I'm thinking about making the switch to E85 since gas hit $4/gallon today. E85 is still under $3/gallon here. Anyone else using it?

I read that you will need to increase the fuel by 15-20% and the gas milage will decrease compared to regular gas. The cheaper price will compensate.

I also plan on turning the boost up some more since E85 has a higher octane. (100-105 compared to 94) This reduces the chance of detonation as well.

Comment/suggestions?

i thought about it since its $2.50 here, i just cant find any information on doing the switch.
i'm guessing i need a different computer to make it work right?
how bout injectors?

I've got a bunch of good info on another forum but I can't get to it at work. it's Suby directed but it could easily be applied to 2GNT's. I've been splash blending it in my WRX wagon

E85 is AWESOME for tuning with.

I'll try to copy over the info tonight guys.

Oh yeah i would like to see that info... gas here is about 3.60 now and by summer its 4.00.. evevn though MN is like one of the lowest states for gas.. where would i get this though?

By the way, I'm tuning will w/ megasquirt to adjust for more gas and the injectors must be big enough so you arent maxing them out.

Here's the info I promised, lots of reading guys! }:)

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote
Summary of my recent posts on E85 in other forums
(cut and paste of segments so don't get too confused if it does not read smoothly -- I will clean it up as I get the time)

Introduction to my experiment with E85 circa 2004

Well I've been putting this off for a while until I had a good base of exprience but given the current news about oil prices, thought this would be a good time to open the discussion.

How many of you have used or considered using E-85 fuel in your WRX?
How many of you even know what E-85 is?

I have been running a high ethanol fuel blend in my WRX for nearly 2 years now, with no problems traceable to the fuel. The car really likes the high alcohol blend, with an obvious improvement in performance comparable to high octane so called "race fuels".

The Stock WRX ECU can handle up to approximately 33% E-85, by volume before you get a check engine light for "too lean" due to the fuel trims being pushed to the max rich settings. Add just a bit of pump premium and the CEL will clear.

I recently shifted to STi 550 injectors without any special changes in the engine management. Due to the cars larger injectors the car now prefers a higher blend. I am now running about 95% E-85, but have run the car on blends as low as about 30% E-85 without any serious problems. At lower blends the car has some surging due to the over size injectors at higher throttle settings, but can be easily driven as a daily driver if you stay out of the >60% throttle position transition to open loop.

The one problem is that currently E-85 sites are a little difficult to find, but the more of it we use the more available it will become.

The folks backing E-85 production are pushing as hard as they can to get stations to make it available, but its a slow process. They need customers to start asking station owners if they plan on carrying it to motivate stations to add a pump/tank.
There are currently dozens of FFV's out there that are designed to run on the stuff if folks can find a place to buy it. Simple way to drastically reduce oil demand as well, and put money in our economy instead of some other countries coffers.

I currently drive 20 miles each way to get to the nearest E-85 stations, but it is still a good deal as I am paying $1.59.9 / gal for the E-85, vs about $2.05.9 / gal for premium. ( some E-85 vendors charge at a premium fuel rate of about $2.00/gal)

With the added octane of the E-85 you can actually splash blend it with mid grade gasoline with out problems.

When I suspect it will be difficult to locate E-85 from the pump I just make a point of topping off the tank before it drops below 3/4 full. This keeps the ethanol blend up to a high enough level to avoid any drivability issues with my oversize injectors.


Any other adventurous souls out there playing with E-85?
I know a couple others are using alcohol fuels !



Is the WRX warranteed to run on E85 ?
NO it is not, but my experience shows its not a major issue either.

I think it is important to note that they don't recommend greater than 10% ethanol, ie they warrantee the car will run fine with up to 10% ethanol but greater than that your on your own. But they do not say you should avoid higher blends of ethanol and other tests have shown modern cars can run on upto about 30% blends with no problem.

They do specifically mention that methanol is not to be used over 5% concentration, and that is due to corrosion issues with methanol, which is Much Much more prone to corrosion than ethanol.

So far I have seen no "real" problems with the E-85. There are two minor CEL issues.

1 If your running over 35% on a stock ECU and fuel injectors you will push the fuel trims to full rich and get a "too lean" CEL.

2 If you run up rated injectors like I am now, at around 65% - 75% alcohol fraction the evaporative emissions system gets confused due to the higher vapor pressure of the high alcohol fuel blend and throws a CEL because it thinks your gas cap is loose.

I will have to figure out how to "spoof" the evaporative emissions CEL here in the future, but at the moment I'm more interested in seeing how the car runs on near 100% E-85 for a while.

As mentioned above any "damage" should be easily remedied, ie replacing a hose, or some O riongs, possibly changing to a different fuel pumps. It is very difficult to predict long term corrosion, or materials compatibility so I've decided to bite the bullet and be the test dummy and see what if anything breaks.

Based on my tests, the short term conclusion is you can run concentrations of >10% fuel ethanol for periods in execess of 1 year with no detectable damage. We'll just have to see how things go in another year or so.

Hopefully this winter I'll get the time to pull the fuel pump and look over the interior of the fuel tank to see how its doing.

What is the history of large scale conversions to high ethanol fuels

When Brazil began making a wholesale conversion to high ethanol fuels back in the late 70's following the energy crisis, they made several studies on the ability of normal cars to run ethanol blends. They found that the cars of that period could run up to about 22% blends on the stock system with no problems, which is why they settled on a 20% blend as one of the fuels available. The issue was one of control authority of the ECU to compensate for the leaner mixture. Some could handle more than others. As I stated, it appears the stock ECU on the 2002 WRX is good up till about a 33% - 35% blend.

During the 70's and 80's when oxygenated fuels and "gasahol" first saw wide use here in the U.S. there WERE fuel component compatibility problems. My 1969 VW fuel lines really didn't like the ethanol and began to leak like a sieve, some carburator needle valves softened, some carburator floats would soak up the ethanol and get too heavy to function as a float. There were lots of problems with clogged fuel filters on cars that had been running on gasoline only for decades and had lots of varnish build up in the fuel system. The ethanol in gasohol was a very effecient fuel system cleaner and all that crud got carried to the fuel filters. Once the fuel filters were replaced those problems disappeared.

At that time All the auto manufactures moved to ethanol compatible fuel line components, ie. o rings, rubber hose etc. They warrantee that they are good to 10% but my experience shows they are satisfactory to much higher concentrations. The VW showed its compatibility problem in a matter of months after we went to ethanol blended oxygenated fuel here in Denver. Engineers typically don't solve a compatibility problem by making the new component "sorta compatible" they change compounds to materials that are not effected by the chemical in question.

