Ive been on and off about this for a while, but now that I have a job Im planning on going thru with it.

So far, my mods are:
OBX 4-1 header, ceramic coated
Magnaflow cat
Borla 2.5" exhaust
Full CAI
MSD pack and wires
F1 racing clutch

Mods for the near future:
Crower cams, possibly valve kit and cam gears
55-60mm tb, possibly spacer also
UDP


Im just looking for some feedback to the mods I have now, how they will react to the mods to come, and some specifics such as should I go with crower 1s or 2s. I read Stars long post in the Cams thread, and it really made me rethink what cams I want. I want to make some decent power from this car, but I would like it to remain streetable, and for the most part reliable. Also any other suggestions, other than a turbo kit, are completely welcome for mods I should consider.

All that sounds good, if it were i'd do it but with a NO2 on the side just to make it more fun, a 75 shot seem really good and with a good tune y think you could do decent power, plus try and take out everything in the car thats not necesary. Our cars are really heavy, try to gut the back so the front gets most of the weight that helps with the traction..

If you arent going to do a good port and polish, then higher end cams wont be worth it IMO.

Id go with a Crane 12, after reading the Cams discussion, the Crane 12's seem to be an awesome choice for street and low end mods. Either cam you want to get springs. Bullett showed me that the Crower 4G63 valve springs work great, and they are about 85 dollars from Race Engineering.

Do the UDP and TB ASAP, you have no idea what your missing! Between my 60mm Modern TB and the UDP, the car feels more free. Very fun.

second the TB and UDP! :thumbsup

also if its DD with a little "spirited driving" id look into some littel mods outside the engine bay.
Symbroski shift kit and either a brass or rollerbeari1ng cable endlink kit will make shifting much more crisp
add in a B&M short shifter and your money! you'll love it

then grab a few handling mods such as strut braces and sway bar upgrades and you will feel as though you have a totally different DD.


as this is a DD, if you can find a spare head and intake to work with and build outside the car it will minimise your downtime to just a weekend head swap then you can sell the other, or save it as a backup

Ya know what I love about this site, everyone tells me exactly what Im asking for without telling me Im "wasting my time" with my car. Its awesome.

Ive wondered about running Nitrous before, but Im not sure if I trust it. Ive seen alot of videos of intake mani's blowing up from improper use. But maybe after I get all the things I really want Ill look into it.

Ill probably buy the TB and UDP next then, and I really cant wait to feel the car after that.

And foggy thanks for the advice on the head man. As long as I can save up the money and find a head for it, Ill have it ported/polished and install my cams and springs on that.

So would the crower 2s really respond well to a port and polish? Where should I get that done at, just ask any reputable machine shop?

Thanks for all the help.

Wow I just checked out modern perfomance and the TB is pretty expensive. I saw one on ebay for like $160, so do they just pop up on there every once in a while? And the crane 12's are pretty much the same as crower 2s right?

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Wow I just checked out modern perfomance and the TB is pretty expensive. I saw one on ebay for like $160, so do they just pop up on there every once in a while? And the crane 12's are pretty much the same as crower 2s right?

Accoring the research done by others, yes the 12's are kinda like Crower 2's.

I bought my Modern TB used. Click my sig link for a Jeep TB article, PM me if you want to talk, I have some core TB's if your interested.

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Ya know what I love about this site, everyone tells me exactly what Im asking for without telling me Im "wasting my time" with my car. Its awesome. Ive wondered about running Nitrous before, but Im not sure if I trust it. Ive seen alot of videos of intake mani's blowing up from improper use. But maybe after I get all the things I really want Ill look into it. Ill probably buy the TB and UDP next then, and I really cant wait to feel the car after that. And foggy thanks for the advice on the head man. As long as I can save up the money and find a head for it, Ill have it ported/polished and install my cams and springs on that. So would the crower 2s really respond well to a port and polish? Where should I get that done at, just ask any reputable machine shop? Thanks for all the help.

You want to find a shop that specializes in 4 cylinder heads. Just ask around your area.

You're wasting your time with your car, man!



