www.neons.org brought me some useful information.


Now, with itb's, your low end torque sucks the fat one. No way to build intake pressure until you're up there on rpms. I'm definately going to have to use megasquirt.

I've heard gas mileage is f-ing horrible with just four straight itb's with velocity stacks chillin' on top of them. I wanted to do a plenum down the line to run boost but it seems i'm going to have to do one outright.


I'm very open to suggestions on how to get this done and keep a reasonable powerband. For balls out racing, i dont think i'd need the plenum. Just a scoop in the hood. This is going to be a street car though. If i were to build a plenum, it would sit up against the firewall if i used the stock intake runners. As long as i can make one to the proper size to keep reasonable pressure at low rpms, i'll be satisfied.

If i were to cut the runners down so i can mount the tb's vertically on a plate/lower plenum, i may be able to pull it off. I'd have to run a vaccum box of some sort and tee off all four tb's. The 01' gsx-r 750's are what i'm looking to score off ebay in the next couple of months and then well get down to business. This would be a hellovalot easier using a neon head but i'm much more comfortable having the exhaust manifold/header being cooled by oncomming air in a less-restrictive spot.

I'll be done replacing the worn out, stock parts of my car in a little bit and then it's play time.

biggest problem with our runners is them not lining up straight, they're offset a bit

best sugestion i saw was to get a stratus intake manifold (all 4 runners are inline) and cut it off at the height you need it.
then youll need to figure out how to attach an adapter plate to a cast manifold.
i saw some people used JB weld but that looked dumb, one i saw actually hacked an OBX manifold and used that as the base.

as for the surge tank, i think your gonna be looking at a sheet metal kinda thing with an adapter for your intercooler pipes.
i thought of doing it in Carbon fibre, but i cant figure out how to seal it to the ITB adapter plates.
then you have to think how your gonna mount the horns in the surge tank itself and how they conect to the ITB's.
i though of intercooler conectors but then i figured it wouldnt be able to support the weight of the tank.
so im thinking that individual V-bands might work

I don't think the 01 750 tb's will be enough. The 420a is 2.67 times the displacement (cams play a major factor in airflow, so I'll compare against displacement only). So, at 7k RPM's in the 420a, you'll be pulling enough air to match the 750 at over 18k RPM. The 1k would be about double, so 7k RPM's will match to about 14k RPM's, which isn't far off from their redline. The busa, though, is a lot closer, as the 420a is 1.54 times bigger. At 7k RPMS, the 420a's pulling the same amount of air as the busa at 10,780 RPM, which is damn near redline (10,600 in gears 1-5 IIRC).

Personally, I'd go with the busa throttle bodies.

You have the right idea about mounting the vertically, though, and your best bet would be to use a tubular intake (a hacked obx, or custom). I don't know if the 01 750 tb's have the secondary butterflies on top, but they're not needed unless you want the fast idle (which you'll have to program the MS to handle). The busa tb's have no secondary butterflies for the fast idle, only a cable, but the 1k's do (05-06 I know for sure, other's, I'm not sure). If you wanted to have a fast idle with the busa TB's, you'll have to go old school and have a pull cable. Since you'll have ZERO idle control with the busa TB's, you may look into the k5/k6 1k TB's to have that functionality.

Since they're all setup with vacuum lines that run together for a MAP sensor, you got that covered; however, you'll have no vacuum source for your brake booster or any other actuator controlled with vacuum. You'll probably have to build a vacuum reservoir to help out here.


This is only speculation below, so take it with the weight of a grain of salt:

the only other issue I see is the placement of the injectors on the TB's. They're designed to squirt almost directly into the cylinder, much like factory placement on the 2gnt, except from the bottom instead of the top where the cut-out is on the intake port. If you have intake tubes that curve roughly 90* to mount the TB's vertically, they'll be squirting at the pipe instead of into the intake port. It's not like perpendicular or anything, only like 30-45 degrees, but I don't know how much affect this will have if they're 5 inches from the intake port. The airflow may just cary the fuel right into the cylinder, though, and not make any difference at all.

