:5:1 cr at most, with megasquirt, so you can still run a turbo on it as long as its tuned right. (DR1665's futuregoals - the 2.4)

what would be an ideal na setup using the 2.4l that would allow you to use pump gas as well as being streetable?

edit---i just realized how much of a noob that post made me sound like. i apologize for that.

Originally posted by injendsm
what would be an ideal na setup using the 2.4l that would allow you to use pump gas as well as being streetable? edit---i just realized how much of a noob that post made me sound like. i apologize for that.

np, and check my above post for the answer.

so crane 16's on 10.5 compression.........would the afx ecu be a good idea as well? not sure whether or not a safc would be needed. as far as fuel is concerned, how much will it need to be upgraded?

Fuel needs to be upgraded to match the horsepower level I plan on making.. probably not a good idea to push the stock stuff too far (my car is only a '95) and the eventual goal is around 225 wheel horsepower so with around 300 flywheel horsepower (w/an auto trans I think 300 at the flywheel goes with 225 at the wheels) I should run pretty big injectors, 460s even, and then I'd need a Walbro pump for sure to keep up with it. If I go with 460s I'm pretty sure I could get by with the stock ECU since a 100% duty cycle would work. If I get bigger injectors I'd need to mess around with the electronics a bit though, compensate for a lower duty cycle or I'll just flood the motor and run pig rich ...

The thing I am most excited about is stroking this guy out to a 2.6 liter (that would be super-bad-ass). I remember reading somewhere that the 2.4 only has a larger bore then the 2.0 and as such the 2.2 stroker for the 2.0 works on the 2.4 as well to make it 2.6 (but I am probably mistaken since that doesn't sound quite right).

Camshafts are the biggest part of the plan. And since the motor is going to be in pieces anyways, why not get a port 'n' polish? I was looking into Stage 2 cams from Crower since that would give me bad-ass high RPM performance but depending on the whole bottom end deal spinning 10 grand on the stock rods would not be cool (and then I definitely need aftermarket engine management, stand-alone) and my car is auto so I'd have to figure out how to get it to shift at 9,500 instead of 6,400.

How bad-ass would a 2.6 liter all-motor 2GNT be? HOLY HELL I'm pumped for the wintertime.

umm....:wary

well no, the 2.4 has the same bore size as the 2.0. just with a 101mm stroke, thats the major diff. the block is just taller = longer stroke. if i were you though i wouldnt go "2.6"...its not needed, and you wont be able to rip it to 9500 safely, imo. just go with the custom allum rods, 10:1 comp (or even stock 9.6:1 CR if you want) and some crower 2's or 3's. the torque downlow would be VERY fun...but you'll obviously never be as fast as the same motor boosted. there is no sense is going all out NA if you're auto anyway.

manual swap with a 3.55 trans and get a long rod 2.4L with a built head, oversized valves, crankscraper, udp, lightened flywheel, etc. the motor would rev REAL fast being that the internal weights are kept to a minimum with a the allum rods and shorter piston height (fress up some weight, which is always good)

but yea, just a simple .040 overbore is a LARGE 2.4L. a 2.6L motor is a custom stroker and in the end would not be worth it to get both a custom crank, custom rods and pistons. you'll be spending over 5K for what....a slightly broader torque curve?

edit: you wont need anything larger than 310 injectors for an NA 2.4...depends on some mods but you sure as hell dont need gargantuan injectors like on a turbo application. injector sizing is very important, look first at the motor as an airpump...and then figure how much air it pumps and therefore how much fuel it will need...and adjust the injector size accordingly.

How'd Brynden get the 2.6 liter thang done ??
Reading up on old posts, you seem pretty fond of the SRT-4 stock rods :) how would they do in a all-motor application? If they are really as stout as it sounds then they would do as well as aftermarket bits? I see you talking alot about them being forged cracked cap so on but I don't see "aluminum" anywhere which is the buzzword for an all-motor buildup, imo.
Aftermarket pistons for sure. Bore .030 over to clean up all the crap and 10.5 compression is a safe bet. 11.5 takes either a lot of know-how or expensive gasoline. Stock 2.4 pistons might get it done in a pinch but it'd be a waste of effort to not to do it.
2.6 liter is out it seems. $5k is a big chunk of change that I could spend on a manual swap. I would do the swap, but there is no 2GNT parts cars in Canada to help get it done. Next time I see the swap parts in the For Sale I'm gonna have to get on it.
edit: A tranny swap in the for sale section!! A godsend!!

with the stock srt rods you can push up to 500+whp...(proven on an srt-4) but you also keep the 1.48 rod ratio, which isnt good for a high rpm screamer. the alluminum rods i was saying are a custom length you order from forward motion. you can also get billet steel rods in a custom length also with custom pistons. i wouldnt run to high of compression though, without some sort of detonation control that is (water injection, propane, etc)

the stock srt internals wont have that high of a redline. you'd need to throw in some custom shit, but thats just part of the game

edit:

brynden's 2.6 was a custom stroker. custom crank. as in longer than the 2.4's 101mm stroke. my 2.5L is just because of an overbore, lot cheaper that way to milk some cc's out of an already large cc block

get a bike...15k rpms muhaha.