Just wanted to make you feel at more at home :wavy

Nitrous is great, and if you stick with a 75 shot or less you shouldn't have any problems with any of it IF installed correctly. I ran nitrous for a long time and its fun and I think worth the money. The biggest shot I ran on my car was a 150 shot and the first time I did the fuel pill was too large and I had an intake backfire from puddling I think(it messed up my map sensor and blew the filter off of my intake(AEM V2)), thats the only time that I had a problem with it. One big thing I recomend with a nirous kit is a bottle heater, makes a HUGE difference!

Well Ive started the process of making all this magic happen, and so far I think I found a head to do some porting and polishing on, just need to tell him what I think its worth and have the cash to get it.

Im planning on taking this head to a guy who owns a shop who used to drag funny cars to do the work on it. After I get it ported/polished will it need bigger valves? Or should it keep the same valves and just flow more? Just wanting to make sure so I dont set myself back.

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
After I get it ported/polished will it need bigger valves? Or should it keep the same valves and just flow more?

not necessarily, just because you get a p/p dosen't necessitate larger valves outright, they are optional and dependent upon on all the other factors of the build. i.e. your final goals, which cams, and how your p/p is done (street, strip)

I definately would like to keep the stock valves then. I want this to be my daily driver that can haul some ass when needed. And just to prove everyone wrong who bag on the 420A all the time. I have quite a bit of faith in this engine. Im also planning on keeping the stock head so that, if needed, I can go back to stock everything in the head.

The only snag I can see right now is finding some parts. Im pretty much getting a bare head, Im getting p/p done to it and checked for flatness and such. I need to find valve seals/guides, valve springs and retainers for a stage 2 cam, and a distributor to find cams for under the $500 or more Ive seen everywhere. I heard you can get them for $440 or less at some places.

Also.....Has anyone ever tried the cheap UDPs from ebay? Im not looking to spend $200+ on a chunk of aluminum..Either that or if someone has one for sale.

Let me add to mix one more thing - Light weight wheels.

I have done many of the bolt-ons you've discussed, and out of all the bolt-ons I felt the most pickup from a UDP and the MP TB, but once I put on very light wheels it blew all the other boltons out of the water. I think my superleggeras weigh ~ 16lbs.

I have a MP 60mmTB ready to ship, and an unorthodox UDP I may let go of soon too. I can do better than the $160 you found on ebay

Originally posted by ez
my superleggeras weigh ~ 16lbs.

i will second these!
they are awesome wheels, good price point for performance too.
every year one of the "tuner" mags puts out a lightweight wheel guide, flip through that and see what ya like.

Im most likely getting the TB here soon from ez. I was looking at Modern Performances Website. They have Crane Cams there for $429 + shipping and all. Is there any distributor where I could get Crowers for around the same price or see some reviews on them. I was dead set on the Crowers but if the Cranes have as much use and favorability as Im being led to believe I may just get them. Also, I couldnt find the springs for around $80, all I saw was over $200...

I just got done doing some research on Cam choices.

Advertised duration - Duration at .50"

Stock 420A cams:

222/220 - 172/168

Crower:

Stage 1: 234/238 - 184/184
Stage 2: 241/241 - 196/194
Stage 3: 254/250 - 205/200

Crane Cams:

10s: 242/242 - 200/200
12s: 246/246 - 204/204
14s: Turbo applications
16s: 250/250 - 208/208
18s: Holy shit


Based on this, it seems entry level cranes are already at crowers 2s. So I really have no idea what I want now. 12s seem kind of high. Less than 10* away from crower 3 which are race/heavy mod grinds. It would be alot different if I found some vids of sound and gains from the mid-range cams.

Basically, Im looking for that little lope at Idle that says "Theres something behind that", but doesnt threaten to stall. And I would also like a nasty growl from my intake as well as a "Not your average 420A" pull to it. Hm....any takers?

Well, the crower 2's are a tried and true cam for our cars. I have taken the 2's up to 175whpish. With your set-up I don't think they will be that much of an idle problem. I ran them with my daily and a Jeep 60mm with no problem. Idle was a little rough but not bad. I think others can chime in on that. Also, as I recollect, the ramp speed on the crowers was not as sharp as the Cranes.