Originally posted by foggy45
biggest problem with our runners is them not lining up straight, they're offset a bit best sugestion i saw was to get a stratus intake manifold (all 4 runners are inline) and cut it off at the height you need it. then youll need to figure out how to attach an adapter plate to a cast manifold. i saw some people used JB weld but that looked dumb, one i saw actually hacked an OBX manifold and used that as the base. as for the surge tank, i think your gonna be looking at a sheet metal kinda thing with an adapter for your intercooler pipes. i thought of doing it in Carbon fibre, but i cant figure out how to seal it to the ITB adapter plates. then you have to think how your gonna mount the horns in the surge tank itself and how they conect to the ITB's. i though of intercooler conectors but then i figured it wouldnt be able to support the weight of the tank. so im thinking that individual V-bands might work

I've seen multiple people either A) weld the cast or B) get a stainless flange and some tubing then have at it.... I'm leaning towards the flange/tubing thing and then i'd have to figure out the injector bosses and all that noise. I want EVERYTHING to be at the best possible angle to make this work as smoothly as possible so i'm thinking everyting is going to have to be made from scratch, excluding the tb's. I still haven't decided what will work best. The busa tb's are indeed bigger. I love ebay. Google is giving me a shitstorm of useless crap...as usual.

Having tapered runners that are just long enough to run a surge tank/plenum AND generate a nice amount of idle vac might not be as hard as i thought. If i ran everything offset towards the driver side of the car, i think i can make it happen. I'll play with this a little more on paper during the week. I'm kinda burnt out right now from work. If anyone has anything they'd like to add/help with/criticize, please do.

Oh, a teaser i found on youtube related to injectors. Pertains to the topic, not quite my design but i think you guys will enjoy it.

BMW M3

YouTube.com

Here's a wiki write-up i found for itb's on a 240. The hose/clamps to link the tb's to the portion of stock mani has to be killing a pony or 2 but the dynosheet proves they made a jump in power:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nissan_240SX_Performance_Modification/KA24DE_and_KA24E/ITB%27s

have you looked at the AE86 Black Top ITB set up?
i havent read about the head set up on the toyota engine yet but it looks just like a set of busa ITB's /shrug
ill see what i can find and get back on it
hell for us it might just need an adapter plate to work since it would definatly fit better in the 2GNT then in the neon

Originally posted by foggy45
have you looked at the AE86 Black Top ITB set up?

I did see one on youtube. Such an angry growl.


I need to get some measurments after work today and see how much room we have to work with. This is driving me crazy. I'm losing sleep over it.

had a thought on the vac problem,

since were not using the injectors on the TB's anyway (utalising stock injector mounting) could you JB weld fill 3 of the holes for the GSX injectos and use the last one to conect to a Vacuum distrubution block? or To eliminate any possible issues with a matched tune, run a 4-to-1 set of lines to the Vac block?

from Autospeed Magazine (http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_3049/article.html)
"Interestingly, Mr Gischus points out that OE Nissan individual throttle systems have a small vacuum passage in each bore which connect to a shared log-type chamber. This chamber stores a vacuum signal that’s strong enough to assist the brakes and provide a load signal to the fuel pressure regulator. Idle speed is controlled by a stepper motor bypass."


again just a thought, and the theory sounds good :P

good site w/ drawings and ideas, even some nice CAD stuff
and most things are for sale (most bolt on stuff is for the B16A but you get the idea
www.jenvey.co.uk

check out the FAQ section

That's what i was thinking about the tb's injector ports.

Perfect for gaining vaccum. I also figured that i'd need to have the vac source behind the throttles. It COULD work using vaccum ports on the plenum itself but i dont know how much vaccum it would retain during idle/braking.

I"ve seen people close all the ports off but one for the brake booster. To get the most out of it, i think i'll have a vac port on each tb and run them to a box. I wonder if there's any way to boost the vaccum mechanically without using a pump. Some sort of bypass flapper that never really closes or something.... That doesn't make any sense. Lol.

I read alot on that first article. I'll read the rest later. Thanks for those tidbits of info.

Have you ditched your itb dreams or just sitting on it for a while?

Originally posted by 2GeclipseRS
Have you ditched your itb dreams or just sitting on it for a while?

nah ive thought about it quite a bit a few years ago, then i decided to go turbo so i thought i had to ditch the idea since you mainly see itb's on NA screamers. then i saw a Skyline in a magazine and i recognised the intake configuration as being ITB. after researching it a bit i discovered i can still do it and be turbo.
hence the revitilization of my intrest. :)
eventhough i need another project for this car like i need a hole in my head, it still is somthign that i want to incorporate into my finalized engine build

*high fives*

For vacuum, the way I see it is to have the four TB's have their own port with a line from each to a common junction with one line from the junction to a canister. On that one line, have a one-way check valve to help hold vacuum. It may work better with the check valves on each TB so you don't get any cross-talk (for lack of a better term). Then, run your brake booster off the canister/vacuum reservoir.