The Denver area has been using ethanol oxygenated fuels (ranging from 5% - 10%) concentration for over 30 years. Every modern car works just fine with these low ethanol blended fuels. Rubber hoses and O rings last for the life of the car.


The electrical conductivity issue is not significant in the case of ethanol. It is detectable with a dialectic constant tester. It DOES become a significant issue with methanol blends which is why methanol blended fuel is so agressively corrosive. The main issue with methanol is it agressively attacks certain metals like magnesium and zinc. One of the reasons everyone is looking at ethanol is the 30+ years of successful use of high ethanol fuel blends in Brazil and low ethanol blends here in the U.S. with essentially zero problems after they changed fuel line and O ring and seal materials in the fuel system.

Dialectic Constants
Gasoline 2.2
Ethanol 24
Methanol 33.6
Water 48 - 88

Keep in mind that absolutely pure water is a good enough insulator it is used to cool electronic components. It does not become an effective conductor until is dissolves minerals that act as charge carriers (electrolytes).


Will my O2 sensor work with E85 and high ethanol blends?
The O2 sensor is not an issue, all it cares about is if your at stoich combustion at low throttle settings, it doesn't much care how you get there, so no need to change it.


What about the evaporative emissions system in my car

The higher vapor pressure of ethanol gasoline blends is not ideal for the evaporative emissions system and the vapor recovery canister. For full emissions compliance these will need to be modified. Currently there are no kits available to upgrade this part of the emissions system. At very high ethanol blends you may see CEL warnings because the evaporative emissions system is not happy with some of its sensor readings. This does not appear to effect the cars performance, or fuel milage in any way and is mostly a nusince CEL.

As I mentioned above the only -- real -- problem so far is simply some nusince CELs.
"too lean" if your over 30%+ on the stock injectors, and an evaporative emissions CEL if your running >65% or so on upgraded injectors.

If your emissions test requires no CELs present, you simply need to go to a lower ethanol fuel blend for a while to allow that nusince CEL to clear, and the dash warning light to go off.


what would be needed for a complete conversion kit to run 100% ethanol fuel


For full conversion to alcohol fuels the change list typically looks something like:


1. Go to an compatable fuel pump (non-sparking if intank design).
2. Replace fuel lines with alcohol compatable lines.
3. Possibly replace filter (???).
4. Replace injectors with large enough ones to feed proper fueling.
5. Replace injector/FPR o-rings with compatible o-rings... viton maybe?
6. Add a spark/flash suppressor to the fuel tank inlet tube.
7. Ensure the fuel tank material is completely compatable with alcohol.
8. Stop the stock ECU from freaking out due to changes in various emissions sensor readings.

With ethanol on the WRX, you only need (according to my current experience base) is numbers 4, and 8.

I would love to see if one of the ECU reflash vendors can get into the part of the ECU code to solve the evaporative emissions issue. I'm pretty sure the Evap emissions problem can be spoofed mechanically but just have not had time to look at it. If not the simple solution is to drop to a 60% blend. That would reduce consumption of oil by nearly 2/3's give you probably 1/2 the emissions you get with gasoline, and some where between 5% - 10% more power.


Corrosion does not appear to be an issue with modern OBDII cars. They are all certified by the manufactures to be safe to use on 10% ethanol fuel blends, and industry insiders say they are safe for much higher percentages. You don't install components that are "sorta safe" with a chemical, you put in a fuel hose etc. that is ethanol safe for concentrations well above what you expect to use. Not to mention that folks have been talking for years about raising the ethanol level to 20% or more.

Occasional use would be no problem at all based on my experience. I have never cut open the fuel filter (still have the OEM filter in place) I'll open it when I replace it. I want to put enough time on it to have conclusive evidence if there are problems.

The engine is not an issue with either, WI using a water alcohol mix or straight alcohol injection. In those systems alcohol and water are not used in significant quantity or for long duration. The Buick GN folks and lots of folks in the DSM crowd have done it for literally decades with no problems for the engine.

Many years ago there were studies that indicated engines that ran on alcohol ALONE as a fuel, had issues with lubrication and valve seat wear. Keep in mind, those studies were done a long time ago, when engine oils were much less sophisticated than they are now, and some engine manufactures in the 1940's,1950' and 1960's made stupid engineering decisions and did not use hard valve seat inserts like stellite in the cylinder heads. This resulted in valve seat recession problems if you did not have lead additives in the fuel to protect the valve seats.

Modern lubricants, especially the synthetic oils are much much different than the oils used during those studies, and modern engines run at higher temperatures today which will quickly boil any traces of alcohol out of the oil.

Methanol is much more corrosive than ethanol. It attacks certain soft metals that are not much used in modern fuel systems. Years ago, the carburators were made of un-anodized aluminum and if methanol fuel was used, you had major problems with electrolytic corrosion between the aluminum and copper components used in the fuel system, since they were in continous contact.

That sort of corrosion only occurs when you have a current path between the dissimilar metals AND, a conductive path through the fluid in the system.

In Brazil where they have run high ethanol fuels since 1939, they found that to convert older cars designed for gasoline, long before ethanol blends were common, needed several changes to convert the cars over. This led to changes in valve materials, piston rings choices, nickle plating of the fuel tanks etc.

Modern cars in the U.S. are designed for use with ethanol up to 10% concentration in the fuel. That has led to several changes in component materials over the last 30 years that the U.S. has used ethanol enhanced fuels. All modern fuel lines and such are designed with the expectation that some ethanol will be in the fuel.


As I explained above, my experiment is an intentional effort to push the envelope and see what happens. Over the last 2 years I have run high ethanol fuels ( normal pump fuel here in Colorado contains up to 10% ethanol anyway) for months at a time.

At mixtures below 33% by volume of alcohol ( about 39% E-85 by volume) I had absolutely no problems of any kind. At higher mixtures > 33% alcohol, I got a nuisance CEL for too lean which could be eliminated by added gasoline to the mix or as I have recently increased the injector size. (Increasing fuel pressure would also increase the effective size of the injectors).

At mixtures near 65% in my current setup I got a nuisance CEL for the evaporative emissions system, but the car runs very well on the high alcohol blend. The only issue with near 100% E-85, is the car starts a little harder in cold weather. When it gets very cold I drop the mixture to about 80% or so to solve that by adding about 2 gallons of gasoline to the tank of E-85.

I have done no oil analysis at this point, some day when I have both spare time and money I will, but with synthetic oils there is really not much of an issue in the first place. As I said above, fuel pump and injectors show no signs of problems.