The Neon boys seem to like the Cranes a lot more than the Crowers. I just get a little skeptical on the research behind the Cranes, in that, they use identical lift and duration numbers throughout (BTW where did you get those Crane numbers? Are you sure they are not Neon cam numbers?). I can't see why you would have the smaller exhaust valves using as much lift as the larger intake valves. As well as, the same duration. Even the stockers show a difference (and the man who designed our heads had an idea of what he what doing, lol) Its just a little thing, but it makes me wonder.

As for springs, this is where I get mine;

http://www.raceeng.com/p-7072-valve-springmitsu-4g63.aspx

(ignore the 4g63, the springs work, but not the retainers etc.)

Originally posted by bullettdsm
Well, the crower 2's are a tried and true cam for our cars. I have taken the 2's up to 175whpish. With your set-up I don't think they will be that much of an idle problem. I ran them with my daily and a Jeep 60mm with no problem. Idle was a little rough but not bad. I think others can chime in on that. Also, as I recollect, the ramp speed on the crowers was not as sharp as the Cranes. The Neon boys seem to like the Cranes a lot more than the Crowers. I just get a little skeptical on the research behind the Cranes, in that, they use identical lift and duration numbers throughout (BTW where did you get those Crane numbers? Are you sure they are not Neon cam numbers?). I can't see why you would have the smaller exhaust valves using as much lift as the larger intake valves. As well as, the same duration. Even the stockers show a difference (and the man who designed our heads had an idea of what he what doing, lol) Its just a little thing, but it makes me wonder. As for springs, this is where I get mine; http://www.raceeng.com/p-7072-valve-springmitsu-4g63.aspx (ignore the 4g63, the springs work, but not the retainers etc.)

I got the info off Cranes website under the 420A eclipse cams. Link: http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&lvl=4&prt=2036
The only thing is it says 90-99 eclipse 420A. Hopefully just a misprint. But I was also concerned about the intake and exhaust durations being the same. The stock cams and crowers have smaller exhaust durations.

Thanks for the heads up though. Where did you get your crowers from? I know they sometimes have them on Ebay from reputable dealers.


Also, Im pretty sure I talked to you at the DSM shootout this year for a few minutes. It was the day at Buschurs shop. You were getting that crazy N/A beast off the trailer and me and my buddy walked over. I think you were talking to Todd (vx100) at the time and I asked about cams or something and Todd brought me over to see his car. Anyways, it was good talking to you for the time that I did.

Wow, if this is the Stage 2 cam for our cars, I found where Im getting it from!!!

http://www.raceeng.com/p-7042-crwr-cammitsu-420a-dohc-stage-2.aspx

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Wow, if this is the Stage 2 cam for our cars, I found where Im getting it from!!! http://www.raceeng.com/p-7042-crwr-cammitsu-420a-dohc-stage-2.aspx

Um.....yowzers. Yes those are the Mitsu Crower 2's. That is quite the price. Obviously you know that I have dealt with them on quite a few occasions and they are on the up and up. I get some fast responses from them. Um, $358? GTFO. My lowball site (the site I use to pull the lowest prices out there. I do not use them except to price out) sells them for $450. Typo or not, try to get them for that, lol.

Wow.

Now im debating to get Konis like I planned, or buy the Crower 2's.

Crower 2s are about the best mod for the 420A, imo. If you've got the hardware to support them, they would go superbly with a mild street port on a street car. In fact, I might go so far as to suggest my ideal street 2GNT build list:

- Ebay shortie intake w/ K&N or AEM dryflow filter.
- Crower 2 cams, required lash adjusters/followers (w/ Fidanza gears, if budget allowed)
- Pacesetter 4-2-1 header (in the absence of a true LTH)
- GST catback
- UDP

That's where I would call it a day. My next step up would be very mild headwork (mostly clean up, port matching, etc.) and a bump in compression via pistons.

My recommendation for all out race? See bullettdsm, above, add ITB set up, maybe improved, 2nd generation LTH w/ merge collector consideration.

Then supercharge the sumbitch. :P

Originally posted by DR1665
.......add ITB set up, maybe improved, 2nd generation LTH w/ merge collector consideration.