At an idle, combining all 4 TB's will supply OK vacuum. IIRC, the 4-way mercury gauges showed around 32-35 inches from each TB on my busa at 1200 RPM. But that's each one isolated.

I really thought about doing this on my car before I sold it. I had the TB's layin around and everything. I hope you pull it off.

One way check valve. Thanks. That's what i was thinking of. My main concern is having my brakes work properly. I dont have a really great understanding of how the master cylinder uses vaccum to gain mechanical advantage over the braking system. Then again, the most vaccum is generated in the intake manifold when the throttle is closed and the stock manifold holds enough to stop me just fine. If i used a canister that was the same volume as the stock intake, in theory i should be fine. Right?

You would think it would work just fine, only one way to find out.

As far as the check valve, check out http://www.crotchrocket.com/fiche_section_detail.asp

Select motorcycle, suzuki, 2002, then hayabusa and click go.

In the drop down menu, change it to "Air Cleaner".

16 is your check valve, and 22 is the vacuum canister. It's a small one, but you get the idea.

I might have a spare check valve and canister laying around, but I think I threw it away already.

I have a few check valves laying around. Making a canister shouldn't take me more than an 1-2 hours. That one for the busa is small but due to it being a bike it's practical. Like i said, as long as my canister holds like the stock mani, there wont be a problem. Correcting the a/f ratio with megasquirt is going to be a long, drawn out thing. I'll have to re-map when i have all my turbo components ready to go which will be double the headache. The turbo i want is an internally gated t3 series garrett turbo that's good for 7psi and up to 270hp. 170 bucks shipped from spooled. This wonderful experiment will be done on a stock bottom end until i break something....lol.

Your insight on the matter has been pretty fucking awesome. When i had the idea to tackle the job, i was pretty clueless. Every itb thread i came across on neons.org threw up question and concern about vaccum. I'm going to look alot more into the matter and see what others are doing as far as itb/turbo goes. My plans right now seem pretty straight foward and will get the job done but i'm willing to adapt if i find something better that makes more sense.

Edit: I was reading this http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=256820&start=25&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=itb+turbo thread and had an interesting idea. In an N/A car, the itb's allow each cylinder to get a shitload of air with restriction being next to none. Throttle body size vs power/reliability has to do alot with the length and shape of the runners, right?

In a turbo app, the throttles can only grab as much air as the turbo can provide. In theory, a low-boost atmostphere using a large plenum, i can go with smaller throttle bodies to maintain driveability. Sweet. Since boost builds progressivly in relation to rpm, I dont see why it would be a problem or cause any more restriction than running a traditional intake manifold with smooth runners and a large, single tb. Another thing i found out is putting a port for the upper ic pipe on the side of the plenum sends the air surging across the tops of the throttle bodies instead of directly into them. The intake port on the plenum would have to be directly infront of the tb's velocity stacks forcing air straight into them and would have to be shaped something like a wide vaccum cleaner attachment.

Though, it seems that the neon guys think it's pointless to itb a turbo car. It is overly-complicated but that's what makes it fun. The tech aspects of the setup just picks at people's brains and that's why i got interested in it.

If i can't get it done and working right, i will just turbo this car and pick up another 2gnt to build into an N/A using the itb manifold i built for my current car. Win/win situation either way i look at it.

can Megasquirt possibly do TPS versus rpm and boost?
or do you think we still have to tune via a MAP system?
i thought about getting an airflow meter from somthing like a 300Z or somthing like that and using that to tune with.
i guess im still a MSnS nub and dont really know the restrictions or limitations of tuning (ie MAP only or could i switch to a Mass airflow meter setup)

and from what im reading, most people say that you can get the breaking vacuum reliably off one TB, so doing the "Log" idea sounds like the best option we got so far. :thumbsup

haha this is so fun i dont even care that my wife is gonna freak and make me sleep on the couch for this one.

My friends are going to freak when they dont see me for months at a time from working on this. My friend sean had to pry me off of the computer to get me to grab some beers and watch the simpsons movie. I'm addicted now. I'm even more addicted to doing this on the tightest possible budget. I dont care if i blow my stock bottom end either! Lol.