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote
Where can I buy E85?

Distribution is currently a problem, it is most available in the mid western states, but there is a concerted effort to get an ethanol
fueling infrastructure built, it just takes time, and recognition by the gasoline vendors that there is a market. Marathon oil has
already added E85 to their formal product line so things are moving in that direction.

Current high fuel prices can only help that process, as will lots of people calling up gas stations and asking them when they plan on
pumping E85 for FFV's.

E85 already contains inhibitors and such to minimize corrosion, and most of the problems with ethanol usage were solved 20 years ago
when most of the country moved to ethanol addition to gasoline following the oil crisis in 1973 and high oil prices that continued
up until 1981.

For information on distribution points check out:
http://www.e85fuel.com/

How about fuel mixtures for E85 what is needed ?

The one interesting thing to note is that the stock pig rich mixtures at WOT on the stock ECU of the WRX are very close to max
power mixtures on E85 blends. If you play with the blending ratio to find your magic number you can take advantage of this by giving the
car a fuel blend that is max power rich at stock ECU WOT mixtures. *** just take your time and work up the blend slowly ***

After a few folks have dyno runs on various blends we can probably pick out a "best starting point" blend that will get you very close.
We could also work out the other supporting mods to make best use of E85 for minimum cost.

It basically takes about a +30% increase in fuel flow to get the same equivalent mixture with E85 that you had with gasoline.

For example an adjustable fuel pressure regulator can increase your effective injector flow to partially compensate for the fuel
changes.

As mentioned above, lean is still a bad thing, and with alcohol fuels due to the higher power levels a serious leanout is more
lethal. With conservative mixtures alcohol actually burns so cool that on E85 FFV there is some concern about getting the cat to light off.

If you sneak up on a fuel blend slowly you should be just fine. I would venture to say for the near stock folks, up to 30% is probably
safe as long as you give the ECU a few miles to make the major part of the fuel trim accomodation before you start beating on the car.
You'll know when the ECU starts to get happy as the midrange torque is noticably better.

I also strongly suspect that a well tuned car with no cats can probably pass the emissions sniff test on high E85 blends.


How does ignition timing change on E85 ?

Timing on ethanol blends will not change very much. MBT timing for both gasoline and E85 are very nearly the same at light to moderate
engine loads. At high engine load the E85 will want just slightly more advance. The big difference will be fuel/air mixture. The E85
will give improved torque with much richer mixtures than gasoline. Both gasoline and E85 will give best thermal effeciency at about 15%
rich of stoich, so the equivalent of 12.78:1 on gasoline would be about 8.5:1 on E85, but E85 will continue to give better torque
numbers up to about +40% rich of stoich or 7:1 mixtures, so on a utec you would want to richen up your WOT high load cells and add a
tweak of timing to get the most out of E85 from what I've read.

Question
Are you sure you don't mean that E85 will allow more advance?

Just passing on what I've found in the various sources. Logically you are correct, but one source says simply that MBT timing is the
same for E85 and gasoline, and another report says at low loads the E85 and gasoline like the same MBT timing but at high loads MBT
timing for the E85 is slightly more advance.

I suspect this is due to them not running ideal max power mixtures but cannot confirm it. Burn speed for E85 changes quite a bit with
mixture, so if they were just a little bit lean or rich of ideal the burn rate would be lower.

Lots and lots of variables not well covered in some of the sources and in general they are focusing on emissions issues not max power
torque so that would incline them to use less than best power timing advance. In a couple of the reports they also had limited control
authority over timing and may not have explored the extremes very thoroughly.

Just about a year ago (2003), I was finding conflicting information on alcohol fuel burn speeds and contacted The National Renewable
Energy Lab here in Denver, they did a search and could only find a couple of references on it, one that showed ethanol fuels burn
faster, so the literature is not very rich in data on the subject. Most reports are not entirely applicable to our needs like tests on
lawnmower engines and alcohol fuels have some significant limitations

Still digging for info but that is my best information at the present time.

The report that mentioned the slight increased advance requirement on heavy load E85 fuels was :

"Final Report Control of Exhaust Emissions from Small Engines Using E-10 and E-85 Fuels"
http://www.michigan.gov/cis/0,1607,7-15 ... --,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CIS_E ... 7915_7.pdf


On page 12 it says :
"Tests were conducted to assess the impact of MBT ignition timing on fuel economy and exhaust emissions. The spark timing was varied
until the least advanced timing was achieved for the maximum torque for a given setting of the engine throttle. The A/F ratio was
adjusted to achieve near stoichiometric operation. ... " The MBT timing for E-85 fuel was a few crank angle degrees advances compared
to E-0 fuel when the engine was delivering high loads, typically 100 - 75%. Not much difference was observed at lower engine loads."

I'm assuming that this explains the timing change as they were using what would be closed loop fuel mixtures on the WRX. So in load cells
that would continue to use closed loop fueling you would want to have slightly more ignition timing than you would with gasoline. In
the case of WOT open loop fueling where your running a max power rich fuel mixture, I very strongly suspect the fuel burn speed would
be noticably faster, and you would use less ignition advance than on gasoline and reap the benefit of less negative work on the late
stages of the compression / early period of combustion prior to TDC.

In a power point presentation presented by the EPA at the SAE Government and Industry Meeting in Washington D.C. on May 13, 2003
titled:

"Ethanol-Gasoline Blends: Fuel Economy and Emissions Benefits"

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/g ... 051303.pdf

On page 9 of the presentation is a nice chart comparing laminar burn speeds of gasoline and Ethanol.

It shows the following burn speeds:

Mixture fuel/air---- 1:1 ------------ 1.1:1

Gasoline --------- 26 cm/sec ------- 30 cm/sec (max about 31 cm/sec)
Ethanol ---------- 41 cm/sec ------- 45 cm/sec (max value)

Clearly at +10% - +15% rich mixtures where ethanol shows max thermal effeciency it burns significantly faster than gasoline. Which could
be quite important to a very over square bore engine like ours!!


what is the ideal fuel air mixture for E85

If you are tuning with a wideband O2 sensor you will want to switch it to Lamda mode to get valid fuel air mixtures with blended fuels.