All things happen in good time.......



Oh yeah, I would add MSnS as a critical component for a street build.

Keep us posted on the cams. At that price, even I would consider new
:order

Originally posted by DR1665
Crower 2s are about the best mod for the 420A, imo. If you've got the hardware to support them, they would go superbly with a mild street port on a street car. In fact, I might go so far as to suggest my ideal street 2GNT build list: - Ebay shortie intake w/ K&N or AEM dryflow filter. - Crower 2 cams, required lash adjusters/followers (w/ Fidanza gears, if budget allowed) - Pacesetter 4-2-1 header (in the absence of a true LTH) - GST catback - UDP That's where I would call it a day. My next step up would be very mild headwork (mostly clean up, port matching, etc.) and a bump in compression via pistons. My recommendation for all out race? See bullettdsm, above, add ITB set up, maybe improved, 2nd generation LTH w/ merge collector consideration. Then supercharge the sumbitch. :P

So pretty much I should replace my whole valve train with these cams? I was already planning on getting the valve springs and possibly retainers.

And Ive been telling everyone basically what you just said. I have all the small bolt on mods already. As I said Im getting the UDP for christmas and the TB from ez. After the cams and headwork,......Im pretty much done. I mean this car still has to be my daily driver. And it would be nice to have some money in my wallet for a change.

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
I mean this car still has to be my daily driver.

Just don't go too crazy with the headwork (porting). It's tempting to go for the "race port" for maximum power, but the cost of increased volume at the top of the tach is reduced velocity everywhere below.

I had A Fierro N/A race port done, oversized valves throughout the head, and the Crower 2s. The car was easily drivable, but it was pretty much worthless below 3000rpm. Even worse, when it was 110* outside here in Phoenix in the summer, it would want to knock if I even slightly "lugged" it by trying to increase speed without downshifting to bring the revs up above 3000rpm.

MSnS would be a GREAT addition to really maximize the benefits of installing these parts, but you would still notice a marked change in the engine's attitude without it. MSnS would smarten things up a bit.

Im planning on getting just the street port and polish, just something to let the air flow in a bit easier. And still be able to keep the stock valves and everything. I actually almost put MSnS in my 740 back in the day, but the turbo failed and ended that dream.

Anyway, although Id love to have a street driven 420A that just comes the hell alive at 3K, Im willing to find a happy medium with the parts I have coming. Just enough so the guys at the track learn some respect.

Well its been a while, but I now have sitting in my closet, a 2.5" catback, 60mm TB, UDP, and thanks to foggy I will soon have a set of Crower 2s and I also have a head on the way. So when I get all these parts together Im going to have a very fun weekend!

The question arises though, of what retainers I should use. Bullet showed me the 4G63 springs, but what should I do for retainers? My plan is to pull my motor out, do some cleaning, put it on a stand and pull the head off. From there I will install the cams, springs and retainers on the ported/polished head, and then put the head on with new gaskets for head/intake/exhaust. Sound like I have a path paved for a fun car?

Also, you may ask why Im pulling the motor, I find it easier to pull the motor to remove the head than leave it in the car. Its so much of a pain in the ass doing timing belts while the motor is still in the car.

This is the kind of thread I love. I'm still just beginning mods and haven't even thought about cams yet. Keep us posted as you go Colby. Sounds like a really fun ride. Thanks!

Thanks man. I enjoy posting stuff like this much more when other people enjoy it too. Ill definately keep up with it.

If you want to see pretty much everything Ive done to my car, I have a thread on my local forum.

http://www.ashtabularacing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4412

did you ever figure out what retainers, etc. to use for the crower 2s?

Not yet. I know Im using springs from a 4g63 but I havent figured out the retainers yet.

well keep me posted, because i am planning the same path that you chose, already got the head... and have lined up all the stock parts for the head after i get it p/p. and i think im going to get the crower 2s from cimotorsports. just want to make sure that its all going to work well with what im going to have, or buy the stuff im going to need.

Time for an update.

I installed the 60mm TB, and the full catback. Car is running pretty good. This is where Im going to need some help.