Waaahaa I searched and found my answer. So ya, let's hear more suggestions.
The motor mount... looks easy enough, measure twice cut once ;) found a pic that should be very helpful. I'll have to find some spares so I don't mess up mine. Use aftermarket cams, don't have to mess with the cam magnet, rewire the injector pack 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-1 .. all stock sensors fit right on... I should probably relocated my battery and take out my front bumper support too to get rid of the 2GNT's nose-heavy balance (but I do like that sure-footed turn in although lift-off oversteer is the suck) .. coilovers .. some new rims .. shave teh spoiler .. touch up the paint .. fix the dents
daaamn I am pumped for wintertime!!

Originally posted by BumpinTalon
Use aftermarket cams, don't have to mess with the cam magnet

lol...i dont know where on earth you got this from. do you know WHY the cam angle magnet needs to be rotated? lets start there

and the MM...i already have it. it is actually very easy yes. i'll probly set up a group buy but i dunno

Originally posted by turbo8u

Originally posted by BumpinTalon Use aftermarket cams, don't have to mess with the cam magnet

lol...i dont know where on earth you got this from. do you know WHY the cam angle magnet needs to be rotated? lets start there and the MM...i already have it. it is actually very easy yes. i'll probly set up a group buy but i dunno

As I see it..
the 2.4 cam doesn't work with the 2GNT ECU
the 2.0 cam does work with the 2GNT ECU
and either one will work in a 2.4 block.But if the firing order is changed (as it seems to be judging by the ECU rewire) then the cam would have to be rotated to match... ahah I see what you are saying now. I should write this shit down.

Originally posted by turbo8u

Originally posted by BumpinTalon Use aftermarket cams, don't have to mess with the cam magnet

lol...i dont know where on earth you got this from. do you know WHY the cam angle magnet needs to be rotated? lets start there and the MM...i already have it. it is actually very easy yes. i'll probly set up a group buy but i dunno

im in for a group buy on MM imo.

Originally posted by BumpinTalon
Use aftermarket cams, don't have to mess with the cam magnet, rewire the injector pack 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-1 ..

that's what you think
unless you could specify to the manufacturer of the cam that you want a 420a front exhaust cam, compatible with a 2.4 crank sensor timming and also compatible to the timming of the 2gnt computer

also for your tanny swap , sebring and avenger parts are easier to find, and you could take any neon tranny but you will need the bellhousing of the 2gnt

Alain

Originally posted by injendsm
so crane 16's on 10.5 compression.........

Crane 16 are not considered a hot cam once in a 2.4
the specs of the 16 were made for 2.0 of displacement
when you compared them to the stock 2.0 cams you see a big gain in duration and lift

but you forgot that the stock 2.4 cams have more duration than the stock 2.0 even if they do lack on the lift side, that was a choice made by Chrysler however

now compare those crane #16 made for 2.0 to the stock 2.4 and you realise that once bolted in a 2.4 engine they will act and work like a set of #12 on a 2.0, more mild and tame than your goal

a set of #20 made for a 2.0 would work more like a true set of #16 made for a 2.4

Alain

Originally posted by alain95i4
now compare those crane #16 made for 2.0 to the stock 2.4 and you realise that once bolted in a 2.4 engine they will act and work like a set of #12 on a 2.0, more mild and tame than your goal a set of #20 made for a 2.0 would work more like a true set of #16 made for a 2.4 Alain

this is why I got #18 cams for my turbo 2.4L.
#16 cams for my na 2.0L.

was told on an na, anything #18 and above, you need to raise cr and run higher octane. This is where that 'harder to tune' theory stems from when comparing high cr 2gnt car to forced induction 2gnt. Look at Cream420a; He's running race gas daily and having issues keeping it in tune.

Originally posted by Initial DSM

Originally posted by alain95i4 now compare those crane #16 made for 2.0 to the stock 2.4 and you realise that once bolted in a 2.4 engine they will act and work like a set of #12 on a 2.0, more mild and tame than your goal a set of #20 made for a 2.0 would work more like a true set of #16 made for a 2.4 Alain

this is why I got #18 cams for my turbo 2.4L. #16 cams for my na 2.0L. was told on an na, anything #18 and above, you need to raise cr and run higher octane. This is where that 'harder to tune' theory stems from when comparing high cr 2gnt car to forced induction 2gnt. Look at Cream420a; He's running race gas daily and having issues keeping it in tune.

Does that work For a N/A too? ((I got #18 cams for my turbo 2.4L))

Right now I am building a dreaming head to swap it on the 2.4L block.
Should i Put the #18?
BTW WHat alain said makes a lot of sense!