Here are some comparisions of stoichmetric fuel mixtures for different fuel blends:
======== stoichmetric AFR ===== max power rich AFR
Gasoline ---------- 14.7:1 -------------------12.5
100% E-85 ------- 9.73-9.8:1 ------------- ~ 9:1 - 8:1
100% fuel ethanol - 9:1 ------------------- ~ 7.2:1

One source specifies that the proper fuel tune (stoich) for a VW Golf running 22% ethanol was 12.7:1 (this reference was probably
from the Brazil tests)

Ethanol reaches max torque at richer mixtures than gasoline will.
Using a 99% ethanol mixture MEP increases with mixtures up to 40%
excess fuel where with gasoline MEP is reached near 20% excess fuel. Over all thermal effeciency for both gasoline and ethanol is reached
near 15% excess fuel.

E85 burns faster than gasoline at best mixtures so it is an inherently more effecient fuel. It also produces more exhaust gas
for a give weight of fuel air mix giving higher average cylinder pressures inspite of lower EGT's. With streight E85 in a properly
tuned car its good for about +5% power / torque increase. I suspect on a turbocharged car the benefit is larger.

My source lists stoich for E85 as 9.8:1 ( "Burn rates and emissions from ethanol gasoline blends" )
http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/research ... 04.doc.pdf

Here's a little reference chart I whipped up when I was working out my dyno numbers.

Fuel                      AFRst     FARst     Equivalence   Lambda
----                      -----     -----       Ratio       -----
=======================--====================================

Gasoline   stoich          14.7    0.068       1           1
Gasoline Max power rich    12.5    0.08        1.176       0.8503
Gasoline Max power lean    13.23   0.0755      1.111       0.900

=======================--====================================

E85 stoich                 9.765    0.01235    1          1
E85 Max power rich         6.975    0.1434     1.40       0.7143
E85 Max power lean         8.4687   0.118      1.153      0.8673


=======================--====================================

E100 stoich                9.0      0.111      1          1
E100 Max power rich        6.429    0.155      1.4        0.714
E100 Max power lean        7.8      0.128      1.15       0.870


=======================--====================================

Estimating fuel required on E85
Fuel injector, carburetor jet sizing, and fuel pump requirements can be estimated by using the following rules of thumb as a starting
point. For a naturally aspirated (NA) engine (carbureted) on gasoline most need a brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) for
gasoline of 0.50 lb/(hp·h). On E85 the same NA engine would need a BSFC of about 0.65 lb/(hp·h).

Turbocharged engines typically need BSFC fueling of about 0.60 lb/(hp·h), a reasonable first guess for fueling required on E85 would
be 0.77 lb/(hp·h).

For a simple conversion to replace gasoline with E85 take the current "flywheel horsepower" as a reference point. With E85, power
should increase by about 5%, so the estimated E85 fueling would be:

(BHPgasoline x 1.05) x BSFCe85 = Estimated E85 fuel requirements.


What is your test history to date (6/2005) with E85 ?

I just tallied up my usage over the last 2 years, (the first year I was very cautious and did not use very much). I've put about 500
gallons of E85 and 100% fuel grade ethanol through the cars tank --- that's some where around 40 fill ups, or around 9,000 miles or so on
high ethanol (ie greater than 10%) blend fuels.


I am intentionally running the E85 with no special fuel system modifications. In a few years or when ever problems crop up, I'll
pull things apart and see what has happened. So far I have absolutely no evidence of ANY kind of degradation on my 2002 WRX.
The only non-stock component I'm running in the fuel system at the current time is a walbro 255 L/hr pump, so I cannot absolutely tell
you how the stock pump likes the stuff.

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote
Why is E85 a better fuel ?

Ethanol and is a very turbo friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.

2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.

3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.

4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.

5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.

6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).

7. It is much cheaper ( if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge).


How much will my miles per gallon of fuel drop with E85?

The only negative to E85 is that it gives a lower fuel milage on a gallon for gallon basis to gasoline. The actual difference in energy content between straight gasoline and E85 is about 27%.

The drop in milage is not as significant as you would think based on that difference due to the higher effeciency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel. This winter I was getting about 92% of the fuel milage I would get on gasoline on 100% E85.

The lower milage is not really a big deal, ethanol has lower energy per gallon but your reduction in milage is not nearly as large as that difference would imply. Due to the higher torque,you use slightly smaller throttle openings to get the same level of preformance, and due to the greater quantity of combustion products (more moles of gas) per lb of fuel the engine effeciency actually goes up slightly. My long term fuel milage average is in the vicinity of 24.5 mpg, with pump gas, and with 75% ethanol blend, I was getting just over 23 mpg driven normally. Recently I have been flogging the crap out of the car to sort out new boost controller settings for my new turbo (went from a 13G to a 16G). Given I now have a larger turbo and all that is hardly a noticable fuel milage drop. I have gotten around 300 -345 miles/tank on straight gasoline when I was bone stock, and I expect to get from 280 - 310 miles per tank on the E-85 based on my notes of fuel consumption and accounting for the unusually hard driving I have been doing the last week working on the boost controller settings.

In very cold weather <20deg F I don't go above about 90% E85 to improve cold starting and speed up engine warm up a bit. Other than that the car loves E85 and so does my wallet ---- $1.89/gallon (6/2005) for 100 octane fuel is hard to argue with. It only drops my fuel milage a small amount. I get 93.76% of my gasoline milage when driving conservatively in my WRX with the larger injectors and high ethanol fuel blends.


will a wide band O2 sensor accurately read fuel air mixtures with E85 blends ?

To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichimetric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichemetric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.

If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.

On gasoline, my ECU is supposed to give a mixture of 11.5:1 and on 100% E85 the dyno's wide band reported an AFR of 11.6:1. That means that my true AFR on the E85 was about 7.8:1 which is right in the middle of max power mixtures for E85.

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote
Well I have begun a new build, trying to achieve a true Flexible Fuel Setup.

I got a ball park tune last night (Jan 10) on my new setup for the WRX on 100% E85 fuel.

I wanted to thank Harvey for staying late and fighting some logging problems (laptop would crash every time we tried to log a run).
So harvey being the good guy he is, dug in and did it the hard way.

This was the first ball park tune on a new setup so we were not going for spectacular numbers (although I am quite pleased).
I just told him to give me a good basic tune, then I can figure out the best boost settings for the boost controller so I get exactly the boost I want every time with no spiking etc.. Then we can try to push the power up a bit, as the weather warms up, and I finish cleaning up a few details I still have to take care of on the under hood plumbing.

E85 fuel, 810 cc/min injectors, box stock OEM 2.0 L 2002 WRX engine, TGV deletes, 16G small (oem turbo off an Aussie car with the entry modified to straight in inlet.) Heat wrapped exhaust manifolds, Oakos 2.5 down pipe wrapped, home made 3" turbo back, Perrin inlet hose, home made inlet tube to a GP Moto intake, and a Perrin FMIC, with blitz boost controller.