Neons.org and homemadeturbo have my head spinning!

As far as megasquirt.....lol. I'm looking at a unit right now.

http://www.rs-autosport.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=249

That's not bad for a fully built unit SPECIFIC to our engine. Maybe somebody who's lurking this thread can chime in and let us know if that's a complete kit with everything we need. *hint*

Somebody who has experience with megasquirt will probably have to help us as I have no freaking clue how it works. A couple months ago, i was thinking "hell, this is going to be cake. MSD ignition box to retard/advance timing as i need, a 1:1 fpr, a/f gauge and an SAFC will get this motor to do what i want." I wish it was that easy.

I found a kit while browsing (i have insomnia because of my car). It's a little pricey. I'm not going to buy it but i thought it was cool.

http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=57_49_32&products_id=121

I will probably jump on this little gem though.

http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=127

I think it'll hold up to 7psi. If not...well, i need not elaborate. *shudders* Let's just say i'll be making the phonecall of phonecalls to tweak it performance.

Btw, while i'm doing my witch hunt, any 1:1 rising rate fprs out there that dont require a return line? I've been looking but most dont say or require a return. :shrug

For the intake runners on a turbo, reverse engineer a header and get a raised cowl hood and send the charge directly to each TB via the header (cut the flange off) over the valve cover. You'd have one inlet that splits into 4 long runners.

Inside the airbox of most i4 bikes are two short velocity stacks and two longer velocity stacks. The shorter ones work better for top end (high flow, typically over 8-10k RPM+) and the longer ones provide a little better velocity and help low end torque. They run mixed to help bet the best of both worlds. If you were to reverse engineer a header, you'd have really long runners to help with velocity, but they may be too small to flow properly NA. Boosted may not be an issue, though.

The problem with converting to a MAF system is having an airbox that will meter the air. NA this may suck because you'll have to build it big enough to not restrict airflow, where as you could just go with 4 individual cone air filters with the MAP setup.

I don't know that I can provide anything else after this.

I'd love to put a cowl hood on my car and have the intake manifold reaching over the headers but this is a street car. I drive it everyday. It's hard enough to see over the hood as it is. I'm probably going to use J-shaped runners before the plenum to get the most length out of them to equalize flow as much as possible. This isn't exactly going to be the car of cars. Everything including my turbo kit is going to run me about $1500. I'm not expecting to break records, just get it working. They'll always be room for improvement but the main thing is getting this system to work on the 2gnt.

As far as tuning goes..... I'm going to boost the car first and tune at 7psi without the itb's and then tune with. I strongly believe that i'm going to have to cam the engine to get the most out of things. That'll happen sooner or later. Sooner if the car runs like crap even after a re-map with megasquirt.

Thanks darkone.

Oh well. I'm going to see if a friend of mine salvaged the aem 1:1 fpr off his honda before it got sent to the crusher.

definatly agree that tuning this set up with a MAF for NA would be counter productive as the plenum will restrict too much.

also agreeing that you need cams to take advantage of this set up.
personally im starting with a set of crower 2 turbo's and going from there.

going the turbo route would be easier for the runner design since they will need to be longer anyway to keep it out of the firewall :P
Corky Bell said that the most important thing in manifold design is smooth transitions and direction changes.
so a nice "C" or gracefull "L" runner design should put it close proximity to the stock manifold.

the size of the Plenum needed kinda bothers me though.
Mr. Bell sez again that plenum size is a function of engine displacement 50%-75%. but he dosent say whether its larger or smaller then engine displacement.
anybody know?

if you look at some of the indy champ V-8's the plenums are kinda small, but crank horsepower and RPM's. and the high horsepower Supras and Skylines have what looks like a 4 liter plenum.

i dont really know which way to go, i think ill talk to the guys at Magnus and see if they can help.

Originally posted by foggy45
definatly agree that tuning this set up with a MAF for NA would be counter productive as the plenum will restrict too much. also agreeing that you need cams to take advantage of this set up. personally im starting with a set of crower 2 turbo's and going from there. going the turbo route would be easier for the runner design since they will need to be longer anyway to keep it out of the firewall :P Corky Bell said that the most important thing in manifold design is smooth transitions and direction changes. so a nice "C" or gracefull "L" runner design should put it close proximity to the stock manifold. the size of the Plenum needed kinda bothers me though. Mr. Bell sez again that plenum size is a function of engine displacement 50%-75%. but he dosent say whether its larger or smaller then engine displacement. anybody know? if you look at some of the indy champ V-8's the plenums are kinda small, but crank horsepower and RPM's. and the high horsepower Supras and Skylines have what looks like a 4 liter plenum. i dont really know which way to go, i think ill talk to the guys at Magnus and see if they can help.