Here i have a list of parts for the 2.4L swap:
http://www.dsmtuner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129612
here it goes:

Parts u may need:
-The 2.4 L block (with everything inside, even the oil panel)
-The 2.4 L head COVER (some people say that u might use it but *** said: It won't fit) ---All this if u want that ur head cover say 2.4L Dohc and not Dohc 2.0L. It is an easy thing, but an important detail.
-U might want to buy an AFC to manage the extra displacement. I guess if u are going in real power u might need it.
-Pistons, rods if u want to replace the stock ones and u want to feel the engine better.
-You need better injectors (I guess 400cc)
-U need a custom passenger mount (PITA is what some people still call it)
-The oil pan from the 2.4L not the 2,0L
-Water pump (as a precaution)
-Timing belt tensioner I know there are two types: but I am not sure which one is the best. Somebody say that any of those can be used it doesn't matter. I don’t know about this so correct me)
-I know u need the 2.4L corner bolts (4) of the block
-Under drive pulleys (if u wants)
-Pt cruiser alternator bracket
-U might need to have a bigger T/B to breathe better (the bigger the better)
-All the gaskets!!

Parts to be done:
-Turn the pcm(90degree) the cam magnet (I don’t know if it is clockwise)
-Remove the balancers if u want to rev more than 6,200rpm (U might feel vibration but who cares)
-U might need to get an aftermarket cpu if u are having problem with the fuel cut.
-Cut the hood sub frame because the engine is 1 inch taller or just get a tall hood.
-Dipstick need to be re-routing (I have no idea what the @#$% this is)
-The down pipe need to have an extra inch more (weld machine)
-Part of the oil pan need to be removed and welded a part to seal the hole left (because of the lower frame of the car)
-I think u need to create a bracket for the P/S and A/C (there are option that I dunnot yet, maybe with the kit)
-Fix the problem with the lower radiator house (easy I guess)
-Rewire some cables (I don’t know which ones)

Parts that u need from ur car:
Head block
Transmission
PCM
Alternator
P/S
A/C

I hope this helps everybody. I don’t know want to be responsible for whatever happens to the engine or your car. I am just a guy, who recollected the info, and decided to post it to help someone else that needs.

Also, I want to say that please let it be checked by the expert before any bad comments!

BTW I Iam willing to do the swap As long as the swap kit shows up!

Later,
TITO

Originally posted by titogs95
Does that work For a N/A too? ((I got #18 cams for my turbo 2.4L)) Right now I am building a dreaming head to swap it on the 2.4L block. Should i Put the #18? BTW WHat alain said makes a lot of sense!

Yeah. When in doubt, just head over to the Neon forums, and read up on what they use when they do their 2.4L swaps. Most NA guys are running 22's and above, with crazy compression (most I heard was 18:1 ) Though thats custom work so pretty pricey, and not sure on the streetability, so I'd stay with 18's or crower stage III's and def raise the stock compression if your'e staying NA. I'm at 9:1 boosted.

Theres an automatic 97' Neon w/ 2.4 swap turboed running 10.2 @ 143mph

Originally posted by Initial DSM

Originally posted by titogs95 Does that work For a N/A too? ((I got #18 cams for my turbo 2.4L)) Right now I am building a dreaming head to swap it on the 2.4L block. Should i Put the #18? BTW WHat alain said makes a lot of sense!

Yeah. When in doubt, just head over to the Neon forums, and read up on what they use when they do their 2.4L swaps. Most NA guys are running 22's and above, with crazy compression (most I heard was 18:1 ) Though thats custom work so pretty pricey, and not sure on the streetability, so I'd stay with 18's or crower stage III's and def raise the stock compression if your'e staying NA. I'm at 9:1 boosted. Theres an automatic 97' Neon w/ 2.4 swap turboed running 10.2 @ 143mph

Thanks for the info!, Did somebody check the list I Posted?



http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/image.php?u=27413&dateline=1083041166

"Why can not be easy do the 2.4L swap????"

"I want a powerful 4 Cyl N/T car!!!!"

Originally posted by alain95i4

Originally posted by injendsm so crane 16's on 10.5 compression.........

Crane 16 are not considered a hot cam once in a 2.4 the specs of the 16 were made for 2.0 of displacement when you compared them to the stock 2.0 cams you see a big gain in duration and lift but you forgot that the stock 2.4 cams have more duration than the stock 2.0 even if they do lack on the lift side, that was a choice made by Chrysler however now compare those crane #16 made for 2.0 to the stock 2.4 and you realise that once bolted in a 2.4 engine they will act and work like a set of #12 on a 2.0, more mild and tame than your goal a set of #20 made for a 2.0 would work more like a true set of #16 made for a 2.4 Alain

ahhhhhh alrite that makes sense.

Ok guys leme explain why you need to rotate the cam magnet...the magnet works with a hall sender sensor that controls the injector firing timing ...will be off causing a CEL and the worse part is that your injectors will not be firing at the optimal point for best power/fuel economy, and idle will be at best like a carb setup...

Now if you ran an UMS(megasquirt standalone with spark + WB02) i dont see why you would need to do any of the rewiring, me wating for UMS to see if i make the jump....oh and checking with the neon guys who are trying to addapt the MS to our hall effect sensor patterns so the MS spark works without the little crank sensor addapter.. (if im going MS im doing it all the way...not just as a fuel controler)

Its just taking a little more time for UMS to develop