Atmospheric condtions were:
At the end of the tuning session, 71.8 deg F, 21% humidity, and an absolute barometer of 24.19 in-hg


We managed to hit 281 hp and 260 torque at about 17 psi boost (using his standard 1.15 CF)
When we went for more boost we pissed off the ECU so we called it a day fattened up the mixture a tad in the zone it pulled timing, and settled for something in the high 260's for daily driving power, until I figure out exactly what pissed off the ECU.
The Perrin front mount was doing a great job of keeping inlet temps down! On the first couple pulls, the intake temps actually dropped as we got on boost, by the end of the evening we found that at 17 psi we were starting to push the 16G small out of its happy place as the intake temps started climbing up toward 95 degrees with a single psi increase in boost you could see a noticable increase in intake temps.

Here is the image of the dyno plot with a stock STi for reference, car has a very pretty power curve, almost perfectly smooth and symetrical.
Power is almost flat from 5700 rpm to 6700 rpm.


For comparison stock STi's put down about 225 on this dyno.


Thanks Harvey!!
I really appreciate you staying late to get a good tune on the car, inspite of the inability to log all the data you normally do.

Car is scary quick through Low gear now, I have to be careful not to run all the way to the rev limiter in low, it almost gets there too quick.
I have studded snow tires on there right now so I'm probably making a spark show at night when I jump on it in low, but hard to tell if I'm spinning them.

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote
E85 fuel ethanol content seasonal changes
The recommended dates for changing E85 fuel blends are listed in a chart in the E85 handbook on page 22, which is in the "E85 Fuel Specification" tab.
The Volatility class specifications are broken down on page 10.

Volatility class 1 --- minimum ethanol 79%
Volatility class 2 --- minimum ethanol 74%
Volatility class 3 --- minimum ethanol 70%


http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/ethanol_guidebook.pdf

As you can see each region has a different start date and recommendation for seasonal blends depending on local weather climate.

Here on the high plains east of the rockies in Colorado we run the class 1 fuel blend from mid June -- mid Sept, run class 2 fuel from mid Sept -- mid Oct and run the class 3 fuel blend from Mid Oct -- mid April, then back to the class 2 blend from mid April to mid June. In short here in Colorado near Denver we are already on the winter blend, but there is latitude in the standard, so the standard only specifies a minimum ethanol content. If it is cheaper for the fuel blender to add more he can. Ethanol content is bottom line driven by local weather conditions, and cold starting problems for local drivers just a gasoline blends are modified to give easier starting in cold weather.

In the Southern part of Texas they would never go to a class 3 blend, and in Wisconsin, they would only have the class 1 blend for about 2 months in the summer. In Florida they would be on class 1 almost all year long and in North Dakota and Wyoming and Montana, they would be on class 3 almost all year long.


Ethanol specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures is actually higher than gasoline allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned than gasoline. allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned than gasoline.

Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1
Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1
Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb 6.429:1

If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference.
100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100%
100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127% more heat energy
100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9% more heat energy



Typical fuel energy contents:
gallon of gasoline = 125,000 Btu
1 gallon of ethanol = 84,400 Btu
1 gallon methanol = 62,800 Btu
1 gallon of gasohol
(10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) = 120,900 Btu
1 gallon of E-85
(85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) = 90,500 Btu
1 gallon of kerosene or light distillate oil = 135,000 Btu
1 gallon of middle distillate or diesel fuel oil = 138,690 Btu


My long term average on gasoline was 24 mpg, my milage on the same setup on E85 was 22 mpg, my current milage on gasoline is about 22 current mileage on E85 is 18 mpg.

Current setup upgraded turbo-
gasoline mileage 22 mpg = 5682 BTU/mi
E85 90,500 Btu /gallon / 18 mpg = 5028 BTU/mile (daily driving with periodic high boost acceleration)
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/ 19.3 mpg = 4689 BTU/mile (driving mostly off boost as daily commuter)

Old setup stock turbo -
gasoline mileage Gasoline 125,000 Btu/ gallon / 24 = 5208 BTU/mile
My old setup, @ 92% of gasoline milage or 22 mpg
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/22 = 4114 BTU/mile

The above was not even on an optimize E85 engine just a simple low budget conversion.
As you can see E85 is an inherently more effecient fuel, it produces more useful work than gasoline does for a given investment in energy.

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote
Ethanol specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures is actually higher with E85 and ethanol, than gasoline allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned by a gasoline powered spark ignition internal combustion engine. Since many opponents of E85 and fuel ethanol harp on its lower energy content per gallon and jump to the conclusion that fuel economy is tied directly to that energy content, I was trying to find a way to explain why E85 consistantly shows that it can produce more distance traveled for a given energy content consumed and found a simple way to show how that is possible.

The stoichiometric fuel air mixture is important for fuel economy because modern ECU's spend light load light throttle cruise in or very near the stoichiometric fuel air mixture.

Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb stoichiometric fuel air mixture gasoline 14.7:1 = 1292.5 BTU/lb @ stoich
Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb stoichiometric fuel air mixture E85 9.765:1 = 1379.9 BTU/lb @ stoich
Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb stoichiometric fuel air mixture 9.0:1 = 1388.9 BTU/lb @ stoich

If you divide the lbs of fuel burned by the stoichiometric fuel air mixture, you get a characteristic specific energy per lb of fuel at stoichiometric fuel air mixture. This shows how much energy is available to the engine for each lb of fuel burned under stoichiometric AFR's.

You can also make the same calculation at typical max power fuel air mixtures

Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1 = 1520 BTU/lb @ max power mixture
Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1 = 1931.9 BTU/lb @ max power mixture
Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.429:1 = 1944.3 BTU/lb @ max power mixture.


If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference at max power fuel air mixtures.
100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100%
100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127%
100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9%


One way to look at an engines power potential is how much fuel energy it could possibly release from the fuel as mentioned above. That sets the upper limit to engine power and performance. The common spark ignition internal combustion engine is usually operated in an air limited condition. That is how the engine is throttled, we control how much air it can pump and use to oxidize the fuel. A high performance engine is almost always limited in it total power production by the amount of air it can process, and by the problem of detonation at high power/load. Everyone discusses E85's high fuel octane and how it prevents detonation at high power/load settings but the fuel itself is also an inherently more effecient fuel than gasoline in two other respects. It is capable of releasing more heat energy than gasoline for a given amount of air processed (ie a smaller displacement engine can do the same work on E85 that would require a larger engine on gasoline). E85 is also a more effecient fuel in how the internal combustion engine converts that heat energy to useful work which is not so obvious when folks are always focusing on miles per gallon as a measure of engine effeciency.