Plenum size....meh. It's probably the smallest issue we'll run into. Well, maybe i'm just speaking for myself. I'm only going to be running 7 psi so anything that is close to the volume of the stock mani should be fine. I've kinda set my "built motor" plans aside for right now due to this fish itching to get fried. I've never seen any itb/turbo apps have anything out of the ordinary as far as plenums go.


A half moon shaped plenum with the inlet running at the same curvature as the tank is what we need to keep turbulence to a minumum. I also believe that this design is perfect because the air doesn't have the opportunity to bounce around in there much. It'll follow the curves while getting sucked straight into the runners. I dont think it makes a huge difference using something like that over something that looks like a fart can with an endcap on it but i'm sure it helps.

Look at this for the 4AGE powered AE86 corolla. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOTA-4AGE-20V-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-Levin-AE92-AE86-4AG_W0QQitemZ140142924018QQihZ004QQcategoryZ36474QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Strangely enough, i was trying to describe something like that by using words such as "banana", and "angles" but the picture speaks for itself. I found the picture shortly after and was relieved that i didn't have to atempt to tackle drawing one in paint. Lol.

Let me know what you think.

I'm really starting to hate how limited we are by under-hood space in these cars. Had the 2g's bay been extended rougly 1.5-2", this wouldn't be so damn difficult to plot. Haha. By all means, talk to your people and see what they have to add.

Originally posted by 2GeclipseRS
Btw, while i'm doing my witch hunt, any 1:1 rising rate fprs out there that dont require a return line? I've been looking but most dont say or require a return. :shrug

All regulators require a return.

itb's will not loose as much low end as everyone thinks, putting a plenum on the itb's will limit there potential compared to not having one and if ur gonna go turbo do bother trying to do itb's just build a plenum manifold and put a 75mm t-body on it or something similar. i used stock throttle bodies for mine and they work great! if ur going all motor then itb's FTMFW!

PM sent

mine are for a sohc neon though........

<[/img>

Originally posted by AMM
mine are for a sohc neon though........ <[/img>

I knew those would eventually pop up.



Contact me Mike.

i thought they would have been up before i did it actually with the guys above looking around on the org and all. and yes i got ur message sir. im gonna start on the manifold this weekend along with a dohc neon manifold thats going up for a dyno challenge vs another custom manifold, an indy manifold, a ported stock manifold and a extrude honed manifold.


mike

Originally posted by AMM
i thought they would have been up before i did it actually with the guys above looking around on the org and all. and yes i got ur message sir. im gonna start on the manifold this weekend along with a dohc neon manifold thats going up for a dyno challenge vs another custom manifold, an indy manifold, a ported stock manifold and a extrude honed manifold. mike

'appreciate, Mike. But, damn, your a busy man. Be sure that you know your priority is me :thumbsup


J/K, good luck with the challenge. I'll be watching for it on the cousin site, it sounds really interesting.

I didn't think to ask earlier but do you have any pics of your throttle linkage?

that sir is the million dolar question which nobody has yet to see an answer to. i have no pics of it for a reason. sounds shady i know but i want to be different here........... it took me 3 days to figure out how i was gonna get the throttle setup to work. everyone always does the throttles horizontally and i wanted mine vertical to be different and not to mention its cooler. sorry sir.


mike

It's cool. Your setup is actually pretty smart. I have a good idea on how the linkage can be done....well two good ideas.

After seeing alot of different setups and having so many options, i need to sit back on this for a while before spending the money i have saved up for the project.



My gst wheels are sitting in my room collecting dust and my suspension could use a work-over. I'll dip into the fund and get that done. The lightbulb isn't shining as brightly as it could be. When in doubt, waste money on something else.

Originally posted by AMM
im gonna start on the manifold this weekend along with a dohc neon manifold thats going up for a dyno challenge vs another custom manifold, an indy manifold, a ported stock manifold and a extrude honed manifold.

Lets us know how that challange goes? Sounds interesting.

will do... the dyno day is set for sept 12th so hopefully all goes according to plan.

mike

I'm checking out your portwork and manifolds on .org right now.