I got my cams, and Im going to start head work on my spare head. Im pulling everything off it, cams, valves, and brining it to a shop to first get checked, and then ported and polished. In the mean time, Im going to order these valve springs.

http://www.modernperformance.com/crower-dohc-valve-springs-9505-neon-9599-eclipse-p-1631.html

My question is, should I also get TI retainers? Im only planning on taking the engine up to its stock redline, like 7200 or so. This is what I found.

http://www.raceeng.com/p-7109-crwr-ti-retainerneon420a.aspx

The only thing that makes me shy away is the steep price tag.

So after I get the head back, cams and springs installed, Im going to pull the motor out of my car. Put the motor on a stand, pull the head off, swap head with ported/polished/cam ready head. Install my UDP and put it all back in. Sound like I know what Im doing?

My DD had crower 2's with factory retainers and crower springs....it was fine reved to redline. Others have proven the titanium arent required.

The advantage is a lighter valvetrain. For what its worth, its your call if you really want it.

Ok, Ill probably just get the springs for now then. Will my stock bottom end be strong enough to handle constant redline shifts? I can tone back my shifting some if needed...I just havent heard too much on the stock 420A rods/crank.

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Ok, Ill probably just get the springs for now then. Will my stock bottom end be strong enough to handle constant redline shifts? I can tone back my shifting some if needed...I just havent heard too much on the stock 420A rods/crank.

factory redline? yeah, you won't hurt anything.

Just ordered a 420A MSII kit from Symtech...

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Just ordered a 420A MSII kit from Symtech...

Just took another step toward 14's.......

Have you thought about the Jeep tb and the gst axle back. There's write up cheap alternative, perhaps better than the MP. Just my .o2

I've heard the tb space is decent, but I recommend doing a port on the intake. You could get for cheap at pull a part or at miller import parts.

What happend to your Crower 2's you had? They sounded great on your youtube.

Originally posted by dalesmitsu
Have you thought about the Jeep tb and the gst axle back. There's write up cheap alternative, perhaps better than the MP. Just my .o2 I've heard the tb space is decent, but I recommend doing a port on the intake. You could get for cheap at pull a part or at miller import parts. What happend to your Crower 2's you had? They sounded great on your youtube.

I actually have a MP 60mm and a 2.5" Tsudo Catback. Still have the cams in, and my spare intake manifold is at the machinist getting the injector humps smoothed out and ported and polished and bored to fit my TB.

Originally posted by dalesmitsu
I've heard the tb space is decent

What the fuck were you reading?

Throttle body spacers are only good at seperating you from your money

Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G

Originally posted by dalesmitsu I've heard the tb space is decent

What the fuck were you reading? Throttle body spacers are only good at seperating you from your money

A guy on myspace has one with an intake. I asked him about it, and he said it works. He has a short ram headers and catback, non ported intake. I told him somewhat thing you said, but he likes. Each to his own.

Originally posted by dalesmitsu
I told me somewhat thing you said, but he likes. Each to his own.

Dude, what?

And by works, you mean his car still runs? I read a fact/fiction article regarding TB spacers and ones that have the rifling in them a while back. Save your money for the gas station.

I will try & dig up the article. It is about as useful as octane booster.

Originally posted by CODE4

Originally posted by dalesmitsu I told me somewhat thing you said, but he likes. Each to his own.

Dude, what? And by works, you mean his car still runs? I read a fact/fiction article regarding TB spacers and ones that have the rifling in them a while back. Save your money for the gas station. I will try & dig up the article. It is about as useful as octane booster.

Sentence fixed and yes it still runs.

Originally posted by dalesmitsu
I told him somewhat thing you said, but he likes. Each to his own.

Seriously? Read that outloud - I still do not understand it.

Quote: One step closer to 14's

lol I hope so. Ill keep you informed and let you know when I need your knowledge lol.

Did you go with MS , and how about the Nitrous?

Originally posted by Cyexmaster
Did you go with MS , and how about the Nitrous?

Yeah, Symtech is building the kit for me, should be here in a few weeks. And I probably wont go Nitrous, because Im not comfortable using it yet and I like the all motor aspect.

Got my MS ECU today. Im going to start wiring it in soon...