During a discussion on another forum I came up with this energy/mile view of E85 and it has some interesting implications for energy displacement of fossile fuels and as a point of discussion when talking about the advantages of eE85. These are the energy/mile numbers for my WRX on E85, first with the old setup using the smaller stock turbo, and second my current setup on a large turbo (higher engine power).

Current setup upgraded turbo-
gasoline milage 22 mpg = 5682 BTU/mi
E85 90,500 Btu /gallon / 18 = 5028 BTU/mile
On this setup It only took 88% of the fuel energy to move a mile powered by E85 than it did on gasoline.

Old setup stock turbo -
gasoline milage Gasoline 125,000 Btu/ gallon / 24mpg = 5208 BTU/mile
My old setup, @ 92% of gasoline milage or 22 mpg
E85 90,500 BTU/gallon/22 = 4114 BTU/mile
E85 uses 78% of fuel energy to travel a mile compared to gasoline.

On my current setup it takes only 88% of the energy to move a mile on E85 that it would on gasoline, but due to my larger turbocharger and higher power output my total fuel effeciency dropped a bit compared to the older more effecient system.

This clearly explains why E85 fuel milage does not follow the fuel energy / gallon of the fuel. It also shows that a gallon of E85 replaces almost 1.25 gallons of gasoline when you look at it from the point of view of the actual useful work the two fuels produce on the road.

Food for thought!

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote
I can never seem to quickly find references for "on line debates" regarding ethanol. I thought it would be useful to build a bibliography of studies and news stories that support various ethanol discussion topics or serve to refute some of the bogus/outdated info that is out on the web.
Post any other links and I will merge them in with these links for quick reference.


I will add summary/foot notes to the links as time allows.

Larry

Energy statistics

Official Energy Statistics from the U.S. Govt.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/fuelrenewable.html
current monthly production numbers
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petr ... 9mhilt.pdf
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/09/20/TarSands/

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/ethanol ... ional.html

monthly production
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_p ... mbbl_m.htm

Petroleum stats
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleu ... oleum.html

Energy balance of fuel ethanol vs Pimental study

http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/pdfs/StudySummary.pdf
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/docum ... buttal.pdf
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/pdfs/Wang2005.pdf
http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/20 ... 0823.ppt#4 <--
.74 mbtu fossil in = 1 mbtu ethanol out (corn 1.36 return)
(cellulose 2.31 return)
1.23 mbtu fossil in = 1 mbtu fossil out (gasoline 0.81 return)
electricty 2.34 mbtu fossil in = 1mbtu electricty out (0.45 return) <--- not a good thing for electric cars and CO2 emissions.

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... y_2006.pdf
Journal of Science article on energy balance

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/271.pdf
http://www.ethanol-gec.org/information/briefing/10.pdf
http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/Biom ... alance.pdf
http://www.eri.ucr.edu/ISAFXVCD/ISAFXVAF/UGEEERF.pdf
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/docum ... lspent.pdf
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/docum ... aer721.pdf
http://rael.berkeley.edu/EBAMM/summary.html
http://rael.berkeley.edu/EBAMM/FarrellE ... 012706.pdf
http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/issue ... 22_01b.htm
http://www.ncga.com/public_policy/issue ... 22_01a.htm


Price history gasoline, ethanol and diesel
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/price_report.html

Fuel economy due to summer/winter blend gasolines

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/ostp-3.pdf
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... dy_001.pdf
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... _12507.pdf



http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/32206.pdf
Title : Issues Associated with Use of Higher Ethanol Blends (E17 - E24)
By National Renewable Energy Lab Oct 2002

Includes comments on pipeline shipment of ethanol including successful tests and methods used in Brazil, along with vehicle compatibility with higher ethanol fuel blends.

Fuel characteristics ethanol vs gasoline
http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorspor ... stics.aspx

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf
Fuels Properties Table
Department of Energy

Contains physical properties of many common transportation fuels.

E85 ASTM specifcation ASTM D5798-07
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.ex ... ?E+mystore

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/old/5682.pdf
Ethanol from Biomass
Technology report from NREL on advances in ethanol production from cellulose using organizms that directly ferment xylose to ethanol, and single organizms that can produce ethanol directly from both 5 and 6 carbon sugars.


http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/40243.pdf


Handbook for Handling Storing and Dispensing E85
NREL with DOE and NEVC

Gives useful guidence to anyone interested in understanding the proper handling, storage, and distribution of E85 , included discussion of compatible pumping equipment.


http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf
Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol Update
USDA publication

Summarizes recent data on true costs and co-products generated during ethanol production. Showing a positive energy balance of 1.34 .
July 2002


http://www.transportation.anl.gov/softw ... tions.html
Argonne National Labratories, list of GREET model studies and reports


http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/re ... y?id=36794


http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... rStory.pdf


http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/pdfs/Wang2005.pdf


http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/377.pdf
Fuel Cycle Assessment of Selected Bio-Ethanol Pathways in the United States.
Argon National Labratories publication (52 pages)

Detailed discussion of energy useage and assumptions used in energy balance calculations. Give direct comparitive data between gasoline and fuel ethanol by various means of production in section 5.x.

Ethanol Literature Review
http://www.usask.ca/agriculture/caedac/PDF/ethanol.pdf

tax benefits
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings. ... ew&id=5797

Economic impact on local and state economies due to ethanol production

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... olinSD.pdf
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... tstudy.pdf
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... munity.pdf
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... Feb_06.pdf

Synthetic ethanol
http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media_r ... 42406.html


Nuclear co generation ethanol
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070517/lath086.html?.v=98

Sugar cane based ethanol
Peru -- http://e85.whipnet.net/news/sugar.cane.html

Cellulose based ethanol

switch grass -
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html

Iogen ethanol - http://www.iogen.ca/
http://www.iogen.ca/news_events/press_r ... elease.pdf

http://www.ethanolforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=54
http://www.agriculture.com/ag/story.jht ... 438081.xml
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/ussciencebi ... 86y1Ks0NUE
Range fuels - http://www.rangefuels.com/range_fuels_t ... in_georgia
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18227/
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRel ... BW20080108

http://www.biofuelsjournal.com/articles ... 48442.html
http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/ ... ulosi.html


Ethanol economics

Spot prices california
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/graph ... month.html

Average ethanol rack prices by state
http://www.axxispetro.com/ace.shtml

Use of intermediate Ethanol fuel blends

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ ... Report.pdf

Legislation regarding renewable fuels

http://www.portlandonline.com/osd/index.cfm?c=ecied
Portland renewable fuels standard

http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/2005 ... 38-S.E.pdf
washington state house bill on renewable fuel standard

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/200 ... a7140b.htm
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/renewablefuels/
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/standard/
Federal Renewable fuel standards

http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/ ... ocus2.html
Business Journal story regarding Federal Renewable Fuels standards intent and tracking of renewable fuels via use of Renewable fuels credits.