HOLY SHIT!!!!!

You sir, are my hero.

headers and turbo manifold to come sir............ actually right now im working on a ram horn style turbo manifold for a 2gn gsx eclipse and log style turbo manifold for a 1st gsx eclipse. i think im gonna start a little project log in the 4g63 tech area on the 2gn car. its getting a 2.3 stroker, my head, intake and turbo mnaifold along with a gt4088 turbo, hks 272's, aem EMS, etc, etc, etc. looking for around 700 whp on that car......... should be pretty sweet when its done.


mike

"pretty sweet" is an understatement.

HKS 272's make the 4g63 sound mean as fuck. Makes me want a gsx badly. Project rs-t and project Daily Drifter 240 come first though.

Get this going so I can buy one. lol, seriously.

OK, someone make an f***ing itb setup. I remember seeing some threads a while back about people saying "I'm going for the itb setup" and then I never hear anything again. So, all who have finished or attempted, please update. :)

Contact AMM on this board.

His rig is a secret..... :D


I'm working on it guys.

Money doesn't grow on trees and i've had to shell out for birthdays and holidays.

On a side note, i finally got 2 of my 5 spoke gst spyder rims on. 2 more to go....lol.

Originally posted by 2GeclipseRS
His rig is a secret.....

True, but I suspect he would be interested in selling a set or two. If you guys haven't seen the video he made with it installed on his Neon, you should search him out on Neons.org and watch that shit. It's crazy delicious.

He told me that his setup on a stock neon took a second off his et.

If you ask me, that's a good fucking investment.

im not a really good driver but my stock sohc neon with a mopar computer and no rear engine mount went 16.8 & 9 @ 83 & 84. bolted on the itb's and went 16.0 with a 4 mph increase. now i went back to the track 2 weeks later and ran all stock except for the mopar computer and i also installed a slid mount in the rear and i went 16.0 @ 85 (with a 2.2 60ft)??? im guessing with the itb's on then i could have went mid to low 15's.


throttle is very touchy and responsive with them. i wouldnt try running these on a DD unless u have filters on each hole and some way to tune it (MS). oh the sound is awesome!


http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/killingmachine99/?action=view¤t=Mikescarnew004.flv


AMM

oh the sound is awesome!

Gotta see the vid. It funny (in a cool kind of way). Think Subaru :P

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/killingmachine99/?action=view¤;t=Mikescarnew004.flv AMM

Mike, what's this link for? I got nothing.

Check you PM's

Originally posted by bullettdsm

oh the sound is awesome!

Gotta see the vid. It funny (in a cool kind of way). Think Subaru :P

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/killingmachine99/?action=view¤;t=Mikescarnew004.flv AMM

Mike, what's this link for? I got nothing. Check you PM's

fixed the link sir.........

I like this one...

s125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/killingmachine99/?action=view¤t=itb042.flv

I wonder if a set up like this would shave a full second off Mark's car. If we can Mark (or any other all motor 2GNT) below 13.5 with AMM gear (ITB, LTH, SMIM, etc.), you've pretty much got free advertising on this site for at least a year, Mike.

Originally posted by DR1665
I like this one... s125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/killingmachine99/?action=view¤t=itb042.flv I wonder if a set up like this would shave a full second off Mark's car. If we can Mark (or any other all motor 2GNT) below 13.5 with AMM gear (ITB, LTH, SMIM, etc.), you've pretty much got free advertising on this site for at least a year, Mike.

WOO WOO! =P

Originally posted by DR1665
.....If we get can Mark (or any other all motor 2GNT) below 13.5......

I hate to make predictions BUT, with the excellent support of a couple of highly qualified members on here (Mr. Peachy and Mr Mike), I strongly suspect that we will be there in the spring :thumbsup

Originally posted by bullettdsm

Originally posted by DR1665 .....If we get can Mark (or any other all motor 2GNT) below 13.5......

I hate to make predictions BUT, with the excellent support of a couple of highly qualified members on here (Mr. Peachy and Mr Mike), I strongly suspect that we will be there in the spring :thumbsup

Well shit! For once, I forgot your record. My 13.5 number was based on seeing one of your timeline posts, reporting 14.3xx. I should have known better! Let's make that 12.999. If anyone can do it...

Originally posted by DR1665
Let's make that 12.999.

You suck :wavy Low 13's will be hard enough :whoa . Always gotta up the ante, eh, lol?