Not to pry, but whats the bill on your build so far? Im looking to do a similar build. But i plan on finishing with a turbo.

Not sure...lets find out.

$600 MSII ECU
$200 Cams
$100 Headwork (on a)
$50 Head
$100 valve springs
$50 IM portwork
$200 Clutch
$20 CAI
$100 MSD coil and wires
$150 Header
$200 N1 2.5" Exhaust

Plus Id say a good $500 on misc parts like control arms and bushings, newer trans, sensors and all sorts of other stuff that are more maintenance than performance. Also like $200 on paint and bumper/hood.

The kicker is, I bought this car for $1500. Ive pretty much doubled the price of the car already.

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
The kicker is, I bought this car for $1500. Ive pretty much doubled the price of the car already.

Wow so were basically in the same boat, bought mine for $1000 and plan on putting a hell of a lot more into it. LoL

Mine will be double easy by the time I think I'm done-but that's half the fun isn't it?

Another long awaited update...

The car starts and runs standalone on the MSII ECU. After fighting with some IAC wires and settings, I got the car to idle around 1100, but will stall if left alone. Im currently using TunerstudioMS to try to tune it out, but theres quite a steep learning curve to it. Im trying to get the idle smoothed out, and then finish tuning the rest of the driving. I also noticed this spark table has an advance of around 94 degrees at one point (WTF?). I will hopefully have videos and ms shots soon.

Oh, also, I got the stock fans to come on around 210, and for some reason when the stock temp gauge reads around where it should in the center, my MS temp gauge is reading 260, even after I calibrated them.

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Oh, also, I got the stock fans to come on around 210, and for some reason when the stock temp gauge reads around where it should in the center, my MS temp gauge is reading 260, even after I calibrated them.

I don't like this part. You should verify with a turkey sticker. Put it right in the thermostat housing while she is running (could easily be the location of your sender, but its something that should be verified).

Oh yeah, congrats on getting her to fire up.

Will do boss. I figured it was just a calibration issue, but I will test it out to make sure.

I guess the values I had for calibrating the CLT and IAT sensors must have been off, because I re-calibrated them usuing 85 and up Chrysler, and it changed from 220 running for about 15 mins, to 170.

For some reason, I can not get this thing to lean out. As far as I know, I have the IAC set up decent (using Corbins write up), and Ive been adjusting the VE table. Its running so rich at idle that it will not idle below about 1300 RPM, and my AFR is around 10-11, the whole garage smells like gas. I read on megamanual a smaller VE number makes it leaner, bigger number makes it richer. I tried leaning it out quite a few points, and the idle seems to smooth out a little, but its still pig rich. My Inj PW is 13.9ms, using the built in calculator. 1996cc/122ci, 235cc/23lbHR. The setting when I opened it up was 14.7, I figured this was a bit much.

Im starting to feel way over my head here. God knows Im more than willing to sit in front of my laptop for hours on end tuning it, but I just cant seem to get this idle smoothed out to move on to tuning the rest of the range and the spark tables.

Car goes on the Dyno tomarrow..... :)

Its on the dyno right now, but we cant even get the thing to fucking idle. Im getting pretty upset.

Fuck I'm an asshole. I never got you that info. Here let me do a quick screen shot from the laptop;





Let me know if you need more

Thank you sir, my numbers actually came pretty close to yours in the 0-100 part of the table. I am about to post up my 2 vids, and the results :)

Hey I searched around a little bit more and came up with a couple of maps that would be a little closer to your set-up;

What were those from?

Red car when it was 10.9 comp with Crower 2's, ported stock intake, small port on head, adjustable cam gears, 60mm TB, Ram Air intake, AFX/UDP, stock injectors........

Just for documentation purposes, currently sitting at 167WHP and 15.5@86MPH.

Im thinking right now about relocating my IAT to my CAI pipe to help prevent a little of the heat soak. Im seeing 120* temps after sitting. Im also kicking around the idea of header wrapping my whole intake pipe. The idea here being to keep the thin aluminum from getting heat soak, and keep a little bit of the cooler denser air from my bumper intake up into the manifold, however much that might help. Thinking of a lot of other ideas to help out wherever I can.