E85 optimized engines
http://www.swri.edu/4org/d03/engres/spk ... effimp.htm

News articles on FFVs' of note
Saab
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Au ... eId=108748
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060419.001 ... 5-biopower

Pugeot
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070806.002 ... 07-bioflex
Included note regarding changes made to become FFV and increased power on E85

Renault
http://ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=3326


Small engines an E85
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CIS_E ... 7915_7.pdf
http://www.ilcorn.org/Ethanol/Ethan_Stu ... gines.html
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/your_car.htm
http://www.gov.mb.ca/est/energy/ethanol ... ngines.pdf
http://www.drivingethanol.org/userdocs/ ... _Sheet.pdf
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/vehicle/smallEngines.asp
http://www.iowacornethanol.com/document ... engine.pdf
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/1999-01-3345 <--- study on effects of ethanol blended fuels on small engine emissions -- must pay to get full report

Marine engines:
There are some legitimate concerns regarding ethanol added fuels in marine environments which are well covered in this notice by Evinrude.

http://www.evinrude-parts.com/boat_etha ... ution.html
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfgboats.htm
http://www.nmma.org/certification/local ... -07-05.pdf

http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/en ... /32206.pdf <--- NREL report "issues with higher ethanol blends"

di-iso octyl phalate deposits from dissolved resins in fiberglass fuel tanks
http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/en ... _Paper.doc


Useful products that relate to ethanol fuels and problems associated with use of ethanol fuels:

Product to re-suspend a separated ethanol/water phase separation in E-10 fuels contaminated with water.

E-Zorb (MDR-574)
http://www.mdramazon.com/

Commercial fuel test kit to check ethanol content of fuels
http://theoutboardwizard.bizhosting.com ... t_kit.html

Fogging oil for use on engines stored for extended periods of time (ie marine engines )
STA-BIL Fogging Oil
http://www.goldeagle.com/sta-bil/products.htm

Magazine articles
Project "BrightMare" made the cover of Mustang Enthusiast magazine
August issue 2007


Sci Am article from Sept 06 on ethanol


News story on ethanol conversions
http://wcco.com/local/local_story_202091258.html


Indy 500 starts using E100
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/03 ... .html#more

SAE papers
($14) from SAE International (http://www.sae.org). The paper is called "An experimental and modeling investigation into the comparitive knock and performance characteristics of E85, Gasohol, and Regular unleaded gasoline. Paper # 2007-01-0473

E85 carburator conversion articles
(discussion thread - http://e85forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=439)
Feb,07 Mopar Action magazine
http://www.moparts.org/moparts/picture/ ... /Vraa.html

After market E85 carburators

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new ... _chart.pdf

Ethanol studies
Australian E20 study (discussion thread - http://e85forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=437)
http://www.environment.gov.au/atmospher ... soline.pdf

MIT study on direct injection E85
http://www.engr.unl.edu/~ethanol/unl-sae2.pdf

SAE paper on high effeciency ethanol engine
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/g ... 051303.pdf
MIT study on knock suppression on highly turbocharged gasoline/ethanol direct ethanol injection
http://lfee.mit.edu/public/LFEE%202006-01%20RP.pdf

Handbook for Handling storing and dispensing E85
http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/e85_technical_booklet.pdf

The Ohio Fleet study conducted in 1996, http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/fl ... /ohio6.pdf

EPA approves use of Blender Pumps (for FlexFuel Vehicles)
http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /612080311


Ethanol emissions impact studies

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/docum ... hitten.pdf
discusses reductions and possible mechanisms for secondary emissions reductions due to ethanol use in fuels


The wang study clearly shows the lower overall emissions based on analysis of a large number
of independent studies

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/349.pdf
It cites GHG emission reductions of per mile GHG emissions ranging from -2% to to -23% for Corn based Ethanol, and the potential of -64% reduction in per mile GHG emissions for cellulose based Ethanol fuels. (see page 14)


On page 19 you see the range or results coming from some of the studies and it is clear that studies done in the last10 years show consistant reductions in GHG emisssions.

University of Nebraska 1999 Chevy Silverado to E85
http://www.engr.unl.edu/~ethanol/unl-sae2.pdf

Genetically engineered corn for ethanol production.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/ ... n_business

Sept 1979 report to Congress on Gasohol and its potential to reduce fuel imports
http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/ota/Ota_ ... 9/7908.PDF

Ethanol from Alge
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/20 ... ants_x.htm
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7135308.html
http://www.aps.com/general_info/newsrel ... e_358.html

Farmers concern about over production
http://www.iowafarmer.com/articles/2006 ... news10.txt


UL listing of E85 dispensers - related links and docs

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/statesummary.pdf



http://www.usda.gov/oce/energy/aer842_ethanol.pdf
summary of current technology includes interesting references like higher thermal effeciency of ethanol compared to gasoline, due to higher octane.

Also discusses costs and effeciency levels of current and new production methods and secondary impacts due to increased availability of co-products and innovative co-products and supply streams like cheese whey

http://www.usda.gov/oce/EthanolSugarFea ... eport3.pdf
Economic Feasibility of ethanol production from sugar in the U.S.
Include serveral historical references for various crops production, yields, and acerages planted.
Discusses relative effeciency of various sugar feed stocks for ethanol production --
163 gal / ton of sucrose (theoretical)
141 gal / ton of sucrose (practical)

19.5 gal /ton sugar cane
24.8 gal / ton of sugar beets
69.4 gal/ ton of molasses

135.4 gal / ton of raw sugar
141.0 gal/ton of refined sugar


Ethanol usage in racing

http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/E85In ... esults.pdf
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3232639

http://ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=3283
http://domesticfuel.com/?p=2230

http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorspor ... acing.aspx

http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorspor ... zkopf.aspx

http://www.distillersgrains.com/wyomingEthanol.htm

http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorspor ... stics.aspx


water usage in ethanol production and oil production

http://www.swhydro.arizona.edu/archive/ ... ature4.pdf


Hidden cost of oil

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:FZ ... ence(final).doc+SD-419+oil&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us


Senate hearing, Senator Lugar March 30, 2006
http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2006/hrg060330a.html
rtsp://video.webcastcenter.com/srs_g2/foreign033006.rm <http://video.webcastcenter.com:8080/viewsource/template.html?nuyhtgi9ytz6qjrhxdxpk7ye8o6xaf70iEg7 uq8sy7>

http://books.google.com/books?id=qZjg3o ... en#PPA5,M1



http://ndcf.homeip.net/ndcf/energy/NDCF ... _paper.pdf

http://ndcf.homeip.net/ndcf/energy/NDCF ... ed_Oil.pdf

Hotrod on AWDPirates wrote

============
The Jan 2008 HotRod Magazine has an article on E85 that is quite positive on its use as a performance fuel.
(although nothing new in the article that has not known for several years by E85 experimenters)

They have the results of a back to back dyno test of 100 octane race gasoline vs E85 on a 402 CID LS2 , 10.2:1 compression ratio, crate engine, done by Wheel to Wheel Powertrain in Madison Heights Michigan.
Gasoline (100 octane race gas) 540 hp @ 6000 rpm, 509 ft-lb torque @ 5200
E85 ------------------------ 546 hp @ 6000 rpm, 524 ft-lb torque @ 5200

With a turbocharger kit installed fueled on E85 :
13 psi boost -- 850 hp @ 5900 rpm, 833 ft-lb torque @ 5000 rpm
no comparison to gasoline you can't run that kind of boost on it with this engine.

Quote
"There's no sense even trying it with this boost and compression," Urban says."You just can't do this with pump gas" With its knock-stifling 105 road octane, E85 is a pump fuel that performs like race fuel. "I love this stuff," Urban says. "Its high-octane fuel for everyone, 105 you can buy on the road"

And I'm spent.

hmm i read most of the first post and learned alot.. i will read the other one when i have time. Thats alot of info and thanks for supplying it. Questions probably will come soon lol

I wouldn't complain about the $4 a gallon price. Heck I would be pretty freaking happy if it were that here. I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and up here(as well as most of Canada) we are paying around $1.20/liter which works out to $4.54 a gallon. It has been a few years since we were under $1/liter(3.79).

There is also talk that it will go up to 1.40-1.50/liter(~5.50/gallon) this summer *shakes fist*

bupmpity bump bump

bringing this back up since there's been a lot of E85 Q's lately

Dude. WTH. :squint

TLDR. Considered playing SME and paraphrasing that which is relevant to the most recently posted question? Shiiiiiiiit, negro.

ok guys, i been running e-85 for eh close to six months now actually and its friggen awwsome, as i put in my post earlier bout e85 its amazsing i gained a bunch of power, its cheaper and everything, ok low down, for running e-85 with outh leaning out to much you should run at least 400cc injectors if not higher, i run 450cc (4g63 injectors) and a walbro 255 fuel pump and a high flow fuel filter, thats all that needs to be done excepts something capable of tunning it for fuel trims, i run the safc 1 and it works wonders for it. our fuel lines and tanks are a stronger design that withstand the corrosiveness of the methenol in the fuel. i have 2 friends both with 600hp and 1200hp eclipses that run it all day for nearly 2 years now! it is amazing i highly recomend it. i dyno'd in at 210hp before e85 and tune, now after tune i run 245hp and a full tune just on a wideband and safc! so get errr done!!! it works amazing!!

Do you really need greater than 400cc if you're not turbo? 450cc on a N/A seems like overkill to me. 310cc already gives more than the ~20% more fuel needed for e85.

well i figured you were turbo'd sorry. yeah i think that should work just fine. go on to the mods and tech info on here and go to fuel injectors and use that plateform calculation to find out the amount of fuel needed that should give you your range for injector size, but im pretty sure the 310's should work

here in NJ there are no stations but in PA there are a lot, but the cost is 4.10 a gallon,and gas is (super) 4.13 a gallon, with this price for E85 does it still make sense to do the conversion to run e85?

here is a link to a tool to locate an e85 station near you

http://gasprices.mapquest.com/

You sir are getting hosed for e85 prices. most of the e85 stations here are $2.79-2.89

nothing new there, as the sign reads "Welcome to New Jersey, now pay your toll"

I've been running e85 for just over a year now. The shitty part about e85 is the different blends of ethanol based on the season, at least here in MN, e85 in the winter is actually e70. With the different blends based on the season you need multiple tunes to have the greatest benefit off of e85. My set-up is: msns, 880cc injectors, walbro 255lph & the hrc inline pump, and s20g. At 24 psi and an 11.5:1 afr I am seeing 82% duty cycle in megatune. I did lose some cruising gas mileage when converting over to e85, I get 27 mpg on the interstate, but I gained power through being able to advance my timing out a lot and increasing the amount of boost I'm able to run due to the great knock suppression of e85 vs. gasoline.

so im thinking of going e85 mainly for the price, but in the future it would be nice for power. so i figured now would be the best time to get used to the way e85 works. im running 7 lbs of boost using a sfmu, what sized injectors would be recommended? so it calls for 400cc injectors, is that overkill for 7psi and e85?

from what I've been reading, figure what you would need for a safe margin for your boost and add 30-35% you should be good with that kind of size

if your boost requires 400's with e85 you'll want 540-550's

ok i run the 4g63 (450cc) injectors with the 255 wally fuel pump and they run great i got it tuned it runs a little rich but once i hit full boost it leans out quite nicely of course not to lean, but i run 10lbs of boost allday, i think thats what you should do is the 450's

Originally posted by Jungy
I've been running e85 for just over a year now. The shitty part about e85 is the different blends of ethanol based on the season, at least here in MN, e85 in the winter is actually e70. With the different blends based on the season you need multiple tunes to have the greatest benefit off of e85. My set-up is: msns, 880cc injectors, walbro 255lph & the hrc inline pump, and s20g. At 24 psi and an 11.5:1 afr I am seeing 82% duty cycle in megatune. I did lose some cruising gas mileage when converting over to e85, I get 27 mpg on the interstate, but I gained power through being able to advance my timing out a lot and increasing the amount of boost I'm able to run due to the great knock suppression of e85 vs. gasoline.

I'm also at 24psi. 780cc injectors, 11.5:1 AFR (standard gasoline value), and 85% duty cycle. You can gain the cruising gas mileage by leaning it out more than you would with gas. I have the idle set at 16:1. Its about time to order some bigger injectors.